Rod Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (I bet someone can play jazz on an Anglo but it must be good mental exercise...) OK, it may not be jazz as MrWannaplayjazz knows it, but our own Mr Roger Digby does credit to Fats Waller and Rodgers & Hart in jazz style on an anglo concertina on Anglo International (Ain't Misbehavin and The Lady Is A Tramp). Goes to show that anything is possible if you have the talent and the application! Alex West Yes. Fats Waller popularised plenty of good old tunes that fit my Anglo fine whilst allowing plenty of scope for some creative improvisation where appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wannaplayjazz Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 Thank you all again. It's definitely the pre-war jazz I'm interested in, Django, and some of the contemporary New Orleans bluesy street jazz (Tuba Skinny, Smoking Time Jazz Club etc) - I got into the music through dancing so, in my books, "it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing." Glad to see it's not such an outlandish idea to play that sort of stuff on a concertina after all. I did consider a Crane because the button layout was very logical to me but I have small hands and I heard the high notes are hard to reach with the right hand - is that so? It's really difficult to know without getting my hands on one for a while whether to go for an English or duet. Since it's mostly playing melodies I'd be interested in for now, I'm thinking an English might be the way to go but, having played piano for years, I wonder would I miss the ability to play a bass line after a while. I can’t find anybody in the country that has an English concertina (all Irish trad musicians with anglos) so it’s hard to envision what’s possible without even being able to hold one. So apologies if this is a really dumb question, but how tricky is it to add some harmony while playing an English? I'm sure very proficient players can make it do anything but realistically, for an ordinary mortal like me, how feasible is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Mansfield Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 So apologies if this is a really dumb question, but how tricky is it to add some harmony while playing an English? I'm sure very proficient players can make it do anything but realistically, for an ordinary mortal like me, how feasible is it? To give you a good idea of what's achievable on an EC have a listen to the various videos that Cnet contributor ratface has put up links to (use the Profile tools to access his postings). Now it ain't necessarily *easy* but it's certainly feasible, and there's other players like Rob Harbron who play in a similar style. Complete counter-melodies are harder because of the amount of distance your fingers would need to travel and the sheer brain-power involved - but looking at the old Salvation Army tutor also available elsewhere on this site, they obviously regarded it as feasible. Mere mortals like me aspire to that sort of style, and it's coming day by day and week by week. I'd encourage you to try what you're after on EC, but that's quite possibly because I'm an EC player myself: most of the answers to 'which concertina system' questions tend to boil down to people advocating the system they themselves are most familiar with, not least because comparatively few people (including me!) have sufficiently strong skills on all 3 systems to make an unshaded comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) I cant find anybody in the country that has an English concertina (all Irish trad musicians with anglos) so its hard to envision whats possible without even being able to hold one. So apologies if this is a really dumb question, but how tricky is it to add some harmony while playing an English? I'm sure very proficient players can make it do anything but realistically, for an ordinary mortal like me, how feasible is it? There are players of the 'English' in Ireland. If you would indicate the County you live in then someone here will know who might be the nearest person to you. Dick Miles lives in Kerry (I think) or Co.Cork. Fernando (a member of this site) lives now in Cork City. Stephen Chambers lives in Co.Clare... and there are others too. Edited January 10, 2012 by Geoff Wooff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new english Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Hi I believe a duet concertina (I may be wrong?) was actually intended to play chords /bass lines left hand and melody right hand ? With a little work all the Dixie land ,gypsy ,jazz standards ,tin pan alley guitar arrangements I have can be played on my McCann (that’s why I bought it LOL) I tried an EC and it was beautiful but the chap that played both the duet and English them told me the English was not suited to that particular style ,it’s obviously possible but as a beginner I would have thought an instrument dedicated to a vamp and tune style would be the most appropriate ? Please correct me if i,m wrong tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wannaplayjazz Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 I think I just spoke to Stephen on the phone! I'm in Co. Galway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wannaplayjazz Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Hi Tony! Sorry, seem to have cross-posted so didn't see your message til now. I agree with what you're saying in principal but the problem for me right now is that I'm not just new to the instrument, I've also never played any jazz either! So I'm not overly competent of my ability to even work that bass line properly if I had it, which is why I'm tending towards the English right now. I think the task of facing two learning curves at once might be too much for me. BUT then I wonder, once I get to grips with the mechanics of a new instrument, would I then want to get into the jazz harmonies more, in which case I might regret not getting a duet. This is my main dilemma. If I end up not using the bass so much, then I don't like the idea of playing almost one-handed but neither do I want to buy an instrument that won't suit what I want to do in a year's time. Norma. Edited January 10, 2012 by wannaplayjazz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kautilya Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Ah you're all teasing me by mentioning great musicians I want to listen to, but can't find clips of! I'm torn ...... , from hearing Irish trad played on an Anglo. And so that's the sound I associate with the instrument. All jokes aside, I'm with Al on this one. Practicals: look at, talk to, go to Swaledale Squeeze to see/hear/learn from Harry Scurfield who can jazz and rag and swing on Anglo and the rest. Al also does plenty mean slides and improvised productions. start here and I think you will notice it is Anglo, and bear in mind that the push and pull or suck and blow of the Anglo is what gives the harmonica jazz harps their massive edge over the standard tremolo harmonicas: Harry has been over the Irish Sea a number of times cataloguing various tina history, archive and live material and also counts a lot of South / African music as part of his research and repertoire. I suspect the issue is more that folk who play ITM and traditional tunes do not necessarily have the mindset or inclination to turn to improvised jazz (mindset in terms of interest rather than mental agility to break fingers away from the 'toon'. As a parc player myself one of the attractions of joining in with good jazz tina players one can vamp along with some excruciating notes and chords which in trad context would be castigated (and player even detartsac ) but in jazz context draw 'aural' smiles of admiration and even the occasional Whoop!! See what Chris Algar of Barleycorn in Stoke on Trent has in high button number Anglos to give you a bigger range. And going for sound rather than looks will achieve your aim without breaking the bank. Give me a little time and will sort out some more links. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wannaplayjazz Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Oh my word - yes that's EXACTLY the style of music I'd like to play!!! Especially the non-accompaniment bit he plays. Thank you! But now I'm TOTALLY confused - that's on Anglo? The first thing I was told was to rule that one out. But, come to think of it, I don't really understand why. I keep hearing about how the push/pull of the bellows affects rhythm but I don't really understand how. Don't you push/pull the bellows on any concertina - what is it about the Anglo that makes it different? I mean, I know it changes the note, but how does that affect the rhythm in a way that couldn't be achieved on other concertinas? Pardon my utter ignorance! And more links to that sort of stuff would be fantastic! Edited January 10, 2012 by wannaplayjazz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirge Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Oh my word - yes that's EXACTLY the style of music I'd like to play!!! Especially the non-accompaniment bit he plays. Thank you! But now I'm TOTALLY confused - that's on Anglo? The first thing I was told was to rule that one out. But, come to think of it, I don't really understand why. I keep hearing about how the push/pull of the bellows affects rhythm but I don't really understand how. Don't you push/pull the bellows on any concertina - what is it about the Anglo that makes it different? I mean, I know it changes the note, but how does that affect the rhythm in a way that couldn't be achieved on other concertinas? Pardon my utter ignorance! And more links to that sort of stuff would be fantastic! I don't think K's doing you any favours here. Yes you could get an Anglo but it strikes me as the complicated and expensive way to go. Concertina-wise whoever said everyone is biassed is right only a few people play more than one system to any standard and of course we favour what we know. It seems to me that when players get really good they can do almost anything with their instruments and the differences don't matter much but for mere mortals they still apply. The trouble is the differences between the keyboards make them almost entirely different instruments for playing purposes so you don't want to change later, if you can avoid it. I think, from my thoroughly biassed view as a Maccan duet player (who is varied in his musical taste, and had to make his own decision unaided): All instruments have their strong and weak points. A concertina player has very limited control of the way the sound is made, because there is a mechanism between the player and the reed. So options to bend notes or alter tone like, say, a clarinet can, are poor. HOWEVER a squeezebox can hold as many notes at one time as you can get your fingers across (and yes, that is more than 8!) something a clarinet will never do. So I think when you are considering the sort of music we're discussing you should, as Harry Scurfield so ably demonstrated, be thinking stride piano as a model for where you are headed. Trying to use your 'box as a single note lead instrument is to ignore one of the concertina's great USPs and you are just going to get frustrated because you can't chew on the notes like the saxophones are. So I would suggest you should be aiming down the full chording route right from the start, even if it takes a while to get used to adding chords. It will come. All decent concertinas are pricey. Anglos are now stupidly pricey because they are currently fashionable particularly for Irish trad. (I own 3 top notch duets; together they cost me very little more than ONE top notch Anglo would have done) Their owners like to have a few so that they can pick up the one that is nearest to the key of the music they want to join in with. So not really sensibly fully chromatic. Their owners claim that having to reverse the bellows regularly is somehow good; a great lurch here and there is positive. Actually the rest of us make our own choices when to play staccato or give the bellows an extra thump instead of having them imposed by the machine. If you could already play or already had an Anglo, fine, different answer. But if you have no particular inclination that way ignore them as a very pricey third-best choice. You could consider an English, but duets are cheaper to buy these days were created as the next development and are made by the same factories. Called duet by the makers because you can 'play a duet with yourself'. The implication being that you can't with an English, of course. Not strictly true if you're good again; you should find some stuff on Youtube by Dave Townsend (playing with a mate with a serpent; couldn't track it down just now.) He's the best demonstration I've come across that it is possible to produce a duet-like fullness of sound with an English. But as with the Anglo, why pay more for a limitting instrument? If you really don't think you'll ever be a Fats Waller of the concertina an English might be worth considering, but why not just take up the clarinet? If you swallow that then we have to go through it all again. There are 4 duet systems to choose from... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kautilya Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Give me a little time and will sort out some more links. Harry in action, with The Late Night Mob on his brand new Big Dipper late at night (or early morning) at Squeezedale. Start at 2hrs 46min 30secs and then swing into Alexander's Ragtime Band and then see how he seamlessly moves into trad Shoals of Herring and hear his quivering bellows (not far off harmonica harp vamping/bending by hand!) as he matches "In the stormy seas and the living gales" There may be a few other examples scattered around the five hours of action. Coffe(e) break action.... http://youtu.be/1nsB8dEehb8 There is a recent thread somewhere with Al explaining/peforming some note bending for blies jazz and other purposes but cant remember exactly where. Edited January 10, 2012 by Kautilya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kautilya Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Oh my word - yes that's EXACTLY the style of music I'd like to play!!! Especially the non-accompaniment bit he plays. Thank you! But now I'm TOTALLY confused - that's on Anglo? The first thing I was told was to rule that one out. But, come to think of it, I don't really understand why. I keep hearing about how the push/pull of the bellows affects rhythm but I don't really understand how. Don't you push/pull the bellows on any concertina - what is it about the Anglo that makes it different? I mean, I know it changes the note, but how does that affect the rhythm in a way that couldn't be achieved on other concertinas? Pardon my utter ignorance! And more links to that sort of stuff would be fantastic! I don't think K's doing you any favours here. Yes you could get an Anglo but it strikes me as the complicated and expensive way to go. If you swallow that then we have to go through it all again. There are 4 duet systems to choose from... Dirge is absolutely right (I thought cheap Lachenal Anglos were cheaper than cheap English etc but he has been watching the market for some time, and he already has a Rolls Royce of a giant box!) A call to Chris Algar will sort out what current (post Xmas, depression, recession, regression)prices are for something (tell him your quadrilemma) to do the job you have in mind. You can be sure a box from him will be in working order. But, as I said, Dirge is right and the moral of the Dirgested Read (with apologies to John Crace of The Guardian) says: "Go and listen, ask about, try out, maybe borrow and test all the different types before you plunge and spend......." :) I would (could) not want to lock up that kind of loot on spec. and battered old boxes often hide their best secrets inside, assuming you are not an investor for treasure** but a player for pleasure and can climb up the investment tree later. ** ref the argument you should buy the most expensive now as you can re=sell it later for more. BUT it needs to be the right method/box now. Edited January 10, 2012 by Kautilya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirge Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 A call to Chris Algar will sort out what current (post Xmas, depression, recession, regression)prices are for something (tell him your quadrilemma) to do the job you have in mind. You can be sure a box from him will be in working order. Very good advice indeed; Chris is very knowledgeable, very patient with enquirers and very friendly; there's no pressure to buy when talking to him. He also has a faultless reputation for the way he does business. You pay a premium but you know he'll be straight with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceemonster Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) [it's definitely the pre-war jazz I'm interested in, Django, and some of the contemporary New Orleans bluesy street jazz (Tuba Skinny, Smoking Time Jazz Club etc)] great stuff, but the old "classic" jazz itself is played by single-line melody instruments (sidney bechet, louis armstrong, bix biederbeke, etc) and multi-voice instruments such as piano (fats, duke, etc). if you know you want actual vamping in a wide spectrum of keys rather than just little chordal dabs here and there, it's probly duet. if you're pretty sure you mainly want to be sidney bechet or johnny "jeep" hodges (omg!), i think EC is the way to go. i will say i'm fascinated by duet's potential as a single-line melody instrument, though it's not usually thought of that way. seems to me the ones with a full octave or nearly a full octave of overlap could be fantastic for melody music, and then you'd also have an instrument that would do bass-side-melody-side when you wanted to go that way....i have spent the last five years playing anglo pretty obsessively, but for other music i am playing CBA and have been eyeing the unisonoric concertinas very seriously. and like the other posters, i am troubled by the current prices of anglos relative to their musical capabilities.... Edited January 11, 2012 by ceemonster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Hersh Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) I did consider a Crane because the button layout was very logical to me but I have small hands and I heard the high notes are hard to reach with the right hand - is that so? I don't find it to be a problem myself, but you'd really have to try one yourself to know for sure. I agree Dirge's caution about taking Harry Scurfield's Anglo playing as a model to emulate. Scurfield is a very advanced player who has a unique approach to the instrument. If you want to play melody and accompaniment together and want to play fairly chromatic music (as jazz tends to be) you'll probably find an easier path on a duet than on an Anglo or an English. I also agree with the suggestion to contact Chris Algar to get a sense of prices and options for vintage concertinas. His business is Barleycorn Concertinas. Edited January 12, 2012 by Daniel Hersh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Stein Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) I play in a trio that is expressly jazz based. Here is a snippet of one of our gigs. Also I find, at least on the EC, i have a lot of advantages for solo arrangements in model tones and chording. And especially when improvising! Dirge and I recently had a nice discussion about Django. My trio plays a couple of his tunes as well as Ellington, Gershwin, Carmichael, and others. rss Edited January 11, 2012 by Randy Stein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Stein Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) [ Edited January 11, 2012 by Randy Stein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kautilya Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) [ Sounds like prices of duets are going to start climbing! Had a word with Harry, and he suggests the way to go may be either Anglo or Duet....of which comments more later. He thinks his playing of "Walk right in" in that Squeezedale utube around 2hrs 46 mins,was on 48=button baritone Anglo, but we are doing a bit more checking! I am generally not a Jazz fan, but am trusting all this discussion leads to more interesting tunes and improvisation recordings for us all to savour. Participated in some interesting 'jazzing up' of Beethoven's Ode to Joy with a quartet at an EU bash in Maribor a year or two ago. Maribor, Slovenia and home of the oldest vine in the world, is EU Capital of Culture this year. Now to listen to Randy's exploits. Edited January 11, 2012 by Kautilya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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