A/e Concertinas

[Roger Hare]

This is a follow-up to Jody Kristals post from a couple of days ago about bellows, but as it

is wildly away from the original topic, I thought I'd better start a new thread.

 

JK says that his A/E instrument does not get used very much because there's not much

music for that key combination. However he mentions Playford, and it is possible that

I may eventually want to use Playford as a source of tunes (if we are talking about Playfords

English Dancing Master).

 

I assume (by analogy with a C/G instrument) that the addition of 'extra' keys to a basic

20-button A/E instrument would expand the range of keys available in a similar way.

For example, an extra C#/Eb key on a C/G instrument(*) would allow the keys of

C, G, D, Am and Em. So, on an A/E instrument the addition of a Bb/C key would allow

the keys of A, E, B, C#m and F#m.

 

So would an A/E instrument with a third row with a few 'accidentals' be a 'good idea'

in such a situation?

 

Sorry for all these questions, but I'm at the bottom of a steep learning curve....

 

Thanks.

 

Roger

 

(*) Like on a Marcus Traveller.

Edited January 28, 2015 by lachenal74693

[StuartEstell]

Roger, the brief answer is yes. But...

 

Personally I wouldn't get too hung up on keys relative to Playford - there are plenty of tunes in there that are in G minor, F etc. It's probably more useful (and cheaper!) to learn some basic transposition skills so that you can put the tunes into the keys that will fit on the instrument(s) that you have.

[wayman]

A longer answer: really not worth it, unless it's your fifth anglo or so. Get a C/G, a G/D, and a Bb/F and I think you're able to handle just about everything in the ECD/Playford repertoire.

 

The G/D ably covers the tunes in A (though you could play them on a 30-button C/G, too).

The C/G ably covers the tunes in F.

And the Bb/F is really good for all those two-flat tunes (Bb and Gm) and three-flat tunes (Eb and Cm). Much harder to play these on a C/G.

 

In America, "The Barnes Book of English Country Dance Tunes" (1986) is *the* book which covers the ECD/Playford repertoire of America for the past thirty years, with 436 dances/tunes ranging from the very well-known to the still-pretty-obscure, and from 1651 to the 1980s. A second volume was recently published, with another 400-odd tunes of recent composition and popularity plus more recent reconstructions from old sources. Skimming through the first volume ...

 

Tunes in five #s ( B ): zero

Tunes in four #s (E or C#m): zero

 

(And I can only think of two tunes in E which are commonly played for contras or squares, "Calliope House" and "Cowboy Jig". And there's a new-ish hot tune by Keith Murphy whose name I forget.)

 

English dances whose tunes are written in three #s (A or F#m) are more plentiful -- I count 35 -- but ... it's not really that high.

 

Of the 35 tunes written in A, several are commonly played in G (eg, Speed the Plough, Gathering Peascods). (And you *could* play any of them in G, or C, or any key ... it's just a question of whether you can convince your bandmates.)

 

There are some chestnuts (at least, they're old favorites in the Philadelphia ECD community, but community repertoires vary widely!) written in A (eg, Prince WIlliam, The Bishop, Geud Man of Ballangigh, Sun Assembly, Long Odds, and others) which are always played in A in my experience, but again, a G/D will hold you in very good stead for these.

 

And a number that are less common but still well-known. Maybe about 25 of the 35 are somewhere between fondly familiar and rather popular, in my experience?

 

But there are a lot of these 35 which I've never heard played or danced in nineteen years of English Country Dancing in Philadelphia, Boston, and Amherst! Perhaps, somewhere in the world, Crosbey Square, Sybil's Au Revoir, and Rural Sports are familiar favorites, or perhaps they're great cracking tunes just waiting for their moment to shine. Technically they up the percentage of dances written in three #s ... but they shouldn't really be taken into account here! (But if you know and love any of those tunes, I'd like to hear about it )

Edited January 28, 2015 by wayman

[Mike Franch]

Seconding Wayman on the utility of the Banes Book of English Country Dance Tunes, although got a little chuckle over the "recently published" Vol. 2, as it's been about ten years. (Of course, some of us play concertinas ten times or more older than that!)

 

Also, as Wayman says, the popular dances vary from community to community, but aside from playing for dances, many of these are just great tunes. You'll find a number of lovely O'Carolan tunes. I understand that English country dance in England tends to be less tethered to these tunes than in the U.S.

 

I notice that Paul Hardy's excellent Session Tunebook has some Playford dances in keys that would be more friendly to Anglos. For example, Barnes has Margaret's Waltz (a modern English country dance) in A, but Hardy has it in G. Same for Prince William, and I'm sure for others as well.

[Kelteglow]

On the same subject playing in different keys, The easy or common key for Guitar is E .Of all the three more common anglos that have been mentioned ie C/G G/D Bb/F .Has anyone an oppinion which would be better for playing in E? Bob (Ps I wish this site had a spell checker)

Edited January 29, 2015 by KelTekgolow

[StuartEstell]

On the same subject playing in different keys, The easy or common key for Guitar is E .Of all the three more common anglos that have been mentioned ie C/G G/D Bb/F .Has anyone an oppinion which would be better for playing in E? Bob (Ps I wish this site had a spell checker)

 

Of the three, G/D is "sharpest" - so E is closest around the circle of fifths to one of its home keys. Playing in E on a G/D is like playing in A on a C/G.

 

However, playing in E on a C/G isn't too bad (if a bit fiddly), particularly if it's a Jeffries layout and you have a C#/D# both ways in the right hand. For chords you've got E and C# minor on the push, A either way, and B almost either way. The Wheatstone layout is a little more limiting from a harmonic perspective.

 

You can always get a guitarist to tune down

Edited January 29, 2015 by StuartEstell

[Tradewinds Ted]

Even easier than tuning down from E to D, get the guitarist to capo up three frets from E to G. Then you can easily play along on either the G/D or C/g

 

I'm lucky, my wife likes to play guitar in G, although she likes A even better, which means capoing up to C (My main instrument is a 20 button anglo, so key of A isn't usually possible for me.) Either that or I play key of A on a low E whistle, and let the concertina rest a bit.

 

It gets trickier if trying to match a singing range, because that may fix the tune to an oddball key. The guitar can usually adjust with capo and/or transposed chords, but the 20 button anglo concertina not so well.

[Wolf Molkentin]

On the same subject playing in different keys, The easy or common key for Guitar is E .Of all the three more common anglos that have been mentioned ie C/G G/D Bb/F .Has anyone an oppinion which would be better for playing in E? Bob (Ps I wish this site had a spell checker)

 

I'd doubt very much Emaj being the common key for the guitar. Instead, it's rather Cmaj/Amin (including the chords of Fmaj, Dmin - or an occasional Dmaj - and Emin or Emaj) and Gmaj/Emin (including the chords of Cmaj, Amin - or an occasional Amaj - and Bmin - the only barre chord - or Bmaj) IMO, which would be obviously leading to the C/C anglo once again...

 

However, would I play the anglo I would most likely go for a G/D because I really like the richer sound (which would be true for an A/E I'd guess, but the keys are too sharp for fitting with at least my needs...).

Edited January 30, 2015 by blue eyed sailor

[Anglo-Irishman]

I'd doubt very much Emaj being the common key for the guitar. Instead, it's rather Cmaj/Amin

 

 

I share your doubts, Wolf!

 

Admittedly, blues-oriented guitarists love the key of E major because the tonic and subdominant (E and A) are on the open bass strings, which lends a lot of "Oompf!" to a Blues accompaniment.

 

If you stick a guitar in my hand, however, I'll automatically start paying in C major, or if that doesn't suit the singers, G major. If the fluter calls for D major, that's oK by me, and G major is quite relaxed. I like A major for some tunes - no problem. I've even composed a guitar-accompanied song in E minor.

The folk guitarists I play British Isles/German songs with have similar preferences, whereby some of them even use a capo on the 2nd fret and finger C for D major.

The way to get a really dirty look from the guitarists is to suggest playing somenting in F major (BTW, the second-easiest key on the classic banjo, after C)

 

In a nutshell, the preferred major key for folk guitarists is C, and the preferred keys for fiddlers are G and D (I used to play the fiddle a little, too!) So, in folk circles, I've found the C/G Anglo to be quite adequate for the keys that my group (guitars and fiddle) are comfortable in.

 

Cheers,

John

[StuartEstell]

Although F sounds lovely on guitar. If I need to play in F, I'll either drop the bottom string to D and then play in D with a capo on 3rd, or open tune to C major with capo 5. My very favourite guitar tuning, though, is open Bb - from the bottom, F - Bb - D - F - Bb - D; it has a really beautiful resonance to it.

 

I have no real idea of the ratio of guitarists who use alternate tunings to those who don't, but I would have thought that the majority of more experienced players will have done a degree of experimentation. Regardless of the instrument, I think it's always a good to find different ways to do things.

[Anglo-Irishman]

I have no real idea of the ratio of guitarists who use alternate tunings to those who don't, but I would have thought that the majority of more experienced players will have done a degree of experimentation. Regardless of the instrument, I think it's always a good to find different ways to do things.

Stuart,

I don't know the ratio either, but I would say that the EADGBE guitarists and the open-tuning guitarists are two different breeds of musician.

To make this a bit more concertina-relevant, I see a vague parallel with Duet players and Anglo players, respectively. Open tunings make playing in one or two keys very easy and full-sounding (like on the Anglo) but a capo is indispensable, whereas the classical tuning gives you a wider range of keys, but requires more dexterity (like the Duets), so you don't need a capo so often.

 

I personally play a Spanish guitar in the "native" tuning of EADGBE and a German Waldzither in its "native" tuning of CGCEG (open C). I find that each has its advantages and disadantages, as do the Anglo and the Crane Duet.

 

Cheers,

John

[JimLucas]

I have no real idea of the ratio of guitarists who use alternate tunings to those who don't, but I would have thought that the majority of more experienced players will have done a degree of experimentation. Regardless of the instrument, I think it's always a good to find different ways to do things.

 

I have no idea of the numbers, but I have observed that there are quite a few guitarists who use tunings other than the classical standard... for each of song accompaniment, tune accompaniment, and melody-plus. Two of the more popular seem to be DADGAD and dropped-D, though I know there are others.

 

And the number who use more than one tuning is small, but not negligible. Some of those will retune during a performance; others keep separate guitars for each tuning.

[wayman]

Likewise, I know a lot of trad fiddlers who switch between GDAE, AEAE, and other tunings during sessions or dances, prefering different tunings for different tunes or sets because of the keys and potential for drones or double-stops. Banjo players, too, for their own inscrutable banjo reasons

[Roger Hare]

I waited a few days to allow the dust to settle before following-up. As always,

thank you all for those helpful replies, which have also helped expand my slight

knowledge of musical theory.

 

The remarks about changing tunings on the guitar were interesting. Before I

saw the light, and bought a concertina, I was the world's worst guitarist. Even

I, bad as I was had experimented with different tunings on the guitar.

 

Thanks again.

 

Roger

[adrian brown]

 

However, playing in E on a C/G isn't too bad (if a bit fiddly), particularly if it's a Jeffries layout and you have a C#/D# both ways in the right hand. For chords you've got E and C# minor on the push, A either way, and B almost either way. The Wheatstone layout is a little more limiting from a harmonic perspective.

 

 

I'd second that Stuart. Playing with a LH accompaniment, I want to try to keep the melody as far as possible on the RH side, so some tunes will be a lot easier in E than in A just because of their range. Tunes that go down to the dominant are going to be easier in E whereas tunes that only go down to the tonic will often be easier in A. On my 38 layout, I don't even have a high e-flat, (having a g# in both directions is far more useful) so the squeeze can come from the top too :-)

 

Adrian

[Jack Campin]

Is JK's concertina actually labelled as being in A/E, or is it a high pitch Bb/F instrument?

 

If the latter, it wants to meet my "C" clarinet, bought in Prague in a non-working state and fixed up back home. It turned out to be in old "high" pitch, so it's actually a clarinet in C#. Sounds terrific but not a lot of use for playing with anybody except fourth-fret singers.