Tuning to Meantone

[SteveS]

As you may recall I have recently rebuilt a previously derelict brass-reeded Aeola TT (as featured in my avatar).

Having played this in for a while, I'm getting a feel for how the instrument plays and how it sounds.

 

I'm already being inspired to work on more song accompaniment - the reeds' sound is rich and mellow, but not as loud as a steel-reeded 'tina, so

I'm thinking it will be great for song accompaniment. It may not hold its own in a session - I can use my metal-ended steel-reeded Aeola TT for that.

 

At the moment it is tuned to philharmonic pitch and I've just started to retune it to modern concert.

 

But Geoff Wooff's meantone description of one of his 'tinas in another thread set me thinking could this be something I should consider for this instrument.

 

What are the advantages & disadvantages of tuning to meantone?

How might this sound in chords used for song accompaniment? (I have one song in mind that I think suits the key of Cm)?

What about playing together with other instruments - fiddle, harp?

What effect on playing technique might I expect?

 

I guess also that having spent many years assuming that that D#/Eb are the same notes (and G#/Ab), playing meantone may take some getting used to.

I suppose when reading a Eb or Ab in b-keys I play those notes, and not their # equivalents as I might otherwise have done. Similary when playing in #-keys I play the # notes and not the b equivalents.

 

Thanks, Steve

Edited January 1, 2011 by SteveS

[Theo]

Hi Steve

 

You will need to start off by defining which meantone temperament you are thinking about. Meantone is a family of temperaments, quarter-comma meantone being one. They share the feature of having a well tuned major third, unlike an ET major third which is about 14 cents too wide. In a meantone temperament many major chords will sound much smoother and calmer. The compromise that is made to achieve this is that not all fifths are well tuned, usually there is one interval in the circle of fifths which is seriously out of tune, known as the wolf interval, and in most music you would want to avoid this, unless you intend to make a deeply disturbing impression on your audience.

[SteveS]

Hi Steve

 

You will need to start off by defining which meantone temperament you are thinking about. Meantone is a family of temperaments, quarter-comma meantone being one. They share the feature of having a well tuned major third, unlike an ET major third which is about 14 cents too wide. In a meantone temperament many major chords will sound much smoother and calmer. The compromise that is made to achieve this is that not all fifths are well tuned, usually there is one interval in the circle of fifths which is seriously out of tune, known as the wolf interval, and in most music you would want to avoid this, unless you intend to make a deeply disturbing impression on your audience.

Theo

 

Your reply raises the issue of the relative merits of the different meantone temperaments, and their applicability to the concertina, which is why I guess I didnt mention any specific meantone temperament in my original posting.

 

Which have been used previously with concertinas?

 

You mention the smoothing out effect on major chords. What might I expect with say the Eb in the root (I'm thinking of Eb chord in Eb maj/Cm scales) where the third is a G natural.

 

I guess I may have to experiment - but which meantone temperament to experiment with is another question.

 

Steve

Edited January 1, 2011 by SteveS

[Greg Jowaisas]

Steve,

Another consideration might be the "easier harmonics" of brass reeds. For whatever reason I've found brass reeded instruments much easier on the ears. The thirds don't seem nearly as strident as with steel reed instruments. Perhaps the brass reed aeola already has what you are looking for?

 

Yes, the glorious thirds of alternative mean tone temperament might be nice but only if you don't visit the compromised 5ths and wolf note areas frequently.

 

Couple of nice books on temperaments:

 

"How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony" by Ross W. Duffin

 

"Temperament" by Stuart Isacoff

 

Let us know how it all turns out.

 

Greg

[Dave Weinstein]

How many of the drawbacks to Meantone are mitigated by the fact that the English Concertina actually has 14 notes per octave, instead of 12?

[David Barnert]

What are the advantages & disadvantages of tuning to meantone?

The answer to the original question here will depend on what keys you commonly play (sing) in. If you anticipate playing in many unrelated keys (some with sharps in the key signature and some with flats), then you are probably best off leaving it in equal temperament, where all keys are equally out of tune. Any mean tone system will mess up the intonation of part of such a repertoire.

 

But if you tend to stay in and around a few related keys that differ from each other by a small number of accidentals in the key signature, then using a mean tone temperament to tune up the 3rds that are common in those keys is likely to improve your intonation over what you could achieve with equal temperament.

 

What about playing together with other instruments - fiddle, harp?

I think folks tend to worry too much about playing along with instruments in different temperaments. This is my own opinion, and not established dogma. Violinists tend to temper their notes, sometimes without realizing it, by placing their fingers where they know it will sound best. When they play with a piano (equal temperament), it sounds fine. It might make playing with another concertina (in equal temperament) awkward, but if there is enough difference in timbre, there is room for each instrument to play in its own temperament.

 

What effect on playing technique might I expect?

Many concertina players tend to avoid playing 3rds in the same octave. I expect that with the true 3rds that mean tone affords, one could get out of that habit.

[Geoff Wooff]

With the EC keyboard I do not think there are any wolf Fifths in Meantone temperaments because of the doubling of Ab's and Eb's with G#'s and D#'s.

Well, I have just been through the cycle of fifths in the two Meantone systems that I have been using for many years and this is the results;

 

All Major fifths in Equal temperament are 'Narrow' by 2 cents. A perfect Fifth is an interval of 702 cents and an Equal tempered Fifth is 700 cents,or seven semitones.

 

All the Fifths in 1/5th Comma Meantone are Narrow by 4 cents and those in 1/4 Comma are narrow by 5 or 6 cents.This means that although the Fifths will 'beat', sound slightly out of tune, they are all the same.

 

Note deviations from Equal Temperament in cents:

 

1/4 Comma; A = 0, Bb= +18, B= -6, C= +11 , C#= -13, D= +4, D#= -20, Eb= +21, E= -3, F=+14, F#= -10

 

G= +7 , G#= -17, Ab= +24 .

 

1/5 Comma; A= 0, Bb= +10, B= -4, C= +6, C#= -8, D= +2, D#= -12, Eb= +12, E= -2, F= +8, F#= -6, G= +4, G#= -10

 

Ab= +14 .

 

Now when going around a cycle of Fifths A-E, E-B, B-F#, F#-C#, C#-G#, G#-D#,// Eb-Bb, Bb-F,F-C,C-G,G-D,D-A.

 

You will notice the change from D# to Eb in the middle of the cycle, this is the point of elimination of the Wolf Fifth with the EC keyboard. You can check this with the numbers given above.

So there are choices to be made with certain chords that include G#/Ab or D#/Eb which can make for a break of habititual fingering.

 

I would prefer to use 1/4 Comma for its smoother sound and perfect thirds but as can be seen by the numbers this would make things difficult when playing with other Equal tempered instruments, therefore I use the 1/5th Comma which is a compromise.

I usually base this on A as Zero ( A= 440hz.) but I cannot see why any note might be the starting point as long as the proportions are kept the same.

I have recently moved one of my EC's from an 'A' centred 1/5th Comma to G centred thus dropping the overall pitch by 4 Cents. This is due to the scale centre of the instruments that I play with in a band. This has brought the EC quite well in line with my wife's G Cornemuse and I also think it will work better for Irish Trad. especially with the Uilleann pipes which are not (or should not) be tuned to Equal Temperament because of the constant use of a drone harmony which would clash.

Edited January 1, 2011 by Geoff Wooff

[Theo]

Your reply raises the issue of the relative merits of the different meantone temperaments, and their applicability to the concertina, which is why I guess I didnt mention any specific meantone temperament in my original posting.

 

Which have been used previously with concertinas?

 

I have used quarter comma meantone when tuning 20 key anglos. Here the wolf interval is not available. In fact with these instruments I sometimes wonder why ET is the default tuning. 1/4 comma MT sounds great to my ear, but there is no absolute criterion for best. Many people are so accustomed to the compromises within ET that anything else sounds strange and even out of tune.

 

You mention the smoothing out effect on major chords. What might I expect with say the Eb in the root (I'm thinking of Eb chord in Eb maj/Cm scales) where the third is a G natural.

 

I guess I may have to experiment - but which meantone temperament to experiment with is another question.

 

Steve

 

And there are many other tuning schemes other than meantone which may also be worth trying.

[Dan Worrall]

The proof is in the pudding, or the playing. I have an ET CG Dipper and a quarter comma MT CG Tedrow.

 

The thirds on the Dipper, especially on the higher-pitched G row, tend to bite at the ears. A lot. Those thirds sound much better in MT. The fifths are of course pure on the ET, but on my MT instrument they don't sound too beat-y. I would say that, without measuring beats and such to perfection, the thirds and fifths sound about the same in MT. So you give up the pureness of the fifths and get playable thirds as a result.

 

On my GD Wheatstone, in ET, I don't find the thirds quite so piercing. At a lower pitch, the problem seems to be lessened a bit.

 

To over generalize a bit (no doubt not all will agree):

Most of the really old time players who frequently played chords--for example, William Kimber, or Hans Bodenstein, or Faan Harris--used more third interval partial chords than fifths, which is different than modern revival players who tend to avoid thirds and use fifths. Nineteenth century Anglo instruments were typically not tuned in ET, which may help explain that; the thirds sounded fine. And of course the thirds were easier to use when chording---there was not so much hunting and pecking for complex oompah chords by the old timers. Also, modern revival players seem to play fifth interval partial chords more for their antique-ish sound and/or their ambiguity (was that a minor or a major?)--or perhaps because they are simply avoiding the trashed third intervals on their ET instruments.

 

If you are going to play in a traditional manner, using mainly the home keys of C and G along with F and D, then in my humble opinion some sort of unequal temperment is much easier on the ears, especially if playing a lot in G on a metal-ended CG. If you are, however, prefer the unique sound of fifth partial chords, or have a fondness for the mental calculus of playing far-off keys, then I'd stick with ET.

[Johann]

How many of the drawbacks to Meantone are mitigated by the fact that the English Concertina actually has 14 notes per octave, instead of 12?

 

Hi all i would like to hear answers on this question.

I am quite convinced that there must be a traditional way of tuning concertinas by tuning this two additional notes slightly different. The only question that remains is on with button (note) the did start to tune, tuning perfect 5ths and perfect 3rds.

This leads to a tone net with pure 5ths and 3rds. Meantone is not needed because it is possible to stay with this pure intervals on the preferred scales one uses on this instrument. If there is no information about the tuning technique one needs to no the scales that one likes to use. I have no experience with concertinas, but i would think there must be more as i ever did find about it.

Best regards Johann Pascher

[Anglogeezer]

Hi, for those of you puzzled by this esoteric discussion, go here :-

 

The Mathematics of Tuning & Temprement

 

for an explanation.

 

regards

Jake

[Geoff Wooff]

How many of the drawbacks to Meantone are mitigated by the fact that the English Concertina actually has 14 notes per octave, instead of 12?

 

 

Quite a few, I feel. Whereas in Equal Temperament there is only one problem which is everthing sounds equally bad or good depending on how you hear it. In all other temperaments there are big pluses and some minuses.

I like to use thirds and so I prefer them to be sweeter although in 1/5th Comma they are not perfect and the fifths are worse than in EQ.Temp. I am now playing pieces that require all the chromatic notes and do not percieve any tuning problems that would send me back to E.T.

 

I also have a scale of notes that gives a complete set of perfect intervals but it is only usefull for playing in one or two keys and their related minors, though it does pronounce the Modes in all their moods properly. I don't think it will be of any use for concertina keyboards past the 20 key Anglo.

[RatFace]

With the EC keyboard I do not think there are any wolf Fifths in Meantone temperaments because of the doubling of Ab's and Eb's with G#'s and D#'s.

 

1/5 Comma; A= 0, Bb= +10, B= -4, C= +6, C#= -8, D= +2, D#= -12, Eb= +12, E= -2, F= +8, F#= -6, G= +4, G#= -10

 

You will notice the change from D# to Eb in the middle of the cycle, this is the point of elimination of the Wolf Fifth with the EC keyboard.

 

I'm not sure what you mean - surely the wolf is still there (but possibly slightly better hidden), because if you need to use a D# you _need_ to use a D# (-12) and if you then need to jump to an A# you're forced to jump to a Bb (+10) and that interval is going to be pretty bad.

 

When I eventually get around to getting my concertina tuned, I'd be much more inclined to consider one of the "well tempered"/unequal temperaments - either Vallotti or Bach/Lehman (described here)...

[Geoff Wooff]

With the EC keyboard I do not think there are any wolf Fifths in Meantone temperaments because of the doubling of Ab's and Eb's with G#'s and D#'s.

 

1/5 Comma; A= 0, Bb= +10, B= -4, C= +6, C#= -8, D= +2, D#= -12, Eb= +12, E= -2, F= +8, F#= -6, G= +4, G#= -10

 

You will notice the change from D# to Eb in the middle of the cycle, this is the point of elimination of the Wolf Fifth with the EC keyboard.

 

I'm not sure what you mean - surely the wolf is still there (but possibly slightly better hidden), because if you need to use a D# you _need_ to use a D# (-12) and if you then need to jump to an A# you're forced to jump to a Bb (+10) and that interval is going to be pretty bad.

 

When I eventually get around to getting my concertina tuned, I'd be much more inclined to consider one of the "well tempered"/unequal temperaments - either Vallotti or Bach/Lehman (described here)...

 

Well, yes there are allways compromises in these systems even in Bach's proposals unless we have a keyboard with many more alternatives . In the one you point out it might be necessary to use the Eb before moving to the Bb unless the unusual interval does not bother the player/listener.

I have,somewhere, a CD of a famous Harpsicordist who changes temperament for each of his recorded Bach suites so as to avoid these problems. Maybe some of us would then need several Concertinas in various tuning systems to satisfy our ears.

There are no Wolf Fifths in a direct line through the cycle with these Meantone's temperaments but, as you point out ,if one has to move from sharp keys to flat keys to improve a bad interval then a degree of 'wolf' will be percieved at some point.

 

However I think you could well be right? I must study this further.

Edited January 1, 2011 by Geoff Wooff

[SteveS]

I had a look at the Bach temperament - instinctively this seems more appropriate to the concertina and my application, especially when playing both major and minor keys - any temperament will ultimately be a compromise.

 

This chart offers a comparison of many temperaments.

 

If one were to adopt say the Bach temperament and convert from ET would it be better to keep the C or A constant - or some other note. By keeping the A constant I guess that can be tuned to 440Hz.

 

Given that the offsets are from a fixed note, then using the chart provides the offsets for the adjustments of individual notes. The tuning of Eb and G# (as -2 and -2 cents respectively with relative to C constant) offsets may be fine when tuned relative to the note C. How would one then go about tuning the D# and Ab notes and what would their cents offsets be?

Edited January 1, 2011 by SteveS

[JimLucas]

...modern revival players seem to play fifth interval partial chords more for their antique-ish sound and/or their ambiguity (was that a minor or a major?)...

No ambiguity.

An open fifth is neither a major nor a minor "lacking" a third, but a complete entity in its own right.

 

From my point of view, a better word than "ambiguous" would be "free", as in unconstrained by the presence of a third.

 

...or perhaps because they are simply avoiding the trashed third intervals on their ET instruments.

Some may have that motivation, but others -- I'm one -- will often use an open fifth because it gives a very different mood from a chord containing any third... major, minor, or even "blue".

[Larry Stout]

I have a baritone EC with German silver reeds (so it's an early one) which was tuned using Young's Number 2 temperament when I had it refurbished by Wim Wakker. I love the sound (though that may just be because it is of its range and its reed material-- it's very mellow). I played it for our Christmas ball with other instruments and noticed no more clash than usual. Of course, the rest of the instruments may not have been playing completely in tune (the piano was a bit beat up) so any sourness we might have heard might not be due to the temperament, but rather to the players.

[JimLucas]

Paul Groff knows a great deal about the different temperaments.

Anybody know what he's doing these days? His profile shows that it's been 3 months since he was "last active" in these Forums.

 

Here is a post by Paul in a previous discussion of essentially the same subject.

I recommend reading the entire thread. In fact, the second post refers to couple of additional threads.