"jeffries Concertina"

[Stephen Chambers]

And what are we to make of this one?

 

There are no photos, it doesn't even say what system it is, or what key, or keys (depending on system), it is in, though the seller seems to have some knowledge of concertinas, and concertina dealers. Also the seller is a "newbie", it's a three-day auction, there is a low opening bid and no reserve.

 

It wouldn't inspire me with confidence to bid !

 

Maybe somebody in London could ask about taking a look at it ?

Edited June 16, 2004 by Stephen Chambers

[Erik Murray]

That description seems familiar. I think it may have been lifted from a website describing a concertina that wasn't even for sale. I'd bet on it being a bogus listing.

E

[Clive Thorne]

And no picture !!

 

Clive.

 

 

Whops, sorry Stephen, its now 3 days later and I've just noticed that you'd alreday mentioned this !!

Edited June 17, 2004 by Clive Thorne

[RP3]

I thought it was interesting that the listing referred to both Paul Groff and Chris Algar as having evaluated this instrument. While it is possible, they are on the opposite sides of the Atlantic. Also, I remember reading that description somewhere else -- I just can't remember where.

 

Buyer beware!

[Theo]

The first bidder "thesilverguy" is someone who I have traded with on ebay. I have sent him the link to the cnet discussion on fraud.

 

Paul or Chris should be able to verify thius one.

 

 

Theo

Edited June 16, 2004 by Theo

[Paul Groff]

Hello all,

 

I had no advance knowledge of this auction, do not know who the seller is, and suspect he or she is not legitimate. I think the description was taken from comments posted by Bob DeVellis (years ago), an American who bought his concertina in England from Chris and who has showed it to me on a few occasions. If he were to sell it, using the description he previously posted under his name, I suspect he would be more forthcoming about his identity. If someone who bought that instrument from Bob were re-selling it, using his description, again I would expect less anonymity.

 

I'll take a look through this site to see if I am right, and edit this post if necessary. In the meantime, I would advise scepticism.

 

Paul

 

Edited to correct the spelling of Bob's name (sorry, buddy!).

 

If my memory serves, the description was on Bob's concertina pages (see the "links" section of this site, alphabetized under "Bob"), but the link appears to be broken now.

Edited June 16, 2004 by Paul Groff

[rmerris]

But what do you make of the fact that "thesilverguy (646 Star)" has placed a bid on it? "646" indicates a lot of Ebay buy/sell experience, whether or not "thesilverguy" has much experience with concertinas.

 

Can it be presumed that "the silverguy" is a good samaritan, trying to police a bogus offer?

 

Who was that Silverguy? That was the Lone Ranger.

 

The scammer is willing to accept PayPal. I can understand the potential for completing a bogus transaction through a wire transfer or money order, but would it be possible through PayPal?

 

Why wouldn't the scammer be smart enough to post a Reserve Price, knowing that not many perspective bidders would believe a Jeffries with no reserve? And no basic description of the instrument (e.g., number of keys) or photos? If someone were a crook, would it be expected that they would be both crooked and stupid?

 

I do not think the concertina fraternity should be required to police these auctions that are blatantly bogus. We are not the Texas Rangers. Maybe there is a place for trying to help out with more sophisticed scams.

 

As Horace Greeley said, "There's a sucker born every minute." We cannot change the fact. If a scammer advertises the Brooklyn Bridge in Ebay, so be it.

 

("There is a sucker born every minute" is usually attrubuted to P.T. Barnum. Horace Greeley, editorializing in the Denver Post, claimed that P.T. Barnum was the type of guy who lived by the motto "There's a sucker born every minute," and the motto was forever more attributed to Barnum.)

[JimLucas]

Who was that Silverguy? That was the Lone Ranger.

I thought it was The Silver (Internet) Surfer.

 

The scammer is willing to accept PayPal.

Put "seller" in quotes, if you like, but please don't say "the scammer" unless and until you're sure.

 

If someone were a crook, would it be expected that they would be both crooked and stupid?

Stranger -- and stupider -- things have happened. (Several political comments surpressed. )

 

I do not think the concertina fraternity should be required to police these auctions that are blatantly bogus. We are not the Texas Rangers.

I think you're painting us with the wrong brush. No, we should not feel obliged to spend a great deal of time searching for scams. But if in looking for something else, such as an instrument to buy, we come across a scam -- or a likely scam -- it is to everyone's benefit -- even ours -- to do what we can to stop the theft and prevent future attempts.

 

I don't go out of my way looking for robberies to stop, but if I happen upon one in progress, I'll do my best to stop it.

 

On the other hand, if this is legitimate -- albeit naive -- labelling it a scam without evidence could mean that the seller gets paid too little, and a bunch of us miss getting a lovely instrument for a (possibly) decent price. Wouldn't you be embarrassed if somebody announced here that they had just taken delivery of such a beautiful instrument, for which they paid only £300.

[Theo]

Thesilverguy has now withdrawn his bid.

 

I found him a very genuine ebay partner. As far as I know he is a genuine antique dealer. As such he probably is aware the Jeffries is a good make of concertina. The majority of his ebay activity seems to be selling, so he might not be aware of the prevelance of scams on high value items.

 

I've asked the seller of the Jeffries for photographs and information on the system. We'll have to wait and see if there is a response.

 

Theo

[Stephen Chambers]

I've asked the seller of the Jeffries for photographs and information on the system.  We'll have to wait and see if there is a response.

Don't hold your breath !

 

I asked him for the same information 10 hours ago, but I have had no reply.

[Henk van Aalten]

I asked him for the same information 10 hours ago, but I have had no reply.

Stephen,

I did the same at almost the same time

[David Levine]

I offered $5,000. Not surprisingly I haven't heard back from "xinutal."

Sounds like a sinus medication, doesn't it?

Hmm, on second thought maybe I'll go back and offer $20,000....

[rmerris]

Jim,

 

You are right. I should have said "seller." Hope I do not get sued for libel.

 

Regarding my embarrassment if it is not bogus ... maybe, again, you are right. Folks, I want to go on record as saying that maybe its for real--although the probability sure does not seem high to me, and I still do not know whether it is Anglo or duet (unlikely, English) or how many keys, let alone whether it is a C. Jeffries Maker, Jeffries Bros, or C. Jeffries 12 Aldershot Rd. But I know that, if it exists, it has great bellows! Far be it from me to discourage any eager bidders.

 

I just looked on both the US and UK Ebay sites, and did not see the listing. Maybe I overlooked the listings on both sites.

 

If not longer listed, maybe you can contact "xinutal (0)" directly and still arrange a purchase at a ridiculously low price. Even if it requires extensive restoration, the "seller" may give you a "real deal" on a 20 key (few), 26 key, 30/31 key, 37/38 key, 44/45 key, or 50 key (few) Anglo or a Crane or Jeffries-system duet--no matter what kind of Jeffries, at those low, low prices.

 

Is that more like it, Jim.

[Erik Murray]

Here is where we've read the listing text:

http://www.sosyourmom.com/devellis/jef.html

There is a picture right there too. I guess that was too much trouble to bother with.

E

[Michael Reid]

I just looked on both the US and UK Ebay sites, and did not see the listing. Maybe I overlooked the listings on both sites.

I think it's gone for good. Clicking on Stephen's link (in the first post in this topic) now brings up eBay's "invalid item" message: "The item you requested ( 3730841429 ) is invalid, still pending, or no longer in our database."

[A.D. Homan]

If not longer listed, maybe you can contact "xinutal (0)" directly and still arrange a purchase at a ridiculously low price.

 

 

I'm sure that "xinutal" would now offer a low, low price to anyone who is still interested!

The auction shut down when xinutal, or eBay, terminated it along with the ID.

 

I just had a "chat" with eBay online help. I'll clip it below (the eBay side of the conversation). Basically, I could not get them to reveal why that auction, and the other one, where closed. They kept asking for the auction numbers, and tried to get me to look at the other (Jeffries G/D) auction, which is legit. Well, there isn't any more record of the two fraud auctions, not even as past auctions. They are GONE. Then they asked for the user IDs. I had to track them down from our discussions here. I gave them to them and they informed me that the most they could reveal (in order to protect the privacy -- of who? what? a non-existent seller?) was that either the seller closed down his own ID, or eBay closed down the auction. At least I got her to admit that if eBay closes down an auction, it is because there is a violation of some eBay rule, although they will not reveal which rule was broken. They absolutely refuse to admit (or understand) that these auctions affect other sellers....

 

So, for anyone interested in such things, see the eBay responses below. It's somewhat entertaining but I wouldn't count on it showing up in Harpers...

Remember, eBay claims to be monitoring these auctions (without "our" assistance). If you believe that one, there's a bridge down the street from me that I'd like to sell to you...

Andy

Brooklyn, NY

 

 

 

Your chat session has started..

Tiffany S.:  I apologize for the wait. Thank-you for waiting!

Tiffany S.:  Good Afternoon. Welcome to live chat. My name is Tiffany.

Tiffany S.:  If items are removed by sellers, its because the item is no longer available, damaged etc.

Tiffany S.:  If its removed by us, then the seller has violated something on our site.

Tiffany S.:  Do you have any of the item #'s? Are you planning on selling that type of item?

Tiffany S.:  Let me check on that, one moment.

Tiffany S.:  Actually I wouldn't say that, because if other membes get cancelled and yours is up, then you get all the traffic, and business for that.

Tiffany S.:  I show one listing is up, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...ssPageName=WDVW

Tiffany S.:  I wouldn't be worried about selling this item.

Tiffany S.:  That listing I gave you is through another seller.

Tiffany S.:  All the time listings are taken off, for different reasons, It won't hurt your status or your auction.

Tiffany S.:  Is JeffriesinG/D their user id?

Tiffany S.:  Why would listings getting taken off, lessen the desire to bid high on other items?

Tiffany S.:  Unless it was your listing, I don't see how it affects you.

Tiffany S.:  Just so you know , we do let bidders know if those sellers have violated something on their listing and that was why it was removed.

Tiffany S.:  Just as we let bidders know if the item selling is against eBay policies, I'm sorry that you feel this is causing a decrease in your bids.

Tiffany S.:  How long have you been a seller on eBay?

Tiffany S.:  Do you remember the seller's user id?

Tiffany S.:  Once they're removed we can only find those items and why , by the seller's user id.

Tiffany S.:  I'm sorry for the confusion.

Tiffany S.:  What is your user id?

Tiffany S.:  Thanks

Tiffany S.:  What you can do since your a new seller on the site, Is list more information on your listings, and answer all emails that you get needing correspondence for the item.

Tiffany S.:  Sure , take your time.

Tiffany S.:  I can skim over the reasons, but I cannot give out any personal information that relates to those sellers.

Tiffany S.:  Just if we removed it = the seller violating a policy, Or if they removed it.

Tiffany S.:  ok

Tiffany S.:  We ended the listings. Do you have the other seller id.

Tiffany S.:  That is the one I just checked.

Tiffany S.:  And we ended the listing.

Tiffany S.:  If a member violates any eBay policy we will end the listings.

Tiffany S.:  Or if the member is no longer part of eBay. We will end the listings active.

Tiffany S.:  We do monitor the site for problems such as that. And we do take complaints and look into them seriously. It is against eBay policies to give the exact detailed reason as to why.

Tiffany S.:  Yes we do recognize the rate of fraud buyers and sellers on the site, that is why we monitor.

Tiffany S.:  I understand that its frustrating as a new seller .. for what potential buyers will think when other sellers listings get cancelled.

Tiffany S.:  However we do inform bidders... of what is going on. So they're aware.

Tiffany S.:  So it affects that seller and not other sellers.

Tiffany S.:  Have you reported all of that to Trust and Safety?

Tiffany S.:  So they can look into that further.

Tiffany S.:  For that information you should email that department directly.

Tiffany S.:  Let me point you into the correct direction. I can't give you details in this situation, but you can go to this link and the trust and safety department can further assist you and get this and get it all straightened out.

Tiffany S.:  The Trust and Safety webform is located at: http://pages.ebay.com/help/basics/select-RS.html

Tiffany S.:  Your welcome.

Tiffany S.:  Thanks for using live chat! Come back anytime if you need any further assistance, and have a great evening.

[Greg Jowaisas]

Excellent work at uncovering the souce material, Erik!

 

If there is no way to prosecute Xinutal we can at least fail him in composition due to his plagerism.

 

Now Erik can focus his entire attention to discovering the identity of the mysterious and profligate Mr."Busmick".

 

(Personally, I think it was Jim, in the parlor with the candlestick.) You will have to pardon me. All these recent Ebay Jeffries and the machinations surrounding them have left me giddy and without a "Clue".

 

Thanks to all for sharing information.

 

Greg

 

PS. Concerning "Busmick" I am being totally facetious. I do not know nor care who "Busmick" is, although I must admit he has great taste in concertinas. He may only be reflecting the advent of a "mature" concertina market. If so, it will showcase the value "pound for pound", "bang for your buck", (fill in your currency here______) that the Tedrows, Morses, Edgleys (and Carrolls) are giving us with today's instruments.

Edited June 16, 2004 by Greg Jowaisas

[JimLucas]

Even if it requires extensive restoration, the "seller" may give you a "real deal" on a 20 key (few), 26 key, 30/31 key, 37/38 key, 44/45 key, or 50 key (few) Anglo or a Crane or Jeffries-system duet--no matter what kind of Jeffries, at those low, low prices.

 

Is that more like it, Jim.

Close. You missed out Maccann (I know of one, as opposed to two Englishes), and all the Crane duets by Jeffries that I've seen (three of them) were 59-button.

 

.........