Anglo prices

[michael sam wild]

I started the discussion by commenting on the current price of old Anglos. Funny how it wanders off.

 

I think in all activities we have 'gear freaks' some who think it makes you better some who like to look cool, others who just love owning superb things. I know in climbing we used to get people who thought the top stuff would make them more proficient. One response by some purists was to go out soloing with bare feet and very few clothes and no protection. Maybe we could have 'conceptual concertina playing' as in the art world!

 

'Many a good tune played on an old fiddle' (or concertina) Ahh - but was it a beat up old German one or a £5,500 Jeffries?

 

 

In the melodeon world it is common to see many thousands of pounds worth of Costalottis playing basic morris tunes out in the rain, where in the past a Hohner Pokerwork was all it took..

Edited October 28, 2009 by michael sam wild

[JimLucas]

'Many a good tune played on an old fiddle' (or concertina) Ahh - but was it a beat up old German one or a £5,500 Jeffries?

Some of each, but yes... many a beat up old German one.

[Guest Peter Laban]

Bitterness. Envy. Greed. Jealousy. Avarice.

It isn't fair.

You have more than I have.

I want what you have.

You have more, therefore I have less.

J

 

Where do you spot these things? I haven't seen any of this being said or implied.

[Mikefule]

You have more, therefore I have less.

 

 

Where there is a finite supply, then one person having more usually means someone else has ether less, or less opportunity.

 

Supply and demand when there is a finite supply: if part of the supply is removed or withheld from the market place then the rest of the supply will be reduced, and prices will increase. This is how some international markets in major commodities are manipulated. Oil doesn't go up or down in price because the quantity of oil available to be pumped out of the ground fluctuates. It goes up and down as the producing and exporting countries decide how much to release onto the market that day.

 

With certain types of items - for example, concertinas, major works of art, vintage cars, etc. - the supply is limited. In the case of concertinas it is not strictly finite as new good quality ones are being made - albeit at a slow trickle.

 

A few years ago, concertinas were almost ignored, and you could pick them up fairly cheaply. Now they have gained in prestige, and prices have increased. Some of that is because more people are playing; some because more people are collecting; and some because some people both collect and play.

 

Good luck to all three categories. All three activities are in their own way legitimate. However, just as an art lover might be mildly irritated by someone who keeps a beautiful painting in a Swiss bank vault, a concertina player might be mildly irritated by the person who has a lovely box that he never plays but regards as a trophy or an investment. If I can't have that lovely box myself, fair enough, but I'd prefer to hear it played by a great musician rather than it sit on a shelf somewhere.

 

There is a comparison with house prices. Because some people can and will pay inflated prices, all house prices move up a bit. That makes it more difficult for first time buyers. First time buyers, and their parents, bemoan this, but people who already have houses think it's marvelous. There is even a mass panic when something we all need (accommodation) suddenly becomes cheaper (house prices fall).

 

The market is neither right nor wrong. It is just a phenomenon. It happens, like it or not. It is a perfectly reasonable subject for discussion with honestly held opinions on all sides, and without the need for it to become personal or antagonistic.

[Azalin]

Supply and demand when there is a finite supply: if part of the supply is removed or withheld from the market place then the rest of the supply will be reduced, and prices will increase. This is how some international markets in major commodities are manipulated. Oil doesn't go up or down in price because the quantity of oil available to be pumped out of the ground fluctuates. It goes up and down as the producing and exporting countries decide how much to release onto the market that day.

 

Hmmm, this is not what I've been seeing on the market. Demand, or perceived demand drives the price of oil. In time of recession, there is *much* less demand for oil, because factories close down, boats aren't used as much, planes... Exporting countries kept on reducing output for 1-2 years now but it was not enough to keep the price from going down... they did so to avoid further damage, but by itself did not control the price of oil at all.

 

Anyhow, the rest of this debate is purely philosophical. The "free market" as explained here is part of capitalism. Not all of us agree with all aspects of capitalism. In Quebec, we refuse to allow richer people get better health care, but if you go in the US, if you're rich, you're definitely going to get better care. We have a entertainment park that was bought by a US company (6 flag?) a few years ago, and they tried to make it so that if you paid extra, you get on a fast lane for their attractions. It created a storm here, it was basically unacceptable for us, the concept of bypassing poorer people when you have the money... Is is it good or bad? Depends on where you live, how you see life, what's your cultural background...

 

I personally would not like the idea of having a bunch of good instruments I barely play. It wouldn't feel right to me. It would feel overly materialistic, and I keep on trying not to get on that road. It's a personnal choice. No need for people to get upset because I see it that way.

[Daniel Hersh]

even nastier than this one.

What exactly is perceived as 'nasty' about the present discussion? There's a discussion of points of view with which anyone can agree or disagree as they please.

Some of the "fool" exchanges at the beginning weren't too pleasant -- but I agree that most of the posts have been ok this time around.

[Daniel Hersh]

However, just as an art lover might be mildly irritated by someone who keeps a beautiful painting in a Swiss bank vault, a concertina player might be mildly irritated by the person who has a lovely box that he never plays but regards as a trophy or an investment.

I share the doubts posted by some others as to whether there is much of this going on. I know a few people with more than one top-quality concertina, but they generally either play them all at least occasionally or made their more recent acquisitions as replacements for their earlier ones, which they're now trying to sell. There may be one or two who bought their instruments decades ago when prices were very low, hung onto them, and don't play all of them, but I don't personally find that troublesome, since their purchases didn't contribute to the price increases that happened much later.

 

I think that vintage Anglo prices seem high partly because vintage English and Duet prices are so much lower - but those English and Duet prices are much lower than the cost of building a comparable instrument today.

Edited October 28, 2009 by Daniel Hersh

[richard]

Hello

 

I think there are a lot more people wanting a concertina at present than there was 10 years ago, for example. Haven't there been legions of them learning from a young age taught by Noel Hill and many other teachers for the last 20 years at least? How many sign up for concertina at Willy week?

 

I think the conspiracy theory that there are so many despicable collectors hoarding concertinas out there is silly.

 

R

[Dave Weinstein]

First, there is not a vintage instrument in existence that I would swap my Dipper for. Full stop.

 

Second, if finances are an issue, this is one area where the waiting lists for modern instruments can help you.

 

Select the instrument you want, get on the list. With the estimate for how long it will take for your number to come up, you know how long you have to save. Put the money aside. When the instrument is ready, you should have the cash.

 

Oh, and third. When buying across continents from a reputable source, you don't generally get the chance to get a hands on first. For that matter, even if buying from an unknown source, you don't get the hands on, but I'd be a lot more leary.

 

And one last thought. If collectors keep the value of the instruments high enough that they are preserved for the next player, that is to our advantage. I'd much rather an instrument be kept under proper conditions by someone who values it (even if they don't play it) than that they end up being tossed out by an heir because they aren't worth much.

 

[Addendum: If whoever inherits my concertinas treats them badly, I will find a way to haunt them.]

[JimLucas]

You have more, therefore I have less.

Where there is a finite supply, then one person having more usually means someone else has ether less, or less opportunity.

All

supplies are finite, though some are more finite than others.

More to the point, if demand is greater than supply, then some of that demand won't be met.

 

...one person having more usually means someone else has ether less, or less opportunity.

If I have one concertina and someone else has none, then I have have more than they.

 

If I have 10 concertinas and someone else has 11, then I have

less

(fewer, anyway) than they.

None of which matters, in and of itself.

What matters is my value system, their value system, and how each system and each individual values and responds to the situation.

[yankeeclipper]

In Quebec, we refuse to allow richer people get better health care...

In June 2005, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled in Chaoulli v. Quebec (Attorney General) that Quebec's prohibition against private health insurance for medically necessary services laws violated the Quebec Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms, potentially opening the door to much more private sector participation in the health system.

 

Fortunately, the concertina market is not controlled by government mandates or courts, but simply responds to the natural economic pressures of supply and demand.

Edited October 28, 2009 by yankeeclipper

[Azalin]

In Quebec, we refuse to allow richer people get better health care...

In June 2005, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled in Chaoulli v. Quebec (Attorney General) that Quebec's prohibition against private health insurance for medically necessary services laws violated the Quebec Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms, potentially opening the door to much more private sector participation in the health system.

 

Fortunately, the concertina market is not controlled by government mandates or courts, but simply responds to the natural economic pressures of supply and demand.

 

I'm always amazed at how much people entrenched in capitalism see this "free market" as natural. What's natutal about it?

[Dirge]

I'm always amazed at how much people entrenched in capitalism see this "free market" as natural. What's natutal about it?

 

It's what happens if you leave people to their own devices. No politicians or social engineers are required (if that's the word!) to make it happen. Hence natural.

[Boney]

I'm always amazed at how much people entrenched in capitalism see this "free market" as natural. What's natutal about it?

It's what happens if you leave people to their own devices. No politicians or social engineers are required (if that's the word!) to make it happen. Hence natural.

If you leave people to their own devices, don't they sometimes investigate when things look suspicious, to make sure there's no monkey business? And try to come up with ways to keep unscrupulous folks from taking advantage of others? So isn't that natural too?

[m3838]

I'm always amazed at how much people entrenched in capitalism see this "free market" as natural. What's natutal about it?

There is no Natural Capitalism or Natural Communism. That's why State exist. To nurture and plan, to care and select. The State usually does it really well, we all know about it, right?

It's been quite a while since I listened to freshly posted audio file. A few weeks I guess. Too long for so many energetic players.

Let's stop this discussion for a moment and each post a tune.

I compare this Forum to another, Russian 7 string Guitar Forum. I must admit they are more music oriented. And the results...

- students

- masters

For those who didn't have enough, some more:

 

A nice catchy tune, artfully played on concertina, would make my day.

[Guest Peter Laban]

It's what happens if you leave people to their own devices. No politicians or social engineers are required (if that's the word!) to make it happen. Hence natural.

 

We're moving outside the remit of this forum pursuing this line of discussion but if you believe it's always correct and natural to achieve the highest possible price it will become self fulfilling.

 

I don't think it's the natural state of affairs. And let's leave it at that.

[Dirge]

It's what happens if you leave people to their own devices. No politicians or social engineers are required (if that's the word!) to make it happen. Hence natural.

 

We're moving outside the remit of this forum pursuing this line of discussion but if you believe it's always correct and natural to achieve the highest possible price it will become self fulfilling.

 

I don't think it's the natural state of affairs. And let's leave it at that.

 

Well fine except that's not what I said. Azalin doubted that free market buying and selling could be described as 'natural' and I explained why I thought it was a reasonable word to use. That's all. I don't think you can quote me, answer your own different question and expect the last word as well.

[Woody]

It's what happens if you leave people to their own devices. No politicians or social engineers are required (if that's the word!) to make it happen. Hence natural.

 

We're moving outside the remit of this forum pursuing this line of discussion but if you believe it's always correct and natural to achieve the highest possible price it will become self fulfilling.

 

I don't think it's the natural state of affairs. And let's leave it at that.

 

Well fine except that's not what I said. Azalin doubted that free market buying and selling could be described as 'natural' and I explained why I thought it was a reasonable word to use. That's all. I don't think you can quote me, answer your own different question and expect the last word as well.

I think some people consider "natural" to be a synonym for "desirable." Sometimes this is valid, for instance it's natural and desirable to breathe. Sometimes it's not valid, for instance it's "natural" for human beings to die of horrible diseases