MatthewVanitas Posted September 22, 2014 Author Share Posted September 22, 2014 (edited) I didn't mean to distract folks with the string thing, just thought it was cool. My understanding is that for this first, good-quality MIDI instrument, folks want standard bellows. So for the time being, shall we just put a pin in the MIDI instrument will have standard concertina bellows, utilize the existing air-pressure sensor for dynamics, and the bellows will have to be sourced from other than Jordan, possibly that Irish maker or someone @ ~€150 ? If we can slap the table on that, we can move on to fretting about buttons, and once we get the button problem solved it's "just" a matter of sketching out features, taking orders and deposits, run a prototype, etc. Not that said are instantaneous, but they're known standard business procedure, whilst figuring out buttons is taking us a moment. Any last objections to proper leather concertina bellows, comprising €150 of the final price, from anyone here with at least moderate intent to purchase one? EDIT: can anyone think of any similar item with buttons close together? Does Roland use a real traditional lever action with magnets in their e-accordions, or are the buttons themselves electronics? Quite possibly dumb layman question: when we're talking about switches being too big to fit together close enough, we're talking about the body, not the actual button the finger hits, right? So we can't just have a larger switch below the "frets" with a much smaller button stacked atop it and poking out? Edited September 22, 2014 by MatthewVanitas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewPollock Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 I came out of lurking and made an account so that I could chime in. I cannot commit to purchasing one of the end products, but I can say that I'm very interested. It depends on the final estimated cost and how my finances sit at crunch time. I am a long way from outgrowing my current setup, but I'll likely never be able to justify the portion of disposable income that a comparable acoustic would cost. Therefore count me as strongly interested. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_holden Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 In my opinion, a traditional action and reed switches is the best option for reliability and button feel (long travel, low spring force, not 'clicky'). It's also the only practical way I can think of to make the bellows respond in a similar way to an acoustic concertina if that is what you want (i.e. no air flow when no buttons are pressed, increased air flow when multiple buttons are pressed at once). (Commenting as somebody else who has put a lot of thought into how to build an electronic concertina, not as a potential buyer.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Taylor Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 The bodies of keyboard switches are too big. I suggested keyboard switches as they seem to be the only switches designed for a similar application (typing vs. playing an instrument), all of the other switches that I looked at seemed to be designed and built for much less onerous applications. FWIW. Most computer keyboards these days do not use this quality of mechanical switch, they use a membrane based system that really is nowhere near as good. Gamers demand very high quality keyboards so that they can fire their missiles quickly and reliably (really) and they are willing to pay hundreds of dollars for a keyboard with real mechanical switches. I don't know what Roland uses, but they probably kept the equivalent of an action board and if you have an action board then the you have more choices in the style of switch that you can use. Probably a non-electromechanical switch like an opto-interruptor, a reed switch or a Hall-effect sensor which can be activated/deactivated by lifting/lowering a pad. I think that Jason used one of these types of switches in the Lachenal conversion? But you don't have action boards and action boards for 7" 64B Hayden would be a non-trivial project. I think that you are proposing building almost all of the parts of a concertina except the reed pan and the reeds, and adding in the midi electronics. I do not want to be a downer, but this sounds like hundreds of hours of work and thousands of dollars if you pay somebody else to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Łukasz Martynowicz Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 @ Roland: as I did wrote before - Roland uses what is called "Dynamic Bellows Behavior" only in their most expensive models. As it is also a "newly developed" feature, I really don't think, that they use traditional lever system… Here is the only inside view I could find: http://www.accordionists.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=803 The model here is the FR-1xb, which don't have this technology. Clearly Roland uses some kind of keayboard switches - accordion spaced keyboard could indeed be made using any standard komputer keyboard switches, so why bother with levers and reed switches? I think that Dynamic Bellows Behaviour" is a fancy name for some kind of a fast responsing servo coupled with an aperture. @Matthew: I think that it is not the bellows or pressure sensor that needs to be "pinned" out of the way, but the most basic level of OBJECTIVE here. And we have a couple of contradicting to choose from: 1. Make a controller that acts as closely as possible to the real thing. This option leads us to real action, leather bellows and traditional one-at-a-time production methods and a cost of few k$. Unfortunately the price tag for Wakker MIDI is no longer listed on their site. 2. Make some compromises and build a "close enough" instrument in batches counting in dozens at a time. This would mean ordering some chineese 48b Englishes to salvage boxes and action, ask Jordan to design the electronics for such box and find a concertina maker/repairer to rearrange the action for a Hayden and make new endplates. This approach might result in an instrument costing around 1k$ 3. Make an entire new box from scratch, intended for mass production. This is where the fun begins and we can unleash our imagination of using custom conductive rubber keyboards, servo-controlled bellows resistance, custom action boards, cast plastic or CNC machined boxes etc… The "only" drawback here is that this is a serious enterprise with a need for a factory AND large enough market to cover at least initial production costs counted in 10s or even small 100s k$. 4. Go "OpenSource" Collectively design a set of cad/cam files for 3D printers/milling machines to make a "kit" fiting the electronics designed by Jordan or design electronics by ourselves. This could include options for milling in wood and brass or for 3D printing both boxes and action parts. It would require individual assembly and some third party parts and of course the bellows supplier or some sort of "open source" replacement. But it seems that no person here with any DIY or production experience and knowledge is interested in going Open Source. Same as Don, I don't want to be a downer, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to mix those quite freely in seek of "the holy grail" of MIDI concertinas: a batch counted in 10s, with the quality of the real thing, possibly done with the modern techniques that suit batches of 100s/1000s and designed as an OpenSource or KickStarter project, most hopefully by a third party… And costing no more than a 1000$... I think that you might succeed with approach no. 2 if you can find enough people interested in common design to pay Jordan for designing the electronics and find a willing maker/repairer to put these boxes together. You might also succeed in convincing Wim to make a single small MIDI Hayden for yourself based upon his previous design. Options 3 & 4 seem rather unlikely, as I can think of no KickStarter revolutionary controller that made it to broader audience and even KickStarter projects require substancial investments to gather audience (usually you have to have at least a prototype or a good CGI and a whole bunch of marketing material). Not to mention a very, very limited market for such concertina... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Taylor Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 ... 2. Make some compromises and build a "close enough" instrument in batches counting in dozens at a time. This would mean ordering some chineese 48b Englishes to salvage boxes and action, ask Jordan to design the electronics for such box and find a concertina maker/repairer to rearrange the action for a Hayden and make new endplates. This approach might result in an instrument costing around 1k$... I think that you might succeed with approach no. 2 ... Unfortunately, I think that the Chinese manufacturers (other than Wim's people) copied/cloned the Stagi action (which is like a miniature accordion action). This would be pretty difficult to re-arrange from an English 48b to a Hayden. This would need to be verified, but I am not betting against Stagi actions inside these boxes as they would be much easier to mass produce than a traditional English action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Łukasz Martynowicz Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 A quick google image search shows that even this Stagi action could be utilized to some degree - it still have button/lever/pad assembly. After moving the whole button grid to the new placement probably one row worth of buttons should need longer levers. There will have to be custom action board/electronics board anyways, so moving holes is not an issue. But of course this would require a bit more work than rearranging traditional action. It would be best to seek out a chineese manufacturer of those concertinas and find out what they can supply - maybe they can do the whole box/action board/bellows thing to new specification without the need for third party rearranging. We don't even know what quantities are necesary to start production and what costs we are talking about now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatthewVanitas Posted September 23, 2014 Author Share Posted September 23, 2014 (edited) Thanks Łukasz, I was getting a bit off to the fringe there trying to combine ideas, so good points on the different end-goals. I suppose initially what I had in mind was "ask Dean to make a run of Hayen S-Waves", but I checked that out prior to this thread and Dean said that it wasn't feasible for him personally to make at this stage, other priorities, etc. If the S-Wave is indeed as cool as a few members have stated, I for one would be interested in a run of 65b S-Waves if Dean were willing to license the design out to an outside workshop. If we do indeed want to have an actual traditional-style lever-magnets system, vice switches such as Dean uses, then that would be barely easier/cheaper than simply making an entire concertina. Minimal saving in not having to have reeds and reedblocks? Not presuming to pressure Wim, but just using the Peacock as an example: if we had a 7" Peacock kit with an end that is not yet fretted, we could take the 42b and add holes around it to bring it up to easily 52b or perhaps even 65b, since the levers don't need to lead to a "chamber", just to a hole with a magnet which we can place anywhere on the soundboard. So as long as the buttons don't run off the edge of the body, we're ok? That said, there is no Peacock kit currently, and the Clover kit runs $1550. And I have no idea if it'd be a massive tail-pain for Wim to ask his suppliers to send him a batch of unfretted ends, or some extra levers and buttons. But if somehow we could arrange that, then it'd be a relatively "standard" MIDI-fication at that point? This would kind of be between Łukasz's options #1 and #2: being better quality than #2 but at least twice the price, but still waaaay cheaper than option #1 but still pretty good quality. Option #1.5? Option #1.75 would be getting a run of unassembled/unfretted/unholed Concertina Connection boxes, and drilling button-holes for a 65b layout (it's the same 7" size as the Peacock/Beaumont, so it'd fit). Then running the levers just willy-nilly wherever we can fit a hole on the soundboard, add in magnets/MIDI and assemble. The materials cost would be way lower than the Peacock version, though depending on labor/electronics cost that might be false economy. Or would a CC action be acceptably good enough with nicer buttons (metal or Delrin) and bushing? For Łukasz's option #3, my initial ideas were two different takes: 3a: something similar to the S-Wave, cast-resin or milled plastic body with off-the-shelf switches and a pressure-sensor vice bellows 3b: something extremely close to the Gadget, but tidied up by dropping it into cast/milled plastic hexagonal ends to make it a more durable and polished product. Maybe a "bellows" just slightly fancier than the hinge the kit used. Not quite a true concertina feel, but more concertina-like and also far handier than a AXIS-49 hex keyboard. At least partial appeal to both concertinists and to MIDI enthusiasts, not the ideal for either but affordable enough to be tolerable to both communities. Spoke with Dean recently, and he's out busy for a couple of weeks but may be willing to drop into provide his perspective after that. So far as I know, mainly it's Dean Onyon (S-Wave) and Ron Whiteley (Accordion Magic, UK) who've done MIDI concertinas that have stuck around on the market for a while. So a few folks managed to have found a solution, as have a few small workshops for melodeons like the Streb eMelodeon. Thing is, most of these folks are "gentleman luthiers" who build as a sideline while having many other priorities, so finding a solution and getting it to a full-time outsource workshop that can churn out a run seems the affordable solution. Edited September 23, 2014 by MatthewVanitas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conzertino Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 I am in the middle of an English-system MIDI project with lots of new ideas - and I would like to invite some comments. So I will start a new thread... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Taylor Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 @Matthew Conzertino's ideas are brilliant. If you can live with some sort of Cheesemanized Hayden layout then you could take a vintage Maccann and apply the same principles to make a pair of inter-connected midi reed pans that would be form fit and swappable with its existing reed pans. This would be a reversible modification leaving the vintage instrument unharmed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conzertino Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 Did you see this guy? I wonder what system he plays? Probably a bandoneon!? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OU9c4bPBpGg I couldn't figure out, if if it is same note push and pull... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Taylor Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Did you see this guy? I wonder what system he plays? Probably a bandoneon!? I couldn't figure out, if if it is same note push and pull... I suppose it is a bandoneon given that his YouTube moniker is Bandoneon Medley. I know nothing about Bandoneons, I have never seen one live but the button arrangements and sizes look interesting in that they appear to be more widely spaced apart and the buttons are bigger. I wonder how that affects their playability cf. one of our types of concertina? More specifically, I wonder how a Hayden/Wicki layout would work out with buttons spaced sufficiently far apart so that computer keyboard switches could be used along with bigger diameter buttons. Tona's custom Dipper duet appears to have large buttons with somewhat wider spacing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inventor Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 I have viewed the interesting video several times. I tend to think that it is some sort of "chromatic" Bandoneon (i.e. both notes are the same, push and pull). The Kussrow keyboard immediately springs to mind. I don't think it is the one based on a CBA. The classic bisonoric Bandoneon is normally played unidirectionally, so it is difficult to see from just from observing his playing, if it is one of these. I note that the basic concertina box that is being used, is an even more basic than the Wim blanks that I suggested in an earlier post. The button array of 7 - 8 - 9 - 9 - 8 - 7 in a row, would be more than enough to cover 3 octaves in each hand on a Hayden system, with plenty of enharmonic sharps and flats. I see no reason why this very instrument could not be programed to a Hayden system; the precise spacing of the buttons should not be any problem. Perhaps Lukasz or Matthew could find out who made this instrument and how much they might cost ? Inventor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inventor Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 I have just looked back to Lukasz's very first post on this thread on page 1, and see how close his prototype is to the instrument being played in that video. Inventor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatthewVanitas Posted October 5, 2014 Author Share Posted October 5, 2014 (edited) I would message the YouTuber, but I have to make some adjustments to get back into my YouTube account as it's linked to my US phone number at the moment. But if anyone wants to invite him to join the discussion, that could be most fruitful. So far as layouts that could be converted to Hayden, Kusserow does look a good option. There's one Kusserow bandoneon up on eBay at the moment for US$500: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Old-unusual-Concertina-Bandoneon-Bandonion-Accordion-47-52-button-/131311856700?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e92cbec3c Very old, rare accordion. It needs serious professional repair!No makersname to be found. It has 47/52buttons. some of the buttons are missing. They play the same note when you push or pull!! The the body of the instrument mesures 9 7/8/12 3/4 /10 3/4' . (25/32,5/27,5cm) . The instrument showes wear and needs to be serviced, repaired and cleaned. (Please make sure you see all the pictures. ) The instrument looses air. Buttons are missing, the bell is not tight and it makes sounds without pressing buttons. All the main parts seems to be complete. Though I do not know how rare/desirable Kusserow bandoneons are, whether they're something one can modify in good conscience or no, etc. I suppose some of these options are less-invasive, but I suppose it depends how easy it is to separate reeds from the soundboard and drop them back in. It's an interesting idea, and might work really well for one-offs, but it's not quite scalable for getting a few dozen of these. Kusserow layout for context: it appears it's just notes lined up chromatically (e, f, f#, g, g#), running left-right on the right hand, and diagonally on the left hand: http://www.bandoneon-maker.com/band.kusserow%20lay%20out.dwg%201-Model.jpg%202.jpg Edited October 5, 2014 by MatthewVanitas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Molkentin Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 Did you see this guy? I wonder what system he plays? Probably a bandoneon!? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OU9c4bPBpGg I couldn't figure out, if if it is same note push and pull... He doesn't seem to use bellows movement at all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conzertino Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 If you check out his other youtube videos you will find that he plays Bandoneon, most likely the German Einheits-System! Bandoneon-players usually can play their full scales both on push and pull. As he doesn't need any air, he can keep playing in one direction... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Taylor Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 Did you see this guy? I wonder what system he plays? Probably a bandoneon!? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OU9c4bPBpGg I couldn't figure out, if if it is same note push and pull... He doesn't seem to use bellows movement at all... But he does get some volume dynamics so I am guessing he has some sort of strain guage like the S-wave but inside the bellows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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