Bring the Elise concertina into a new league

[Ubik]

Hello friends, i like this Hayden keyboard style and on top I learned to play tunes in this way and would like to stay on this duet hayden. As many pointed not big choice with this layout. Found a concertina builder that can completely replace both mechanic and reeves. Wood will remain the same. provided the new parts are top quality, do you believe sound will be significantly better or just limited by the wood of the elise?

 

In other words, do mechanic+reeves make 90% of the sound quality?

thanx so much

[Ransom]

I wouldn't expect replacing the action to help your sound much. Replacing the reeds could have a large effect on the sound, but I'm not sure you'll get a tremendous improvement. The reeds in an Elise aren't bad reeds. It's just that they are constructed in the accordion-style, instead of in the traditional concertina style.

 

I'm not sure it makes sense to try to replace the Elise reeds with traditional concertina reeds-- the frames are so different. So you would probably be replacing the accordion reeds you have with different accordion reeds. So I'm not sure that would help much.

[Ubik]

I wouldn't expect replacing the action to help your sound much. Replacing the reeds could have a large effect on the sound, but I'm not sure you'll get a tremendous improvement. The reeds in an Elise aren't bad reeds. It's just that they are constructed in the accordion-style, instead of in the traditional concertina style.

 

I'm not sure it makes sense to try to replace the Elise reeds with traditional concertina reeds-- the frames are so different. So you would probably be replacing the accordion reeds you have with different accordion reeds. So I'm not sure that would help much.

 

I see your points, in fact the reeds will be replace with accordion types as well although they are surely better quality at least from the picture i have seen. I will msg privately with more reference so you might have a look? Thanx

[Stephen Chambers]

... the reeds will be replace with accordion types as well although they are surely better quality at least from the picture i have seen.

 

My own experience would be that "better quality" accordion reeds don't necessarily sound any better in an instrument, in fact they may not sound as good (which is why, in the past, I've ordered accordions off Castagnari with cheaper "export" quality reeds instead of the "tipo a mano" they normally use, because they sound brighter). Whilst you'd need to redesign the reedblocks to take different reeds as the scaling is going to be different - you can't just do a simple swapping over.

 

The Elise mechanism is similar in principle to that in expensive, vintage English-made concertnas, it works much better and more-reliably than any Italian concertina mechanism that I've seen.

[Frank Edgley]

"The reeds in an Elise aren't bad reeds. It's just that they are constructed in the accordion-style, instead of in the traditional concertina style."

 

Sorry. I have to disagree with you on this point. Modern, hand-made accordion reeds are just as high quality as the very best concertina-type reeds. There are many factors which contribute to the sound quality of concertinas. The cheaper concertinas from China and Italy do not use the best quality reeds. But just as important, if not more so, is the design of the cheaper instruments. The reeds are mounted in banks instead of flat to the action board. This has a lot to do with tone and response. The larger size of the instrument also contributes to the sluggishness of it. There are other factors, as well. These cheaper instruments serve a purpose --- the very low end entry model, which, at least, gets concertinas into the hands of the curious. Trying to change the accordion-type reeds with traditional reeds would be very expensive, if at all possible, and would yield disappointing results. It would be a bit better, and cost less to replace the reeds with high-end accordion-type reeds, although the resulting instrument would still be what it is---limited by its less-than-ideal design. Although more expensive, get Bob Tedrow to make a hayden duet for you. It would be a much more satisfying instrument to play and would not fall apart in a few years.

[inventor]

I have heard several Elises both live and on the internet, and have been surprised at how good the sound is. Wim Wakker has gone to great lengths to produce a very good, useful product for an amazingly reasonable price.

User Improvements:-

1)The action is OK (especially at the price they sell for new); but I feel it could be much improved if the buttons were replaced with standard concertina buttons, and felt bushed into the ends.

2)Elises at 7" are quite large by concertina standards, and I feel that there is sufficient space around the edges to take a few more notes, to take it up to 44 buttons. This would not only add another couple of "easy-peasy" keys but would also make the instrument more or less chromatic. You would have to add individual tone chambers flat on the deck for each button added. I am well aware that this would not be a cost effective thing for a concertina manufacturer to do, if they wished to keep the price down.

3)The sound of accordion reeded concertinas is considerably improved if the reed plates are laid out parallel to the ends rather than at right angles to the ends. However this would involve a complete rebuild of the whole instrument, and do not recommend it for an Elise.

4)I don't think that it is a good idea to change the accordion reed plates for traditional individual concertina reeds. Concertina reeds cost the earth compared even to "hand made" Accordion reed-plates!

Wishing you the very best of luck with your project, let us know how it works out.

Inventor.

[wim wakker]

Ubik: I thought that the person who will be doing the conversion started already… We discussed your request and I emailed him the blueprints.

 

Replacing the action does not have any effect on sound quality, only key pressure and action noise. You can only improve these parameters by installing a heavier (brass) action. Improvement will be around 10-15 grams of key pressure reduction. Noise reduction is too small to measure. Airflow improvement is minimal. All our entry models (Jackie/Jack/Rochelle/Elise) score >95%. I can name quite a few higher priced traditional and accordion reeded concertinas that don’t even come close to these values….

 

Stephen is right, ‘a mano’ reeds do not sound better per se. Reed quality classes relate to air flow resistant and harmonics they produce. Low end reeds produce less harmonics (less bright) and need a higher air flow value because of energy efficiency and reed resistance.

Example: If you want an instrument to sound round, not harsh/bright, and the air flow value is 75, you can easily use reeds that need a 50 flow value and produce less harmonics, since your instrument produces way more than the minimum that is required. If you install higher end reeds which need a lower air flow in this instrument, you will just get a brighter/harsher sound, and a big risk that the high air flow will choke your reeds, especially when mounted ampliphonicly.

 

That’s another misconception. Reeds mounted in blocks are not of lesser quality… In fact, it is the opposite. Besides the technical reasons such as air flow consistency, foot print, etc., block mounted reeds are the preferred construction in accordions and bayans. Just think of it, don’t you think the engineers that design $50.000+ instruments know what they’re doing?

 

Although we also use ampliphonic construction in our intermediate instruments (Clover anglo and the english and duet models that will be introduced later this year) the reason is cost related, not quality.

It is a lot easier and cheaper to lay the reeds flat on the reed pan, and is fine as long as you can prevent pitch bending or reed choking due to excessive air flow. If you own an accordion reeded concertina try playing a lower note fairly loud. If the pitch drops, or when the reed doesn’t sound at all, the reason is the amplifonic mounting, not reed quality. It is a sign that there is something wrong with the design of your instrument.

 

Frank: I get the impression that you think ‘a mano’ reeds are made by a person with a saw and file, making the reed and frame by hand. If I am correct, you need to book a vacation to Ossimo and take a tour through the factory. A mano means the reeds are machine cut differently and tolerances are slightly smaller than other qualities and they are hand finished/checked. Like I explained before, the result is more harmonics and energy efficiency related than sound. One more assumption, I understand that you use the wide vented frames Harry Geuns developed years ago for the Wakker-Geuns models. If I am correct, than the values of your reeds don’t even come close to the new reeds we use in the Rochelle.

 

Inventor: I agree with you that the action would improve with concertina buttons and bushing. The only problem is that it would almost double the price of the instrument. The action has proven to be very reliable. With 3000-4000 instruments over a 7+ year period the failure rate is less than 0.5%.

Even with the 7” frame there is no space for extra reeds. Believe me, there is a lot more to it than just stuffing reeds in an instrument.

 

Wim Wakker

Concertina Connection Inc.

Wakker Concertinas

[David Barnert]

With 3000-4000 instruments over a 7+ year period the failure rate is less than 0.5%.

Wow. Are there really 3000-4000 Elise Haydens in circulation, or does this include Jackie, Jack and Rochelle?

[wim wakker]

With 3000-4000 instruments over a 7+ year period the failure rate is less than 0.5%.

Wow. Are there really 3000-4000 Elise Haydens in circulation, or does this include Jackie, Jack and Rochelle?

 

That would include all entry level instruments. They are basically the same instrument, just with a different keyboard layout.

[Daniel Hersh]

With 3000-4000 instruments over a 7+ year period the failure rate is less than 0.5%.

Wow. Are there really 3000-4000 Elise Haydens in circulation, or does this include Jackie, Jack and Rochelle?

That would include all entry level instruments. They are basically the same instrument, just with a different keyboard layout.

 

Wim - can you tell us how the numbers break out between the models (or even give us a general sense of the ratio between them for recent sales)? It would be interesting to get a sense of what systems new players are playing - but I also would understand why you might consider that proprietary information.

[wim wakker]

With 3000-4000 instruments over a 7+ year period the failure rate is less than 0.5%.

Wow. Are there really 3000-4000 Elise Haydens in circulation, or does this include Jackie, Jack and Rochelle?

That would include all entry level instruments. They are basically the same instrument, just with a different keyboard layout.

 

Wim - can you tell us how the numbers break out between the models (or even give us a general sense of the ratio between them for recent sales)? It would be interesting to get a sense of what systems new players are playing - but I also would understand why you might consider that proprietary information.

 

I don’t have exact numbers, but I would say that about 50% are Rochelles, 43% Jackie and Jacks, and 7% Elises. The Elises are definitely gaining and the Rochelles percentage seems to be going down a little the last year.

I get the impression from the many hours I spent weekly answering questions from prospective buyers that there is a strong link between (former) harmonica players and the Rochelle. The link between ITM and the anglo does not seem to be so strong outside the USA and GB/Ireland. Quite often I have to explain what Irish music is when I use it as an example style for anglo concertina.

People who are able to read music and/or play another musical instrument usually prefer the Jackie/Jack or Elise.

 

Wim

[Ubik]

With 3000-4000 instruments over a 7+ year period the failure rate is less than 0.5%.

Wow. Are there really 3000-4000 Elise Haydens in circulation, or does this include Jackie, Jack and Rochelle?

That would include all entry level instruments. They are basically the same instrument, just with a different keyboard layout.

 

Wim - can you tell us how the numbers break out between the models (or even give us a general sense of the ratio between them for recent sales)? It would be interesting to get a sense of what systems new players are playing - but I also would understand why you might consider that proprietary information.

 

I don’t have exact numbers, but I would say that about 50% are Rochelles, 43% Jackie and Jacks, and 7% Elises. The Elises are definitely gaining and the Rochelles percentage seems to be going down a little the last year.

I get the impression from the many hours I spent weekly answering questions from prospective buyers that there is a strong link between (former) harmonica players and the Rochelle. The link between ITM and the anglo does not seem to be so strong outside the USA and GB/Ireland. Quite often I have to explain what Irish music is when I use it as an example style for anglo concertina.

People who are able to read music and/or play another musical instrument usually prefer the Jackie/Jack or Elise.

 

Wim

 

 

Thanx for all interesting responses. will think over your points. Mine is simple, I can start to play decently and wanted to upgrade without the 2000-3000 USD needed to buy a new instrument. That is why I was asking mods to the guy that sold me the elise. he is competent for sure, but I am in doubt now if this is the way to go. The elise mechanic gave me some minor issues...felt are falling away and had to glue 5 of them already. that was also stimuliting the idea to improve mechanics and add new accordion reeds. But as said will think over. Thanxs to all

[Geoff Wooff]

Wim,

could you give us any more information regarding your "intermediate instruments" "that will be introduced later this year" ,please ?

Geoff.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Geoff Wooff

[Stephen Chambers]

Wim,

could you give us any more information regarding your "intermediate instruments" "that will be introduced later this year" ,please ?

Geoff.

 

'Tis a pity you're not still in Miltown Geoff, seeing that I've got the "Clover" Anglo version sitting on my shelf...

[Geoff Wooff]

Wim,

could you give us any more information regarding your "intermediate instruments" "that will be introduced later this year" ,please ?

Geoff.

 

'Tis a pity you're not still in Miltown Geoff, seeing that I've got the "Clover" Anglo version sitting on my shelf...

 

 

AHHHHH!! 'Tis a pity yes Steve,

I was interested in what Wim is proposing for his range in the English and Duet keyboards. I quite fancy having a go at a Duet and have been contemplating ordering a Hayden (amongst other duet systems), you don't happen to have one of those do you ?

Happy St.Patrick's Weekend to you,

Geoff.

[Stephen Chambers]

'Tis a pity you're not still in Miltown Geoff, seeing that I've got the "Clover" Anglo version sitting on my shelf...

 

I was interested in what Wim is proposing for his range in the English and Duet keyboards. I quite fancy having a go at a Duet and have been contemplating ordering a Hayden (amongst other duet systems), you don't happen to have one of those do you ?

 

Hang on, just let me jump into my time-machine and fast-forward a bit...

 

 

Happy St.Patrick's Weekend to you

 

And (like they say around here) "Many happy returns" to yourself and Gabbi!

 

[Ardie]

Replacing the action does not have any effect on sound quality, only key pressure and action noise. You can only improve these parameters by installing a heavier (brass) action. Improvement will be around 10-15 grams of key pressure reduction. Noise reduction is too small to measure.

 

Can you please expound this a little?

1) How can the key pressure be reduced by a "heavier" action ?

2) What does 10-15 grams reduction of key pressure relate to?

3) You first say that replacing the action has an effect on action noise - and later "Noise reduction is too small to measure".

A misprint?

 

Reed quality classes relate to air flow resistant and harmonics they produce. Low end reeds produce less harmonics (less bright) and need a higher air flow value because of energy efficiency and reed resistance.

 

I am just trying to understand this.Do you *generally* mean that

1) Low end (= lower quality?) reeds *both*

- are less efficient ( lower sound amplitude/pressure gradient or air flow)

- produce less harmonics and thus sound "rounder"

2) High end (= higher quality?) reeds *both*

- are more efficient ( larger sound amplitude/pressure gradient or air flow)

- produce more harmonics and thus sound "brighter"

 

or is there another category

3) high end (=higher quality) efficient reeds which not sound harsh/bright?

If so - how are they designed? Does the frame venting have influence on the harmonic spectrum? Does the tongue tapering have influence on the harmonics?

 

Example: If you want an instrument to sound round, not harsh/bright, and the air flow value is 75, you can easily use reeds that need a 50 flow value and produce less harmonics...

 

But do these (more efficient) reeds not according to 1) and 2) above produce more harmonics? Or do you refer to another type of reeds according to 3) above ?

 

... If you install higher end reeds which need a lower air flow in this instrument, you will just get a brighter/harsher sound,

 

...this seems concordant with 1) and 2)

 

and a big risk that the high air flow will choke your reeds, especially when mounted ampliphonicly.

 

What does "ampliphonicly" mean? When I search the term it seems primarily related to some Soprani invention, not saying what it contains in detail.

 

Inventor: I agree with you that the action would improve with concertina buttons and bushing. The only problem is that it would almost double the price of the instrument.

 

Do You really mean that bushings and different buttons would almost double the price?? Would you mind saying - just in relative terms - how costs for woodworks/reedworks/bellows/complete action are distributed?

[Frank Edgley]

Ubik: I thought that the person who will be doing the conversion started already… We discussed your request and I emailed him the blueprints.

 

Replacing the action does not have any effect on sound quality, only key pressure and action noise. You can only improve these parameters by installing a heavier (brass) action. Improvement will be around 10-15 grams of key pressure reduction. Noise reduction is too small to measure. Airflow improvement is minimal. All our entry models (Jackie/Jack/Rochelle/Elise) score >95%. I can name quite a few higher priced traditional and accordion reeded concertinas that don’t even come close to these values….

 

Stephen is right, ‘a mano’ reeds do not sound better per se. Reed quality classes relate to air flow resistant and harmonics they produce. Low end reeds produce less harmonics (less bright) and need a higher air flow value because of energy efficiency and reed resistance.

Example: If you want an instrument to sound round, not harsh/bright, and the air flow value is 75, you can easily use reeds that need a 50 flow value and produce less harmonics, since your instrument produces way more than the minimum that is required. If you install higher end reeds which need a lower air flow in this instrument, you will just get a brighter/harsher sound, and a big risk that the high air flow will choke your reeds, especially when mounted ampliphonicly.

 

That’s another misconception. Reeds mounted in blocks are not of lesser quality… In fact, it is the opposite. Besides the technical reasons such as air flow consistency, foot print, etc., block mounted reeds are the preferred construction in accordions and bayans. Just think of it, don’t you think the engineers that design $50.000+ instruments know what they’re doing?

 

Although we also use ampliphonic construction in our intermediate instruments (Clover anglo and the english and duet models that will be introduced later this year) the reason is cost related, not quality.

It is a lot easier and cheaper to lay the reeds flat on the reed pan, and is fine as long as you can prevent pitch bending or reed choking due to excessive air flow. If you own an accordion reeded concertina try playing a lower note fairly loud. If the pitch drops, or when the reed doesn’t sound at all, the reason is the amplifonic mounting, not reed quality. It is a sign that there is something wrong with the design of your instrument.

 

Frank: I get the impression that you think ‘a mano’ reeds are made by a person with a saw and file, making the reed and frame by hand. If I am correct, you need to book a vacation to Ossimo and take a tour through the factory. A mano means the reeds are machine cut differently and tolerances are slightly smaller than other qualities and they are hand finished/checked. Like I explained before, the result is more harmonics and energy efficiency related than sound. One more assumption, I understand that you use the wide vented frames Harry Geuns developed years ago for the Wakker-Geuns models. If I am correct, than the values of your reeds don’t even come close to the new reeds we use in the Rochelle.

 

Inventor: I agree with you that the action would improve with concertina buttons and bushing. The only problem is that it would almost double the price of the instrument. The action has proven to be very reliable. With 3000-4000 instruments over a 7+ year period the failure rate is less than 0.5%.

Even with the 7” frame there is no space for extra reeds. Believe me, there is a lot more to it than just stuffing reeds in an instrument.

 

Wim Wakker

Concertina Connection Inc.

Wakker Concertinas