d.elliott

I can't help you on the dating, but can you describe the 'double reed pan'? Dave

Jim Friends them? Dave

Jim I don't like saying this, but please take your ill temper out on some one else, or remember Paul S's global admonishment to not score points and generally pick fights. I am not interested in taking part in what I see as point scoring debates when we should be sharing information to help ourselves and others. I know coloured keys can appear on very good quality instruments, and understood that they could even be some form of 'optional extra'. I know that I have never seen lettered keys on Lachenals on other than entry level models, which usually have no felt bushing in those circumstances. I have also never seen the expression 'tutor' in any contemporanious documentation or text, however most of us know what most other people mean by the expression. The initial question was not about any of this, I just took the opportunity to introduce a different concept (grade) and look at the relevent and related issue to the query. The presence of any key bushings. In my post I was actually politely moving away from the 'tutor' concept, pointing out that if no felt bushing is present then to go away from bone keys may be not such a good idea. My resposnse was, I hope, informative and helpful. If John wants to gain a source of re-cycled keys then, in the UK, I can advise of one, perhaps two options. Dave Elliott

My view on broken keys is fairly simple, assuming the key is not recoverable, and I have shied away from repairing mising key guide pegs/ pins call 'em what you will. I like to keep the instruments as they were made, as standard. Odds are that the instument being a tutor (this word is provocative to some, shall we say an 'entry level model') the action box end cover will not have been bushed with felt. The bone buttons seem to work well against the wood, but metal keys usually seem to have been bushed. So I would want to replace 'like with like'. I would contact my local repairer, who will probably have dozen's of keys of different patterns that have been recovered from scrappers. They may whish you to send a sample as there are many variations, and not just in key diameters. Particularly on big instruments and raised ended instruments. Advise the make of the instument and any key end note letter marking. You will also need dampers (peg felt washers) as many per key as are fitted to the other keys in the particular end. Don't forget the need to re-bush the new key's crosshole likewise! Finall you may also need to make some small adjustments to key heights, using a lever arm bending tool and height gauge. Dave. PS thanks for the comments on the book! very much appreciated. D PPS I have an idea for making replacement pegs, but I don't know how it would stand up to service conditions D

Cheers Lester! Dave

Lester, you did not make the comment, nor do you have anything to appologise for. However the comment was made as part of the other thread that this thread took over from, I suppose it was that I am still reacting to. As I re-read your original comment, and my own posting I can see how anyone might assume that my paragraph was in response to you, it was not. and I am sorry now that it was misleading. I think I know how to follow your link, and I shall be very interested to see your system, I need any help available! Dave

Dave I don't understand the bit above where you say that yu can play by ear if the version is strictly as the dots dictae. Can you expain some more. It seems to me that playing by ear cannot be constrained by some unseen dots?? Simple, change the key, its sounds different. I don't know where to start, by the time I can determine the key might have been, its time for another pint Change the 'version' or just add some fancy bits, I get lost, thrown, give me the dots to refer to and I instantly know what the others are doing and I can skip over or fit around as necessary. With dots, I can follow multi-part band arrangements, can count umpty bar rests, can even come in on the off beat after the rests (usually). I always feel that I know where I am. I can learn a tune off dots one evening, play it at tempo, eyes closed, and next day I cannot even hum it, show me the dots and I can sing it or play it straight off, close my eyes and play it again. Does that help you understand why some people 'need' dots, and that statements like: 'music sheets have no place...' are very hurtful and add to frustration. Dave

I find that playing from ear is something that I can do as long as there is no pressure, that the version is strictly as the dots dictated, and that the speed is moderate, in short, not in public. Put the dots infront of me, and I don't really read them, I barely scan them and I can play at all but mad fiddle speed, and no amount of extemporisation worries me. I have considered confidence, tune familiarity, the attitude of others to those like me. Perhaps its a result of learing an instrument, any instrument, for the first time at the age of 45. Pehaps its just the way it is. Those who, like my teenage kids, can listen to a tune through twice and start instinctively playing in, with, or around the others are more fortunate than they realise. Dave

The bottom line is that many people cannot play without dots, for some its a case of: can't do it, so won't do it, won't do is so can't do it. but with the dots as as reference, or prop, they can keep up and make a good solid contribution to a session. I feel that those who have the ear to play along in open music, un-aided, are fortunate, perhaps more fortunate than they realise, and I for one bitterly regret the attitude that "there is no place for written music in a session" (of any form). I strongly feel that this music should be inclusive, otherwise we risk discouraging leaners of both the music and the instrument. Some people have enough mastering the instruments without having to spend time 'sitting out' in the hope someone will play a tune they may know at a pace they can keep up with. Where as dots can provide a bit of confidence and enable people to dip in and out of a tune as they gain proficiency and tempo. Dave

It is interesting to note that when this thread started, comments were made that indicated that those people who do not play by ear cannot/ should not be active in session play. Apparently dot players do not listen accross the room. Personally I have never been much of an ear player, and most of our local sessions are dominated by a combination of frenetic fiddle players and melodian defined playing keys. Surely there is room for those who need the dots to participate. In Sheffield, The Red House has a weekly session, run initially through the South Riding Folk Network, that does not object to those who use dots to help them along, and they have been known to stray into the odd key with a flat, or two. Good for English system players! All we need now is to keep the frenetic fiddlers under control, or at least to get them to finish at the same speed as starting................ Dave

Richard, I have reconstructed and resurected many a set of bellows, but making a jig has always put me off constructing a set from scratch. I urge you to take up Ken's offer, I would love to learn your technique. I have been playing around with an idea for a 'one shot' disposable former. This may render the idea obsolete! Dave

careful about mentioning 'holding', 'straps' this post might get hijacked into a debate on ergonomics! PS all my tankards have handles and not thumbstraps, but fingers have been known to slide Dave

Goran, two points: English miniatures do not have any form of handle, and as to the more the merrier, I did say within reason, trusting to the good sense of the bellows manufacturer/ repairer not to over do it. Dave

Rich, What's a pinky? I thought it was one of two piglets, the other being Perky! Seriously, do people call finger slides, err, 'pinky rests'???? Dave

Bob, thanks for the explanation of the terms, and yes I see that the outer an inner hinges are operated wll within their normal degrees of freedom. Rich, I agree that the main limiting factor is the gussets, because they in turn are influenced by the angular difference in operating plane of the adjacent run of panels. I think we are straying off track, the initial question was all about the number of folds needed for a good anglo playing style/ to maximise the versitility of the instrument. I am not an Anglican, however I thing the general rule of thumb stands: The more folds, the easier to play runs of notes, or in the case of anglos, runs of certain combinations of notes, particularly if you intend to play CHORDS. If playing as a single voice' instrument, then the problem is diminished. As a matter of principle, if fitting new bellows for what ever reason, then I fit a minimum of six folds. As long as the new bellows are of good constuction, so they don't sag, then within reason its a case of the more folds the merrier. My miniature (2.75 ins A/F) has eight folds. Dave

The nomenclature I used in my maintenance book was by and large arrived at from Steve Dickinson in discussions over quite a long time. I do find these variations in terms confusing, I know pads as 'pads', the leather discs on top of the pads as: 'mounts', the leather bit that the tip of the arm goes through and attaching to the pad 'mount', either as 'beads' or 'grommets' (nothing to do with wallace). Why grommet I don't know, it seems an entirely wrong werd. 'Keys' are also known as 'buttons', and even 'pins', or 'studs'??? So I defined my terms and used pictures, as I was taught on entering industry as a baby engineer, a very long time ago! Dave

Bob, I don't understand your statements about 'passive range of motion', and 'functional range of motion' and what characteristic is measured in degrees? Sorry to be a bit dim Dave

Chris, not trying to be uncooperative, or detracting but what does: "Wikis are a true hypertext medium, with non-linear navigational structures. Each page typically contains a large number of links to other pages; hierarchical navigation pages often exist in larger wikis, but do not have to be used. Links are created using a specific syntax, the so-called "link pattern"." mean in the venacular? At the moment it all seems very, er complicated and off putting. Dave

No comment. Actually, what name did you use to try to register with? Chris Just my ordinary name: Elliott having no guidance to what a jabberwiky name is, nor having heard of this type of forum(?) before to day Incidentally I still don't have an idea what one needs to do to register, nor am I sure what we will get out of it, that's why I wanted to have a look Dave

Chris, Tried to register, but the site won't talk to me, says that I am an inverlid, sorry invalid?? Gave up Dave

Rich, Following the maxim of 'Better Safe than Sorry' and bowing to your greater experience of new reeds, and also given that your advice is easy to follow, being no real imposition on anyone other than a rampant Morris musician playing in a gale force wind beside a major airport, I accept the point as made. After all sod the theory, its what works that counts Dave

Hi Rich, I think we are on the wrong forum here, but: Breaking in reeds: Grain flow would normaly be along the reed length, unless they are sheared off a wider coil. Originally, I believe, clock spring steel was used. I have talked aobout vibration stress relieve before, I think that this process actually shakes the reed into a natural position making adjustments to the at rest position and yeilding improved gap and sounding, but proving it is a different issue. I cannot see how a reed springing in an air stream can get beyond its elastic limit. I can see fatigue failure and micro-cracking issues in old reeds, abused reeds (ground, badly filed etc.) and corroded reeds. Brass both work hardens and to some extent 'age' hardens. Whilst what you advise can do no harm, I cannot see a convincing technical argument. After all we are talking about metallurical condition and grain structure, generally these need plastic deformation, or heat to change them. High frequency vibration permits minute inter-chrystaline slipage to reduce stress. Bellows & storage As to belows construction and breaking in, I simply draw on advice from Steve Dickinson, and my own experience, even old bellows, if left uncompressed for either a long period of time take an 'at rest' position which is slightly open. It is advisable to store with the bellows closed to prevent this, again I emphasis even old concertinas with original bellows. I don't believe you can particularly time-date this sort of thing. New bellows do have this memory effect. As you say, influenced by construction details, materials, I suppose even adhesive used. I have some new on my daughter's instrument, stored closed they are fine, left out of the box, even now they are several month old, they relax. Yet these are first class, supple and smooth moving bellows. To be safe I stand by my earlier advice, store your bellows closed. Dave

QUOTE ...the concertina I have where somebody put black paint over the amboyna woodwork. you just spoiled my breakfast! Fear not. First of all, it's a metal-ended duet, and so it's only the veneer on the framing bits and the handles. Secondly, the paint didn't soak in (I noticed the amboyna where the paint was worn), and I'm going to have it properly restored. Now enjoy your breakfast. Jim: Can't, 'She who must be obeyed' has me on a volume control programme, nothing to do with weight you understand. Its just my clothes seem to have shrunk a little around the middle. Dave

Thanks Jim, you just spoiled my breakfast! Dave

Sharron please do not fret! The bellows do need to be stored compressed, not super-tightly, but firmly together otherwise they tend to want to spring open, this means that in play you get resistance when playing towards the closed position, in effect you get some 'loss of function'. It may only be minor but its there. I would suggest that you consider that "storage" = overnight, or away at weekends etc. The case is designed to hold the bellows with an appropriate degree of compression, the case is almost part of the instrument. The prolonged use of the alternative loose and soft 'gig bags' can have the same problem, always return to the case. I have seen people use modern replacement hard cases, vanity boxes etc, that's fine as long as they are adapted to hold the bellows correctly. I know its a Morse that you have, and so new. This means that the initial bellows 'training' is important. Eventually getting the instrument in and out of the case will become easier. hold the instument compressed as you ease it in or out of its box. Also, periodically, give the bellows a good stretch. You will notice the case also locates the concertina with its axis horizontal, this is also good practise; paricularly on the so called 'vintage' instruments, as the valves can suffer if its stored on its end. I know its inconvenient, but its for the best in the long run, sorry. Dave