"Noel Hill system" players

[David Levine]

Dan -- It's a bit late to be coming into this discussion, but here it is anyways. You certainly were opening a can of worms. Most kids playing in Clare today, at least those who I've come in contact with, have either taken some lessons from Noel Hill or from somebody who has learned from NH. They do not all sound like him, though most wish they did (or their parents wish they did). You can't really criticize Noel's approach. We have all been influenced by him, as well as by other great players, past and present. It's been said that when you're standing on the shoulders of a giant it's polite not to piss on his head.

 

Noel's approach isn't a canon or a set of laws. It's just one way of making a tricky instrument more accessible. Noel certainly never claimed he's a better player, or teacher, than Tim Collins or Chris Droney. Some of the Irish "players" that you've alluded to, who you say have made critical comments about NH's approach, no longer play the concertina and never got much past the beginning stages. I'm not throwing eggs, tomatoes and brickbats but I do take issue with everything you say except the part about opening the giant can of worms.

 

Of course the kids don't debate Noel's approach. Kids really don't do much debating. But they certainly do ask, "How do you do that?" or "Which B do you use in this tune...?" Adults do it too. Don't you do it when a session is relaxed and chatty? I don't know of any accomplished player who is dismissive of the need to think about technique. Sure, the point is to forget about the technique, but that's because technique has to be mastered sufficiently to become second nature. Otherwise you struggle with it. Kids come to the instrument with more of an open-minded, Zen approach than adults. They don't intellectualize about it quite as much but even Asher Perkins had to be shown some things about the instrument.

 

I am off to spend some quality time with Devaney's Goat. Mea culpa for carrying on so...

[Azalin]

I am off to spend some quality time with Devaney's Goat. Mea culpa for carrying on so...

 

How does an irish man find Devaney's Goat in tall grass? Satisfying! <Az turns around and starts running very quickly>

[michael sam wild]

David, have you had a dispensation for that relationship? I always thought the Ould Sod was the Emerald Isle.

 

 

Still Chaque un a son goat (unless it's a kid)

Edited April 29, 2010 by michael sam wild

[Dan Worrall]

Dan -- It's a bit late to be coming into this discussion, but here it is anyways. You certainly were opening a can of worms. Most kids playing in Clare today, at least those who I've come in contact with, have either taken some lessons from Noel Hill or from somebody who has learned from NH. They do not all sound like him, though most wish they did (or their parents wish they did). You can't really criticize Noel's approach. We have all been influenced by him, as well as by other great players, past and present. It's been said that when you're standing on the shoulders of a giant it's polite not to piss on his head.

 

Noel's approach isn't a canon or a set of laws. It's just one way of making a tricky instrument more accessible. Noel certainly never claimed he's a better player, or teacher, than Tim Collins or Chris Droney. Some of the Irish "players" that you've alluded to, who you say have made critical comments about NH's approach, no longer play the concertina and never got much past the beginning stages. I'm not throwing eggs, tomatoes and brickbats but I do take issue with everything you say except the part about opening the giant can of worms.

 

Of course the kids don't debate Noel's approach. Kids really don't do much debating. But they certainly do ask, "How do you do that?" or "Which B do you use in this tune...?" Adults do it too. Don't you do it when a session is relaxed and chatty? I don't know of any accomplished player who is dismissive of the need to think about technique. Sure, the point is to forget about the technique, but that's because technique has to be mastered sufficiently to become second nature. Otherwise you struggle with it. Kids come to the instrument with more of an open-minded, Zen approach than adults. They don't intellectualize about it quite as much but even Asher Perkins had to be shown some things about the instrument.

 

I am off to spend some quality time with Devaney's Goat. Mea culpa for carrying on so...

David,

 

You seem a bit defensive about Noel and his approach. I did not mention him in my post, nor did I say anything that could or should be construed as being critical about those who are pushing the envelope on the Anglo regarding technique and virtuosic proficiency in performance art. It's clearly monumental stuff, to state the obvious, and well worth working to learn, if one wishes to.

 

I also did not mention any older players making 'critical comments' about Noel's approach...I think you may have imagined this, or picked it up from some other post.

 

My post was only to underscore what others (especially Frank) had said---that studying technique per se is not the only way to mastering the Anglo. To think in that manner does not imply criticism, but only choice and preference. Many if not most of the older players simply used the concertina to play tunes, and over time they absorbed their surroundings (especially those involving dance) and became good and great players of a different sort. Most of the older players who I have known were mystified at questions of technique, and if approached would attempt only to teach a tune, not a method nor techniques per se. They tend or tended to play in a more simple manner, as befits the needs of dancing rather than concerts, competitions and sessions. I do not in any way think of them as "beginning" players, and know from my own personal experience that there is more to their simplicity than meets the casual eye. Most are gone today, but there are still quite a few around in Ireland who play in a simpler style. I celebrate them, too (as, I am pretty sure, so does Noel), and am very happy to live in a world where the concertina can be approached in more than one way. Diversity is good.

 

Cheers,

Dan

[Daniel Hersh]

Dan -- It's a bit late to be coming into this discussion, but here it is anyways. You certainly were opening a can of worms. Most kids playing in Clare today, at least those who I've come in contact with, have either taken some lessons from Noel Hill or from somebody who has learned from NH. They do not all sound like him, though most wish they did (or their parents wish they did). You can't really criticize Noel's approach. We have all been influenced by him, as well as by other great players, past and present. It's been said that when you're standing on the shoulders of a giant it's polite not to piss on his head.

 

Noel's approach isn't a canon or a set of laws. It's just one way of making a tricky instrument more accessible. Noel certainly never claimed he's a better player, or teacher, than Tim Collins or Chris Droney. Some of the Irish "players" that you've alluded to, who you say have made critical comments about NH's approach, no longer play the concertina and never got much past the beginning stages. I'm not throwing eggs, tomatoes and brickbats but I do take issue with everything you say except the part about opening the giant can of worms.

 

Of course the kids don't debate Noel's approach. Kids really don't do much debating. But they certainly do ask, "How do you do that?" or "Which B do you use in this tune...?" Adults do it too. Don't you do it when a session is relaxed and chatty? I don't know of any accomplished player who is dismissive of the need to think about technique. Sure, the point is to forget about the technique, but that's because technique has to be mastered sufficiently to become second nature. Otherwise you struggle with it. Kids come to the instrument with more of an open-minded, Zen approach than adults. They don't intellectualize about it quite as much but even Asher Perkins had to be shown some things about the instrument.

 

I am off to spend some quality time with Devaney's Goat. Mea culpa for carrying on so...

David,

 

You seem a bit defensive about Noel and his approach. I did not mention him in my post, nor did I say anything that could or should be construed as being critical about those who are pushing the envelope on the Anglo regarding technique and virtuosic proficiency in performance art. It's clearly monumental stuff, to state the obvious, and well worth working to learn, if one wishes to.

 

I also did not mention any older players making 'critical comments' about Noel's approach...I think you may have imagined this, or picked it up from some other post.

 

My post was only to underscore what others (especially Frank) had said---that studying technique per se is not the only way to mastering the Anglo. To think in that manner does not imply criticism, but only choice and preference. Many if not most of the older players simply used the concertina to play tunes, and over time they absorbed their surroundings (especially those involving dance) and became good and great players of a different sort. Most of the older players who I have known were mystified at questions of technique, and if approached would attempt only to teach a tune, not a method nor techniques per se. They tend or tended to play in a more simple manner, as befits the needs of dancing rather than concerts, competitions and sessions. I do not in any way think of them as "beginning" players, and know from my own personal experience that there is more to their simplicity than meets the casual eye. Most are gone today, but there are still quite a few around in Ireland who play in a simpler style. I celebrate them, too (as, I am pretty sure, so does Noel), and am very happy to live in a world where the concertina can be approached in more than one way. Diversity is good.

 

Cheers,

Dan

Dan--

 

I think that David was responding to my original post, where I did indeed say something like "critical" -- but I was trying to refer to criticism of those who have a disciple-like devotion to Noel's teachings, not to criticism of Noel's playing or fingering system as such.

 

another Dan[iel]

Edited April 30, 2010 by Daniel Hersh

[Ken_Coles]

Many if not most of the older players simply used the concertina to play tunes, and over time they absorbed their surroundings (especially those involving dance) and became good and great players of a different sort. Most of the older players who I have known were mystified at questions of technique, and if approached would attempt only to teach a tune, not a method nor techniques per se.

 

That is a pretty good description of my week-long class with Father Charlie Coen of New York about ten years ago. Someone in the class wanted to know which key to use for a some note in a tune (a D? an A? I don't remember). Fr. Charlie replied, "You use whatever one you find." That was new for me, but I adjusted to it, and learned a lot. As I have in courses from Noel Hill, Micheal O Raghallaigh, and Gearoid O hAllmhurain. Fr. Charlie would now be in his late seventies but I hear he still teaches sometimes; check him out if you ever get a chance. I hope to meet a few more teachers in coming years, and keep playing until my fingers fall off. Hmmm, that doesn't sound the way I meant it!

 

Ken

[michael sam wild]

Nice comment from Fr Coen. I have just been working for a few weeks on The Stoney Steps a hornpipe with some nice runs up and down and for different variations and rhythms I found myself choosing several buttons and directions for the same note depending on chords, ornaments, octaves etc.. Once the sequence gets fixed I seem to change it around quite happily as I'm learning new combinations all the time. There are few fixed points only E, F#, f#,F and c# on my 26 button Jeffries for the keys I mainly play in.