Song v Tune

[Mikefule]

As Cliff Richard sang 'Ballads and calypsos got nothing on a real country music that just drives along'

 

 

Wow, I never thought I'd hear that song quoted in a debate! It was live on the first album I owned.

[cboody]

I've never actually believed that American's don't understand irony...till now!

 

Please rub my nose in the irony. I certainly don't see it; which seems ironic since I tend to use it often....

 

As to the rest of the discussion: I suppose distinguishing between "tune" and "song" could be disappearing from the language just as "awesome" no longer means anything much, "ballad" as pointed out above has changed meaning, no one seems to distinguish between "between" and "among" any more, and weather forecasters seem unable to use all the syllables of "temperature." That doesn't mean that I won't continue to fight a read guard action though.

[Rod]

I've never actually believed that American's don't understand irony...till now!

 

Please rub my nose in the irony. I certainly don't see it; which seems ironic since I tend to use it often....

 

As to the rest of the discussion: I suppose distinguishing between "tune" and "song" could be disappearing from the language just as "awesome" no longer means anything much, "ballad" as pointed out above has changed meaning, no one seems to distinguish between "between" and "among" any more, and weather forecasters seem unable to use all the syllables of "temperature." That doesn't mean that I won't continue to fight a read guard action though.

 

Playing with language can be as much fun as playing the Concertina !

[RAc]

I've never actually believed that American's don't understand irony...till now!

 

Please rub my nose in the irony. I certainly don't see it; which seems ironic since I tend to use it often....

 

As to the rest of the discussion: I suppose distinguishing between "tune" and "song" could be disappearing from the language just as "awesome" no longer means anything much, "ballad" as pointed out above has changed meaning, no one seems to distinguish between "between" and "among" any more, and weather forecasters seem unable to use all the syllables of "temperature." That doesn't mean that I won't continue to fight a read guard action though.

 

Playing with language can be as much fun as playing the Concertina !

 

True, but be careful: As Calvin and Hobbes once pointed out, verbing weirds language...

[michael sam wild]

I've never actually believed that American's don't understand irony...till now!

 

Please rub my nose in the irony. I certainly don't see it; which seems ironic since I tend to use it often....

 

As to the rest of the discussion: I suppose distinguishing between "tune" and "song" could be disappearing from the language just as "awesome" no longer means anything much, "ballad" as pointed out above has changed meaning, no one seems to distinguish between "between" and "among" any more, and weather forecasters seem unable to use all the syllables of "temperature." That doesn't mean that I won't continue to fight a read guard action though.

 

Playing with language can be as much fun as playing the Concertina !

 

And if you push the wrong buttons it can be just as irritating

Why oh why can't everybody use the same language as me?

Disgusted , Sheffield

Edited December 16, 2010 by michael sam wild

[David Levine]

At this point in the discussion I suppose it doesn't much matter, but I have never heard an accomplished player refer to a tune as a "song."

When I do hear somebody refer to a tune as a "song" I think of that person as somebody who is not very conversant with the music.

I can't recall ever hearing anybody refer to a song as a "tune."

Edited December 16, 2010 by David Levine

[Anglo-Irishman]

When I do hear somebody refer to a tune as a "song" I think of that person as somebody who is not very conversant with the music.

 

David,

This is a very valid point. Basically, you are at liberty to talk any way you like about anything - but you must be aware that people will draw the appropriate conclusions.

 

Just to confuse the issue at hand:

If it isn't sung, it isn't a song.

 

However, not everything that is sung is a song. It could be an aria or a recitative or a Gregorian chant. Or it might be a special type of song that we call something else, like a Lied or a chanson. These both mean simply "song" in their original languages, but when we use them in English, their meaning narrows down to a specific genre of song.

 

I suppose you'd call Ella Fitzgerald's scat and that laughing number by the Russian guy with the lovely smile "pieces of vocal music" to be on the safe side. Yodelling is another example, though it is usually inserted as a break in a regular song with real words. And the old Gaelic lilting is vocal dance music. It does have words, but they're nonsense words, so Scots and Irish people wouldn't call a lilted tune a song.

 

So to narrow down the definition of a "song", you have to specify an intelligible lyric.

 

Yes, playing with language is just as much fun as playing the concetina!

 

Cheers,

John

[Rod]

When I do hear somebody refer to a tune as a "song" I think of that person as somebody who is not very conversant with the music.

 

David,

This is a very valid point. Basically, you are at liberty to talk any way you like about anything - but you must be aware that people will draw the appropriate conclusions.

 

Just to confuse the issue at hand:

If it isn't sung, it isn't a song.

 

However, not everything that is sung is a song. It could be an aria or a recitative or a Gregorian chant. Or it might be a special type of song that we call something else, like a Lied or a chanson. These both mean simply "song" in their original languages, but when we use them in English, their meaning narrows down to a specific genre of song.

 

I suppose you'd call Ella Fitzgerald's scat and that laughing number by the Russian guy with the lovely smile "pieces of vocal music" to be on the safe side. Yodelling is another example, though it is usually inserted as a break in a regular song with real words. And the old Gaelic lilting is vocal dance music. It does have words, but they're nonsense words, so Scots and Irish people wouldn't call a lilted tune a song.

 

So to narrow down the definition of a "song", you have to specify an intelligible lyric.

 

Yes, playing with language is just as much fun as playing the concetina!

 

Cheers,

John

 

Yes, a 'song' should definitely have intelligible lyrics. That excludes 'humming', 'yodelling' etc. but where does that leave what I believe the jazz men call 'scat-singing', other than needing yet another name to call it. Or more importantly, does it really matter !

[Rod]

When I do hear somebody refer to a tune as a "song" I think of that person as somebody who is not very conversant with the music.

 

David,

This is a very valid point. Basically, you are at liberty to talk any way you like about anything - but you must be aware that people will draw the appropriate conclusions.

 

Just to confuse the issue at hand:

If it isn't sung, it isn't a song.

 

However, not everything that is sung is a song. It could be an aria or a recitative or a Gregorian chant. Or it might be a special type of song that we call something else, like a Lied or a chanson. These both mean simply "song" in their original languages, but when we use them in English, their meaning narrows down to a specific genre of song.

 

I suppose you'd call Ella Fitzgerald's scat and that laughing number by the Russian guy with the lovely smile "pieces of vocal music" to be on the safe side. Yodelling is another example, though it is usually inserted as a break in a regular song with real words. And the old Gaelic lilting is vocal dance music. It does have words, but they're nonsense words, so Scots and Irish people wouldn't call a lilted tune a song.

 

So to narrow down the definition of a "song", you have to specify an intelligible lyric.

 

Yes, playing with language is just as much fun as playing the concetina!

 

Cheers,

John

 

Yes, a 'song' should definitely have intelligible lyrics. That excludes 'humming', 'yodelling' etc. but where does that leave what I believe the jazz men call 'scat-singing', other than needing yet another name to call it. Or more importantly, does it really matter !

 

I tapped the preceding comment before fully reading John's excellent contribution. Sorry John !

[Marien]

Like the english word song, the dutch word ´lied´ refers to a bunch of words together that can be sung on a specific melody.

 

An old Dutch song goes: "Elke vogel zingt zijn lied..", in english: "Every bird sings his song...". Does a bird sing words? To be honoust I don´t recognise words when I think of a singing bird - ignoring parrots, craws and charlie parker - The old use of the word song refers to music coming out of a mouth or beak.

 

One could say an instrument sings, when it resonates better compared to an average instrument. If you hear a great violin player you can say that the strings are singing as if they were alive.

 

I don´t use the word tune to refer to the words of the song, but the melody of the song can be called a tune. To me a tune is nothing more than a melody. But it may be so that "let's play this tune" is an invitation to do more than just play that melody...

 

But what is in a word. Words fail when it comes down to music, you got to hear it...

[JimLucas]

Is it me or are there others who get confused over the way the terms 'song' and 'tune' are used?

It's not just you.

I think that you'll find it to be a "pond" thing, in terms of origin.

Pond thing. Shucks, I believe that the use of "song" meaning any melody sung or played is a Southern US usage that is regional but spreading.

Using "song" for "tune" seems to be a usage that is uncommon, but increasing. And far from having a recent origin from a single source, it's apparently a usage with either deep (Appalachian, Irish, ...) or shallow (MP3) roots in various communities.

 

Context is also important, since I doubt that many of us who are irritated by the word "song" being applied to a wordless jig or reel would think twice about "the song of the blackbird" or "the lyricist-composer sold his song for a song".

 

This has come up here before.

E.g.,

here

.

[JimLucas]

Maybe it's a distinction that musicians make and non-musicians don't ..

Nope.

Not so simple.

I know both musicians and non-musicians (wasn't that another thread not too long ago?) on both sides of this linguistic divide.

[JimLucas]

There definitely is confusion here is Canada. You can hear both the correct and the North American usage here.

Wait a minute! "correct and the North American usage?" What difference are you talking about?

I've never actually believed that American's don't understand irony...till now!

Depends on your definition of "irony".

I've learned that to (at least some) Brits, "irony" is synonymous with "sarcasm". In the language as I learned it, the meanings of the two words don't even overlap.

 

So as I understand those words, if Paul's statement was indeed sarcastic, then it wasn't "ironic", but if he was not being sarcastic, then that would indeed be ironic.

 

And given the different understandings of the word "ironic", its use in the context of this discussion is itself somewhat ironic.

But I suspect I'm just

singing to the choir

.

[Anglo-Irishman]

An old Dutch song goes: "Elke vogel zingt zijn lied..", in english: "Every bird sings his song...". Does a bird sing words? To be honoust I don´t recognise words when I think of a singing bird - ignoring parrots, craws and charlie parker - The old use of the word song refers to music coming out of a mouth or beak.

 

Marien,

 

To be honest, I don't recognise words when I hear the singing of a Chinese or African human being, either. But that's just my ignorance . It sounds like singing all the same.

The ornithologists tell us that birds are expressing themselves in their language when they sing - it's only because we don't understand their language that we think they're only whistling tunes. So "bird-song" is not a contradiction in terms!

 

If anyone is interested, I have a little essay on "Song" on my homepage. Probably more than you wanted to know, but it states the position of someone who is both a professional wordsmith and a trained singer!

 

Cheers,

John

[Marien]

 

...Probably more than you wanted to know, but it states the position of someone who is both a professional wordsmith and a trained singer!....

 

 

John,

 

To read that is much more interesting than reading the computer programs I wrote....

 

Marien

[cboody]

Irony = sarcasm in some parts of the world. Ah! I'm enlightened.

 

Now this business about song: There are multiple meanings to the term. "A song" is not the same as "song" and neither necessarily completely equates to "singing." I suppose one can go on to detail the different meanings historically and culturally of those words, but I don't think that is germaine (sp?) to this discussion. Anna Russell once called folk song "The uncouth vocal utterance of the people." A silly way to put it but the definition is not far from what is usually meant in the trad world. Yes you have ballads and sean nos singing and lilting and mouth music, each of which can stretch the definition in a different way. But in general, at least for me, the differentiation between tune and song is very simple: one uses the voice and one doesn't. If one plays Star of the County Down one refers to a tune. If one sings Star of the County Down it magically becomes a song. I suppose one could think of a melody as a tune and the addition of lyrics and voice creating a song. I'm a bit uncomfortable with that though. Rather I just think of "voice-no voice."

 

And, I agree with those who have found that the folks who usually confuse the two are most often those without much experience in the trad world.

[Anglo-Irishman]

And, I agree with those who have found that the folks who usually confuse the two are most often those without much experience in the trad world.

 

I think you're right, in that the usage of "tune" and "song" can be a bit genre-specific.

 

Listening to pop music - the stuff that gets into the charts and is downloaded to the general listening public's iPods - it seems to me that it consists to about 99% of songs in the strict sense of "lyrics set to music". I seldom if ever hear instrumental numbers on the pop radio channels. So almost everything that the pop audience hears is a song, so "song" becomes synonymous with "a piece of pop music", and they unthinkingly transfer this usage to other genres.

In other genres, notably British and American trad., there is still a lot of instrumental music, so the concept of a piece that is not a song is still current there, and the word "tune" is quite naturally used to designate it.

 

But the word "tune" has different meanings, too. For singers, the tune is just part of the song, the words being the other part. With hymns and psalms (which are a subset of "songs") tunes tend to have a life of their own - one hymn or psalm can be sung to different tunes. In fact, in the old Scottish Psalter, the pages are split in half, so you can turn to the psalm and the tune separately. Scottish Presbyterians know the psalm tunes by their titles (like Crimond, Duke Street, etc.), not by the first line of a particular psalm.

 

With folk songs, the tune is usually "wedded" to a song, so we call the tune "Star of the Co. Down" or "Blow the Wind Southerly" because those are the songs that they are part of.

 

In traditional fiddling, "tune" has more the sense of "a piece of fiddle music". This is because the tune is all there is in a reel or jig.

 

When is it a tune, and when is it a melody?

This is just my theory, but I see a tune as a functional entity that is tied to something else. The tune of a song must match the metre of the lyrics, and a dance tune must fit the steps and figures of the dance.

 

A "melody" can be a free sequence of intervals and note lengths, but it is also used as a contrast to "harmony" in more complex music, either vocal or instrumental. On my Duet concertina, for instance, I would say that I usually play the melody on the right and the harmony on the left. Fiddlers don't need the term "melody", because they always play the melody of the tune anyway ...

 

Cheers,

John

[doodle]

In case any flames need to be fanned even higher, English players tend to understand that pub sessions can be "song" or "music" sessions or a sprinkling of both if the folks fancy.....its just the way it is!