"Noel Hill system" players

[Daniel Hersh]

I may be opening a giant can of worms, but...

 

After looking over some old threads here and thinking about players I know or know of, I'm starting to get the feeling that many of the Anglo players who have devoted themselves to Noel Hill's approach to playing Irish dance music are not themselves Irish, but seem to be mostly Americans who play Irish music. On the other hand, some of the Anglo players who have posted more critical comments about it seem to be Irish people living in Ireland. Is this others' impression too? And if so, any ideas as to why this might be?

 

[hides, in anticipation of eggs, tomatoes and brickbats being thrown in my direction...]

[Ken_Coles]

One thing to point out is the Noel has taught a great many young kids in Ireland (I know that in the past many weeks of the year he drove all over the country to do so). Some of them have gone on to be very promising and accomplished players. My impression is he earns little or nothing from this; the higher profile workshops for paying adult students you hear about here produce a good part of what he lives on. The young Irish students, on the other hand, are more focused on a musical genre than an instrument, so you won't encounter many of them here on this forum.

 

Historically there have been multiple styles of fingering (and playing) Irish music on anglo. Today there are multiple techniques. I'd bet double money (if I were the betting type) it will always be so. My view is that when you learn an instrument (I've done several now) it pays to choose one method/system/technique and stick with it for a good while. You'll know when you're ready to branch out and experiment with other approaches. Noel teaches one approach in a consistent way and shows how to apply it to multiple musical situations and needs. He happens to be available for instruction in person now and then. Other approaches are better covered in books, or videos, or by other teachers (inside and outside of Ireland). Choose one, practice, play. Enjoy your music, your concertina, and your life. I'll leave debates about the various methods of different approaches to playing (which have no conceivable resolution) to others.

 

Ken

[ceemonster]

[many of the Anglo players who have devoted themselves to Noel Hill's approach to playing Irish dance music are not themselves Irish, but seem to be mostly Americans who play Irish music. On the other hand, some of the Anglo players who have posted more critical comments about it seem to be Irish people living in Ireland]

 

i haven't seen it break down this way. the feel i've gotten is, the people you hear literalizing and carrying on about following the nh method to the enth degree and whether, gasp, it's "okay" to diverge from it, or whether, gasp, you're gonna get a spankie-wankie for playing this "d" instead of the nh "d," and asking permission to, gasp, do it differently, seem to tend to be non-irish learners and tend to be adult learners. i have not heard irish players, particularly those who start young, arguing for or against the nh method, or troubling themselves over these (non) issues, and one does get the cheery impression that this is for the simple reason that they could care less about these debates. they are too busy actually getting good at the instrument, and doing what works for them even when they get started via some method or other. most who learn at some point from nh also get input from a bunch of master concertina players through workshops, cce activities, or their local community maestros. they're not preoccupied with debates about methods. they're too busy playing up a storm....

[Daniel Hersh]

[many of the Anglo players who have devoted themselves to Noel Hill's approach to playing Irish dance music are not themselves Irish, but seem to be mostly Americans who play Irish music. On the other hand, some of the Anglo players who have posted more critical comments about it seem to be Irish people living in Ireland]

 

i haven't seen it break down this way. the feel i've gotten is, the people you hear literalizing and carrying on about following the nh method to the enth degree and whether, gasp, it's "okay" to diverge from it, or whether, gasp, you're gonna get a spankie-wankie for playing this "d" instead of the nh "d," and asking permission to, gasp, do it differently, seem to tend to be non-irish learners and tend to be adult learners. i have not heard irish players, particularly those who start young, arguing for or against the nh method, or troubling themselves over these (non) issues, and one does get the cheery impression that this is for the simple reason that they could care less about these debates. they are too busy actually getting good at the instrument, and doing what works for them even when they get started via some method or other. most who learn at some point from nh also get input from a bunch of master concertina players through workshops, cce activities, or their local community maestros. they're not preoccupied with debates about methods. they're too busy playing up a storm....

 

Thanks -- that's what I was trying to find out, and about what I suspected. It's what I was getting at when I used the word "devoted" rather than, say, "influenced". From my vantage point in the US, I think that part of the cause of this may be that there haven't been a lot of other master-level Irish-style players available to learn from here.

[Mikefule]

Some people set out to learn or "buy into" a tradition, and the mindset that goes with this probably predisposes them to thinking there is a "right way" and a "wrong way". Some people just get on with it, using whatever influences and techniques they pick up along the way.

 

With the same note sometimes appearing 3 times on the instrument, and available in each bellows direction and sometimes on each end, it would be foolish to avoid using one option "on principle". But there is usually a best way in any given situation.

[david_boveri]

I may be opening a giant can of worms, but...

 

After looking over some old threads here and thinking about players I know or know of, I'm starting to get the feeling that many of the Anglo players who have devoted themselves to Noel Hill's approach to playing Irish dance music are not themselves Irish, but seem to be mostly Americans who play Irish music. On the other hand, some of the Anglo players who have posted more critical comments about it seem to be Irish people living in Ireland. Is this others' impression too? And if so, any ideas as to why this might be?

 

[hides, in anticipation of eggs, tomatoes and brickbats being thrown in my direction...]

 

i would consider myself irish. i may have been born in america, but i have been raised listening to and learning irish music. i learned to play music from my family (hint, they're irish), and there is rarely a tune i play that i did not learn directly from someone from ireland.

 

my nationality has nothing to do with my opinions. as i have said before--if tim collins or mary mcnamara would be so pleased as to spend a month in the states doing intensive, week long workshops, i (we) would be talking about their advice as much as noel hill's. but, they have never done such a thing. in fact, no one else has. summer festivals with dozens of available workshops are nice, but there isn't really an opportunity to do any in depth learning and integration of what was taught.

 

 

[many of the Anglo players who have devoted themselves to Noel Hill's approach to playing Irish dance music are not themselves Irish, but seem to be mostly Americans who play Irish music. On the other hand, some of the Anglo players who have posted more critical comments about it seem to be Irish people living in Ireland]

 

i haven't seen it break down this way. the feel i've gotten is, the people you hear literalizing and carrying on about following the nh method to the enth degree and whether, gasp, it's "okay" to diverge from it, or whether, gasp, you're gonna get a spankie-wankie for playing this "d" instead of the nh "d," and asking permission to, gasp, do it differently, seem to tend to be non-irish learners and tend to be adult learners. i have not heard irish players, particularly those who start young, arguing for or against the nh method, or troubling themselves over these (non) issues, and one does get the cheery impression that this is for the simple reason that they could care less about these debates. they are too busy actually getting good at the instrument, and doing what works for them even when they get started via some method or other. most who learn at some point from nh also get input from a bunch of master concertina players through workshops, cce activities, or their local community maestros. they're not preoccupied with debates about methods. they're too busy playing up a storm....

 

i disagree. i think fingering choice is definitely much more than a non-issue! it is through the analysis and debate over fingerings and technical nuances that the dissemination of technique occurs. i think it is a shame that there is not more arguing about it from other perspectives, especially on other concertina types. so, are you suggesting that we just sit around, "naturally pick it up," and never think about it? i wonder what you imagine the musical process to be. i can't think of a single professional musician who isn't absolutely obsessive over tiny minutiae such as fingering choices. martin hayes on the fiddle, for example, has a very particular style of bowing. he will tell you very directly that it is not considered correct, but you better believe that he has spent countless hours choosing to do this intentionally, going back and forth between the "right" way and his way. i am sure of this because he will not tell you just that he does it, but WHY he does it--it is an essential aspect of his tone.

 

i am not convinced that there is only one way to play the anglo concertina. in fact, i know several (if i know any a tall! ): i can play the old style (in the rows), the noel hill style, the so-called "in the rows style" that many advocate (which i consider to be another across the rows style), and the british style. i also play in the octaves two different ways: the way noel hill taught me, and a way based on how brian peters taught me to play british style. i actually will use both ways to play in octaves, even in the same tune!

 

the reason that kids in ireland may not argue about it does not mean it is not a valid exercise in improving technique and control. as you can probably tell, i like learning how other people play, learning to copy it, and then integrating it into my style. i like to debate about methods. the result of this is that i can make informed decisions about my playing, adapt, and make changes as i see fit. because i have spent so much time obsessing over fingering and methods, i can change my fingering at will to accommodate a chord, effect, or phrasing i would like to do.

 

i disagree that these "born and bred in ireland" kids you refer to who do not care about technique are just too busy getting good at the instrument. how do you get good if you do not care about technique? what in all likelihood is happening is that they are being taught by their teachers to do it one way, and they just do it without questioning--the very thing that many criticize noel hill's american adult students of doing.

 

Some people set out to learn or "buy into" a tradition, and the mindset that goes with this probably predisposes them to thinking there is a "right way" and a "wrong way". Some people just get on with it, using whatever influences and techniques they pick up along the way.

 

With the same note sometimes appearing 3 times on the instrument, and available in each bellows direction and sometimes on each end, it would be foolish to avoid using one option "on principle". But there is usually a best way in any given situation.

 

what other way would there be to play irish music than to learn it? i cannot likewise imagining committing to something without "buying in" to different sets of norms and rules. it is not foolish to choose a fingering for a note based on principle, if the principle is well thought out and based on experience. likewise, it is not foolish to have a different principle guiding YOUR note choice than MINE, if it is equally well thought out and based on experience.

Edited April 25, 2010 by david_boveri

[dwinterfield]

Perhaps it's more that NH has been coming to the US teaching 45-60 students a yr. for decades. He's probably taught more people in the US to play concertina than anyone else and maybe more than everyone else. When he comes to the US he's an event. In Ireland, I suspect he's just around and much more routinely accessible to students. I've been to camp and know and like the "system". I've also been to classes and workshops taught by former students. They'll pull the d far more often than NH. It's all okay.

[Frank Edgley]

[many of the Anglo players who have devoted themselves to Noel Hill's approach to playing Irish dance music are not themselves Irish, but seem to be mostly Americans who play Irish music. On the other hand, some of the Anglo players who have posted more critical comments about it seem to be Irish people living in Ireland]

 

i haven't seen it break down this way. the feel i've gotten is, the people you hear literalizing and carrying on about following the nh method to the enth degree and whether, gasp, it's "okay" to diverge from it, or whether, gasp, you're gonna get a spankie-wankie for playing this "d" instead of the nh "d," and asking permission to, gasp, do it differently, seem to tend to be non-irish learners and tend to be adult learners. i have not heard irish players, particularly those who start young, arguing for or against the nh method, or troubling themselves over these (non) issues, and one does get the cheery impression that this is for the simple reason that they could care less about these debates. they are too busy actually getting good at the instrument, and doing what works for them even when they get started via some method or other. most who learn at some point from nh also get input from a bunch of master concertina players through workshops, cce activities, or their local community maestros. they're not preoccupied with debates about methods. they're too busy playing up a storm....

 

I would tend to agree with most of what's said here. Many of the older "masters," when asked about how they learned and from whom, say something like this: I listened to the music all my life when I was young. At some point I just picked up the concertina and just picked out the tunes. I have heard several accomplished Irish players state this general line of events. As well, Asher Perkins, of Michigan, who plays on my website, learned the concertina much the same way and has developed his own fingering and embellishment system. A quote from John Williams goes like this: "If you get the music in your head, all you have to do is fish it out of the box." John is the only non-Irish born person ever to win the All Ireland on concertina. However, his father is a concertina player, and John spent many summers around Doolin learning the music. He doen't play anything like Packie Russell in terms of fingering or embellishment styles. Those things are not the most important. Expressing the lift & feel of the idiom are. These are not exclusive to one way of fingering etc. Listening is the one way to arrive---and it can take a while, especially if you have not been brought up in the same musical context as many Irish have.

[michael sam wild]

Wise words! It gets up my nose when you know are playing well and some concertina player tells you you are doing it wrong!

 

 

[michael sam wild]

Wise words indeed! It gets my goat when you and your mates are playing well and someone says 'you're playing it the wrong way'. It's like when they say you played the wrong notes there. I like the John Williams quote.

 

Having said all this I will learn from anyone and am constantly adapting my playing to get the tunes out as I feel them inside. That's why the concertina is the instrument of the musician.

Edited April 25, 2010 by michael sam wild

[david_boveri]

[many of the Anglo players who have devoted themselves to Noel Hill's approach to playing Irish dance music are not themselves Irish, but seem to be mostly Americans who play Irish music. On the other hand, some of the Anglo players who have posted more critical comments about it seem to be Irish people living in Ireland]

 

i haven't seen it break down this way. the feel i've gotten is, the people you hear literalizing and carrying on about following the nh method to the enth degree and whether, gasp, it's "okay" to diverge from it, or whether, gasp, you're gonna get a spankie-wankie for playing this "d" instead of the nh "d," and asking permission to, gasp, do it differently, seem to tend to be non-irish learners and tend to be adult learners. i have not heard irish players, particularly those who start young, arguing for or against the nh method, or troubling themselves over these (non) issues, and one does get the cheery impression that this is for the simple reason that they could care less about these debates. they are too busy actually getting good at the instrument, and doing what works for them even when they get started via some method or other. most who learn at some point from nh also get input from a bunch of master concertina players through workshops, cce activities, or their local community maestros. they're not preoccupied with debates about methods. they're too busy playing up a storm....

 

I would tend to agree with most of what's said here. Many of the older "masters," when asked about how they learned and from whom, say something like this: I listened to the music all my life when I was young. At some point I just picked up the concertina and just picked out the tunes. I have heard several accomplished Irish players state this general line of events. As well, Asher Perkins, of Michigan, who plays on my website, learned the concertina much the same way and has developed his own fingering and embellishment system. A quote from John Williams goes like this: "If you get the music in your head, all you have to do is fish it out of the box." John is the only non-Irish born person ever to win the All Ireland on concertina. However, his father is a concertina player, and John spent many summers around Doolin learning the music. He doen't play anything like Packie Russell in terms of fingering or embellishment styles. Those things are not the most important. Expressing the lift & feel of the idiom are. These are not exclusive to one way of fingering etc. Listening is the one way to arrive---and it can take a while, especially if you have not been brought up in the same musical context as many Irish have.

 

although i do not directly disagree with anything you say, i wonder: is there no value in starting where others have left off? i don't know why concertina players are not supposed to concern themselves with fingering. i can't imagine anyone telling a fiddle player or a piper or a flute player something similar.

 

i agree with you that listening is the key. however, i am reminded of what my uncle said once at a workshop he was teaching: "if you are at a session, and you are trying to learn by ear, use your eyes too!"

[ceemonster]

[many of the Anglo players who have devoted themselves to Noel Hill's approach to playing Irish dance music are not themselves Irish, but seem to be mostly Americans who play Irish music. On the other hand, some of the Anglo players who have posted more critical comments about it seem to be Irish people living in Ireland]

 

i haven't seen it break down this way. the feel i've gotten is, the people you hear literalizing and carrying on about following the nh method to the enth degree and whether, gasp, it's "okay" to diverge from it, or whether, gasp, you're gonna get a spankie-wankie for playing this "d" instead of the nh "d," and asking permission to, gasp, do it differently, seem to tend to be non-irish learners and tend to be adult learners. i have not heard irish players, particularly those who start young, arguing for or against the nh method, or troubling themselves over these (non) issues, and one does get the cheery impression that this is for the simple reason that they could care less about these debates. they are too busy actually getting good at the instrument, and doing what works for them even when they get started via some method or other. most who learn at some point from nh also get input from a bunch of master concertina players through workshops, cce activities, or their local community maestros. they're not preoccupied with debates about methods. they're too busy playing up a storm....

 

I would tend to agree with most of what's said here. Many of the older "masters," when asked about how they learned and from whom, say something like this: I listened to the music all my life when I was young. At some point I just picked up the concertina and just picked out the tunes. I have heard several accomplished Irish players state this general line of events. As well, Asher Perkins, of Michigan, who plays on my website, learned the concertina much the same way and has developed his own fingering and embellishment system. A quote from John Williams goes like this: "If you get the music in your head, all you have to do is fish it out of the box." John is the only non-Irish born person ever to win the All Ireland on concertina. However, his father is a concertina player, and John spent many summers around Doolin learning the music. He doen't play anything like Packie Russell in terms of fingering or embellishment styles. Those things are not the most important. Expressing the lift & feel of the idiom are. These are not exclusive to one way of fingering etc. Listening is the one way to arrive---and it can take a while, especially if you have not been brought up in the same musical context as many Irish have.

 

although i do not directly disagree with anything you say, i wonder: is there no value in starting where others have left off? i don't know why concertina players are not supposed to concern themselves with fingering. i can't imagine anyone telling a fiddle player or a piper or a flute player something similar.

 

i agree with you that listening is the key. however, i am reminded of what my uncle said once at a workshop he was teaching: "if you are at a session, and you are trying to learn by ear, use your eyes too!"

 

 

 

re being quoted as commenting about [kids who don't care about technique]. please try to read more carefully. nothing in my post says that irish kids don't care about technique. i said, they do not seem to be engaging in these debates or critiques about this or that method. and i said it in reply to the o.p., who asked for opinions as to whether folks agree or think the irish contingent are more critical of the nh method. and i'll say it again, they are too busy using their (formidable) technique, to engage in fussbudgety-wudgety critiques or debates about any concertina "method."

[Mikefule]

 

what other way would there be to play irish music than to learn it? i cannot likewise imagining committing to something without "buying in" to different sets of norms and rules. it is not foolish to choose a fingering for a note based on principle, if the principle is well thought out and based on experience. likewise, it is not foolish to have a different principle guiding YOUR note choice than MINE, if it is equally well thought out and based on experience.

 

This was in reply to my post.

 

My point was not that you shouldn't learn, or shouldn't think carefully about fingering.

 

My point is that some people get on with it, and others spend their time talking about it. There are good reasons for any well thought out fingering system. The least important of those reasons is that "so and so says it is correct." I play English style and I have had two teachers, one of whom is a professional, and the other is a very well respected amateur, and they have shown me different but equally well thought out solutions to "fingerng problems". Neither would tell me that "This is the right way because I say so," but they would say, "This is a better way because..."

[tombilly]

i don't know why concertina players are not supposed to concern themselves with fingering.

 

I think the general idea, David, is that you aim to play without thinking about the fingering - thinking about the fingering too much and intellectualising on it just gets in the way of making music. The tune is in your head and you 'fish around' as someone above put it, to get it out. As a learner gets more tunes and comes across more phrases and building blocks, it gets easier. Sure, now & then, you need to stop and think, 'that's an awkward way of playing that bit - is there an easier way?' 'Fingering systems' are probably unhelpful, except perhaps as guidance for novices?

 

Oops - I see I missed a few posts and am just repeating the same point more or less..

Edited April 26, 2010 by tombilly

[Dan Worrall]

Interesting discussion! I've just one thought to add, and that is that we are playing in a time that is much different than that of half a century ago, when the revival of Irish music started, and certainly different than that of a century and more ago, when the concertina was played much more simply.

 

The biggest difference in Irish music today from the world of early recorded players is its purpose. The oldest of the early recorded players came from a time when the instrument was used primarily for dance, in the pre-band era of house dances. Starting with the fleadhs in the 1950s, people started to compete with the instrument, being placed on a platform and asked to perform. Then the trad bands, of course, with recording contracts and all. This has caused a much greater emphasis for playing for listening than ever existed in the early part of the last century, at least among concertina players. Along with that came increased complexity, as players sought to snatch ways of ornamentation from other instruments and apply them to the concertina. Concurrently, our lives have grown ever more complex...zipping around in cars, eating fast food, texting and twittering (let alone emailing), listening to all sorts of rapid-fire modern music whilst supercharged on caffeine from Bewleys and Starbucks. It is no coincidence that the pace of Irish music has quickened considerably, as has the pace of things like set dancing. This mirrors the case in American traditional music, where old time music has been largely replaced by the often frantic pace of bluegrass, and the simple old dance music in my state of Texas has been replaced by the great complexity of modern competition-based Texas fiddling.

 

All this extra speed and complexity in approach has meant that players who wish to keep up with all that will appreciate and gain from some tuition. I agree with David that those who play in this manner will pay a lot of attention to the minutiae of technique and fingering, as they struggle to keep up with the increasing pace and complexity. They also pay attention to the turn of a phrase for its effect on the ear of the listener. I also agree with Frank that, certainly amongst the older players, there was very little need for such, and the concertina was simply a concertina. The great player Chris Droney, for example, played for dances for much of his life, and his approach to fingering, as he once told me, was that all the notes you really need are on the G row, unless you needed an extra sharp from somewhere else. His playing is not that simple, of course, but that is its basis.

 

One may see a parallel example with South African concertina players, whose own approaches to the concertina have over the decades become more and more complex--in chording and especially in fluid, chromatic fingering on 40 button instruments--to a state where they are today, where there has been a bit of a split, where some players have calved off and returned to much simpler ways with two row concertinas, and others in larger numbers continue to move into an ever more complex future.

 

I guess it all comes down to what you want out of the music...certainly both have an immense amount of appeal. If you see your music as a bit of a refuge from a hectic modern world, or if you are lucky enought to be able to play for dancers, you might wish to keep it simpler. If you see it as a challenging performance medium that grows in technique and approach with each new player, then you will wish to carefully study technique to keep up the pace. To each his own...each makes the world more interesting for us all.

[Anglo-Irishman]

I will learn from anyone and am constantly adapting my playing to get the tunes out as I feel them inside. That's why the concertina is the instrument of the musician.

 

I can certainly identify with this statement!

 

Music is very like language in many ways - especially traditional music. They're both part of a much wider culture that is specific to a region. And we don't really learn our mother tongue. We just absorb it, and it comes out when we want to say something. Rather crudely at first, but getting more polished as we listen more and speak more. Some people are better at language than others, and may become really eloquent, whereas others may just be able to say more or less what they mean. Same with music! Some become fascinating performers, whereas others just manage to play tunes.

 

What we do have to learn is a foreign language. Not only grammar and vocabulary, but also the "noises" needed to pronounce it, many of which are not used in our mother tongue. French and German teachers go to great lengths to get us English speakers to pronounce the French "u" or the German "ü" properly, telling us how to form our lips, where to put our tongue, etc. I don't know how all of you speak, but I'm pretty sure you make some "noises" that are hard for a foreigner - or even for someone from a different region of your country - to pronounce. But you make these noises quite naturally, without thinking of any "technique".

 

In your native language, the vocabulary and grammar are there insitnctively, and so is the technique for producing your home accent. You've learnt more about it from your peers (some of whom have been speaking it far longer than you have) than from your teacher. And you and your peers can and do develop the vocabulary and grammar - I'm over 60 now, and I've seen several such developments in both English and German.

With the foreign language, you have to learn the grammatical rules and the dictionary definitions of the words. And you get these from your teacher alone.

So, to get the feeling that you're speaking a foreign language "properly", you have to stick to the rules, and if in doubt, ask your teacher.

 

Same with the traditional musical idioms of a foreign country!

 

Another point about foreign languages: when you go to the country in question, you will notice that by no means all the natives use the pronuncuiation technique that your language teacher so painstakingly taught you. (I had a very good German teacher at school, and he prepared me for this. ) Once you notice this, and adapt accordingly, your speaking of the language becomes less one-dimensional. But this only comes with total immersion in the foreign language - or the foreign musical idiom.

 

And you don't "buy in" to your tradition - it's your birthright, and you have the right to help develop it. You don't have to accept codified rules if they don't help you to let out the music that is in you.

 

To put it simply: Irish concertinists have each other - American concertinists have Noel Hill!

 

Cheers,

John

[Azalin]

To put it simply: Irish concertinists have each other - American concertinists have Noel Hill!

 

I completely agree with this. As I've always said, it seems to me american students learning from Noel Hill seem to focus on technique much more than phrasing and how a tune should sound. I heard many such american students, and it's as if they try to get the technique, speed, flash ornaments way before they can actually master the tune itself. Many of those irish learners have spent their youth listening to lot of music, and when comes the time to play, their priority will be to play the tune the way they heard it, not what button is better in such or such situation. Because they have the phrasing and music hardcoded, the way to actually bring the music to life on the concertina is going to come to them much more naturally. They will figure out lot of things themselves.

 

That's why someone like Edel Fox, for example, won't use the exact same fingering as Noel Hill, even though she learnt a lot from him. Because she's got lot of music in her head, lot of different styles, and mixed them to create her own style... and to do this, she needs to use alternate buttons from any specific system. In my opinion, the only people following a strict set of rules are people who have not listened to enough music and simply focus on the only thing which is within grasp of mastering: technique.

Edited April 26, 2010 by Azalin

[michael sam wild]

So the well known comment that fr a kid 7 years listening, 7 years learning, 7 years playing seems to hold good.