Bellow size vs playing power

[Tijn Berends]

So, I'm thinking of replacing the "bellows" (think that's what it's called) part of my Stagi anglo concertina, since it's altogether too RED (in flasy neon-light terms) for me. Now I wonder, how do the cross-sectional area and the number of folds of the bellows influence the power needed to play the instrument? Because I notice that after half an hour or so of playing, I simply have to stop because of the pain in my upper arms. I play Irish session tunes, so they're quite fast, especially for an Anglo, but still. I wonder if I could make the bellows' cross-sectional area somewhat smaller - intuition tells me that, with the same applied force on a smaller area, the pressure becomes larger, meaning that I have to move the bellows more (in order to get the same amount of displaced air), but it would take less force to do so.

 

Any thoughts on this?

[Ardie]

So, I'm thinking of replacing the "bellows" (think that's what it's called) part of my Stagi anglo concertina, since it's altogether too RED (in flasy neon-light terms) for me. Now I wonder, how do the cross-sectional area and the number of folds of the bellows influence the power needed to play the instrument? Because I notice that after half an hour or so of playing, I simply have to stop because of the pain in my upper arms. I play Irish session tunes, so they're quite fast, especially for an Anglo, but still. I wonder if I could make the bellows' cross-sectional area somewhat smaller - intuition tells me that, with the same applied force on a smaller area, the pressure becomes larger, meaning that I have to move the bellows more (in order to get the same amount of displaced air), but it would take less force to do so.

 

Any thoughts on this?

 

Some...

1) The cross-sectional area determines the power needed for pumping

2) The number of folds determines the air capacity first of all, but also the stability and "the power needed to play" will be affected by the energy demanded for stabilizing activities.

3) With a specific instrument 1) is already settled by the end area of the instrument and its reed pan and you will find it difficult doing much about that with another bellows except that according to 2) a shorter and/or more solid bellows may reduce the stabilizing effort

4) I wonder what is actually causing the pain in your upper arms. Is it the pumping? or the stabilizing effort? or some strain from carrying the instrument?

[Tijn Berends]

The instrument is lying on my legs when I play, so no carrying effort. Stability, could be, not sure.

As for 3), the power needed for pumping is (apart from some variables of the reeds and such) determined by the derivative of the amount of displaced air with respect to the movement of whatever it is you're driving. In a way, it's like a lever. If a certain amount of hand displacement results in a large amount of displaced air volume, then you need a lot of force, but only little hand movement. If the resulting air movement is small, then you need only little force, but a large hand movement, to get the same power. Obviously, even if you have very large instrument ends, but a very narrow bellow tube, then the amount of displaced air is only small. As with driving a bike in different gears, there's an optimum somewhere, and I wonder if it lies with a smaller bellows cross-section then I'm equipped with now.

[Ransom]

What if you kept the outer cross-section of the bellows the same, but made the folds deeper?

[Theo]

Your analysis is only of the input to the system, forces applied, air pressure generated and air volume set in motion. You should also consider the output side if the system - how the reeds respond to the air pressure, how much air they consume, and other factors that concern sound production. I suspect you will find that the cross section of the bellows on your Stagi is not greatly different from that of a Wheatstone/Lachenal/Jeffries or other higher quality concertina, and I would suggest that it would be very useful for you to take any opportunity to try out other instruments. I think you may find that instruments with better quality reeds and action will help you.

[JimLucas]

... I suspect you will find that the cross section of the bellows on your Stagi is not greatly different from that of a Wheatstone/Lachenal/Jeffries or other higher quality concertina, and I would suggest that it would be very useful for you to take any opportunity to try out other instruments. I think you may find that instruments with better quality reeds and action will help you.

And putting mag wheels and top quality radial tires on a VW bug won't make it handle like a racing Porsche? Rats!

 

Yep. It's the whole package that matters.

Still, as Ardie sayss in his point 4), "I wonder what is actually causing the pain in [McQuacker's] upper arms."

Any chance of a video to show us just what he's doing when he plays?

[Ardie]

I suspect you will find that the cross section of the bellows on your Stagi is not greatly different from that of a Wheatstone/Lachenal/Jeffries or other higher quality concertina, and I would suggest that it would be very useful for you to take any opportunity to try out other instruments. I think you may find that instruments with better quality reeds and action will help you.

 

Agree - it would add a great deal of information learning how your pain problem reacts to working with other instruments but I would be surprised if there is a major difference between the Stagi in this case and other models with just about the same size. Maybe the pumping of the Stagi is bit less efficient to achieve the same musical volume but otherwise the work itself ought to be the same. Can it be some general strain matter if you possibly are fairly fresh with concertina playing? You don't really expect upper arms to be exhausted from it - I think people more often complain about problems from wrists and forearms?

[Tijn Berends]

Best I currently have is this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAt-TSDjBd8

Though it switches instruments often. I could make one just of my concertina playing some day.

I don't know if I'll find the cross-section the same. It's a regular hexagon with sides of 10cm (so 20cm between opposite corners). Folds are roughly 2cm deep.

Edited March 21, 2011 by McQuacker

[Simon H]

The other consideration that havn't been mentioned yet are weight of both the bellows and the whole concertine, ( increased inertia to overcome everytime you change direction) and construction of the bellows, adding to the resistance. A lighter concertina with supple bellows that compress easily and convert effort to air delivered efficiently, is a very different instrument to play than a heavier one with stiff bellows. These factors in my humble opinion are more important (or at least equally important) to volume and cross sectional area.

[Ardie]

Best I currently have is this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAt-TSDjBd8

Though it switches instruments often. I could make one just of my concertina playing some day.

I don't know if I'll find the cross-section the same. It's a regular hexagon with sides of 10cm (so 20cm between opposite corners). Folds are roughly 2cm deep.

 

Thanks for the video! Concerning the instrument it seems to be a bit larger than the most common anglos (ca 18cm between opposite corners) and combined with the Stagi reeds probably being a little less efficient too(sound amplitude/physical work)one might suppose that the suggested trial of another instrument could be a good idea. I remain a little bit sceptic though until you *have* tested it. What strikes me - but it is indeed very difficult to judge from the video - is an impression you look somewhat tense in your arms. At least your hands look a bit crampful with the thumb gripping the hand bar while the hand-strap is fairly wide. This - if true - might cause a tension in your arms as well. Again - is there a chance you have been overdoing the concertina playing for a while to get your pain?? Or combining it with too much harmonica playing? :-)

[Anglo-Irishman]

Best I currently have is this one:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=mAt-TSDjBd8

Though it switches instruments often. I could make one just of my concertina playing some day.

I don't know if I'll find the cross-section the same. It's a regular hexagon with sides of 10cm (so 20cm between opposite corners). Folds are roughly 2cm deep.

 

 

I notice in the clip that you keep your thumb well away from the air valve, and operate it with your index finger. Try the conventional method that the Anglo is designed for - thumb on air valve, fingers on the note buttons - and you may find it easier.

 

Cheers,

John

[Ardie]

The other consideration that havn't been mentioned yet are weight of both the bellows and the whole concertine, ( increased inertia to overcome everytime you change direction) and construction of the bellows, adding to the resistance. A lighter concertina with supple bellows that compress easily and convert effort to air delivered efficiently, is a very different instrument to play than a heavier one with stiff bellows. These factors in my humble opinion are more important (or at least equally important) to volume and cross sectional area.

 

Sorry Simon, this is a common misunderstanding. The weight has some significance only for the effort carrying the instrument and this is almost eliminated when resting it on the knees. The "inertia" is also negligable since you are constantly working against a resistance when pumping. Possibly if you do "bellows-shake" with fat chords moving the mass of the instrument ends causes some effort but otherwise it is the pumping activity that firstly is responsible for your physical work.

[Frank Edgley]

Your analysis is only of the input to the system, forces applied, air pressure generated and air volume set in motion. You should also consider the output side if the system - how the reeds respond to the air pressure, how much air they consume, and other factors that concern sound production. I suspect you will find that the cross section of the bellows on your Stagi is not greatly different from that of a Wheatstone/Lachenal/Jeffries or other higher quality concertina, and I would suggest that it would be very useful for you to take any opportunity to try out other instruments. I think you may find that instruments with better quality reeds and action will help you.

 

Right, Theo! Bellows certainly will make the instrument more difficult to play if they are very stiff, but if you watch really good Irish players, their bellows move in and out very little. This is partly due to technique, and partly because the reeds are so sensitive that it takes little air to cause them to sound. Less motion and less effort = less arm fatigue. Bellows are but a small part of the cause of your discomfort.

[Theo]

Best I currently have is this one:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=mAt-TSDjBd8

Though it switches instruments often. I could make one just of my concertina playing some day.

I don't know if I'll find the cross-section the same. It's a regular hexagon with sides of 10cm (so 20cm between opposite corners). Folds are roughly 2cm deep.

 

 

I notice in the clip that you keep your thumb well away from the air valve, and operate it with your index finger. Try the conventional method that the Anglo is designed for - thumb on air valve, fingers on the note buttons - and you may find it easier.

 

Cheers,

John

 

Also possible that you have the straps too tight, therefore restricting freedom of movement in your hands resulting in two things - inability to reach the air button with your right thumb, and tension in your hands. The latter can contribute to tension and pain in your arms too.

[Azalin]

Best I currently have is this one:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=mAt-TSDjBd8

Though it switches instruments often. I could make one just of my concertina playing some day.

I don't know if I'll find the cross-section the same. It's a regular hexagon with sides of 10cm (so 20cm between opposite corners). Folds are roughly 2cm deep.

 

 

I notice in the clip that you keep your thumb well away from the air valve, and operate it with your index finger. Try the conventional method that the Anglo is designed for - thumb on air valve, fingers on the note buttons - and you may find it easier.

 

Cheers,

John

 

Yes not using the thumb for the air button is a major handicap in anglo playing... I think some tunes would become nearly impossible to play unless doing some 'magic tricks' with the fingers that would tire them even more.

[Rod]

Best I currently have is this one:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=mAt-TSDjBd8

Though it switches instruments often. I could make one just of my concertina playing some day.

I don't know if I'll find the cross-section the same. It's a regular hexagon with sides of 10cm (so 20cm between opposite corners). Folds are roughly 2cm deep.

 

 

I notice in the clip that you keep your thumb well away from the air valve, and operate it with your index finger. Try the conventional method that the Anglo is designed for - thumb on air valve, fingers on the note buttons - and you may find it easier.

 

Cheers,

John

 

Yes not using the thumb for the air button is a major handicap in anglo playing... I think some tunes would become nearly impossible to play unless doing some 'magic tricks' with the fingers that would tire them even more.

 

It looks like a poorly designed instrument with the air button beyond comfortable reach of the average thumb.

[David Levine]

Nobody has said it, so I will: the Stagi is a piece of crap. Have you ever played a really good concertina? Starting at $1,800 for a hybrid, the difference is absolutely astounding. Bright sound, quick response-- so light it is easy to hold and play, with less effort and less stress and less tension (which results in pain).

Playing Irish music with a Stagi is like playing tennis with a baseball bat.

I don't mean to belittle your music. Your playing is lovely, amazing given the instrument. I hope you get the scratch together to buy a better instrument.

[david_boveri]

Nobody has said it, so I will: the Stagi is a piece of crap. Have you ever played a really good concertina? Starting at $1,800 for a hybrid, the difference is absolutely astounding. Bright sound, quick response-- so light it is easy to hold and play, with less effort and less stress and less tension (which results in pain).

Playing Irish music with a Stagi is like playing tennis with a baseball bat.

I don't mean to belittle your music. Your playing is lovely, amazing given the instrument. I hope you get the scratch together to buy a better instrument.

 

thank you david. i was scrolling down to say it myself.

 

i routinely routinely have to play loud enough to lead ensembles in noisy pubs or be heard over other instruments that are on a PA system, and no matter how hard i squeeze my instrument, it never takes as much force as my old stagi.

 

 

i have many memories of putting down the stagi and feeling like i had just spent a few hours doing heavy weightlifting in the gym. there is nothing you can do to fix this....

 

funny story... when i was starting out, i once played so much on my stagi that i couldn't feel my thumb for 3 days. not my fault... it's the instrument. i have never had this happen on a nicer instrument. i know someone who caused permanent hand damage trying to play a stagi for a year (she had small hands).

 

you are doing so well on such a terrible instrument. you have no idea how bad it is... a $50 dollar violin is nowhere near as horrible as your instrument. you're making wonderful music, and you have no idea how much you will flower if you get a better concertina. you have gone so far on that instrument, but i would say there is little further you can go. there is no physical way for you to reach the air button... although it is quite a feat that you are able to play by quickly tapping with your pointer finger, imagine if you could just use your thumb!

 

do yourself a favor... find a local player and just play their instrument for 10 seconds. then you'll be self-motivated to go get a second job and get yourself a concertina that can teach you how to grow.