wes williams

Jim Lucas: No, I'm sorry I misinterpreted what you said! malcolm clapp: My suggestion was based on the variations of abbreviations used throughout the ledgers compared to the instrument types they appeared with, rather than actual observations, so could easily be wrong! But errors in the ledgers compared to real instruments have already been found. The next answer may suggest one reason why. malcolm clapp: A 'logical' look at the ledgers suggests that the date is always entered after the entry, so a batch of instruments of the same type with contiguous serial numbers sometimes have dates different by a year or more (Example: SD1 p180 29480-5). Geoff Crabb mentions a similar thing - when making a certain part, with the time spent setting up a machine, it was worth making a few, and saving the extra parts for the future. Wheatstones 'factory' approach could have worked on a larger scale, perhaps nearing full instrument level. So I'd suggest that perhaps the ledger entries are made in multiple stages - the numbers first (as a new page is required), the instrument types next (when the 'management' have decided how many of each batch they want to build, or an order arrives that sets off a requirement), and the dates finally (when it went out the door?). 'By whom?' in respect of the earlier ledgers is an interesting point. The first ledger starts off with often variable notation, and seems somewhat naive in places. Later it becomes confident and standardised. Was it originally a 'personal notebook' of someone learning the trade? I can suggest one co-incidence. K.V. Chidley (Kenneth Vernon, not Key Valve ), eldest son of one of the proprietors, started at Wheatstone in 1906 aged 14. His brother Gifford was 4 years younger. The first ledger starts in 1910. Both brothers are listed as Company Directors about 1950.

Jim, Are you truly that pendantically PC and over-sensitive? Really!! This was written to explain things as simply as possible. If you don't agree with my suggestion, its not a problem - but "belittling" attacks smack of something I hoped we'd lost. And what do you hope to acheive by such an outburst of anger (your choice of "smilie")? I'm not sure what the 'S' means - but I'm pretty sure S.V. represents the 'air slide valve' or whatever politically correct term you choose to call it. I've held this view since shortly after reading the ledgers and discussing it with a few others. I have found no reason to change it, whilst you, in contrast, have changed opinion already in this thread -and now you are making me behave in a similarly stupid manner!!

The 1932 Receipt and Memo are both signed H.Dean, and going later, I can't find any 'Deans' or Wood Green entries in the 1958 ICA Directory. As we don't see any evidence of two generations of Deans, perhaps he took over an existing business? Dating a concertina in 1944 might imply that he was too old for conscription at that time.

"S.V. L Side". I'd suggest that S.V. may be Side or Slide Valve, an English system version of the Anglo air button. These, like the anglo, were normally fitted on the right hand, so in this case, fitting to the opposite side to usual has been noted. There isn't any key in the ledgers, including the earlier ones not yet on site. I believe there is the possibility that a site will established in the future which will attempt to organise help on things connected with the ledgers like this.

I've just looked at the item Stephen found listed on the ICA site - its actually three items, a headed memo giving an estimate for work, a headed receipt, and a 'trade printed' envelope. The dates are in February 1932, and the letter and memo carry the 'Established 60 years' tag line, so we are looking at establishment around 1870. But the receipt does not carry any tag line, and was apparently printed for the previous decade, as it has a preprinted '192..' year field, and an N22 address code, although the style of the 22 suggests it could possibly have been a later overprint. Under my nose all the time! Sorry!

I've edited the 'pretty picture' in line with what I think Stuart means, and also moved the top right hand buttons to the 'correct' position - Further comments Stuart?

Thanks, Stuart. I've thought about it for a while, and its raised lots of points, so sorry this is a bit long. As suggested by your initial description, its a variant of the adjacent semitones system used for the 'Double'. Its surprising that no earlier instruments of this system seem to exist, even as a prototype, since its a fairly logical variation, but perhaps someone may have seen this scheme described somewhere. Very few 'Doubles' were ever made, which may point to the general scheme of adjacent semitones not being found to be very playable. The 'Double' is a bit like the English, and has thumb loops, but no little finger rests, presumably to encourage the player to use a different finger for each column (using 'keyboard diagram' row/column conventions). But I don't think we can imply from this that your instrument was intended for a six fingered Scot. As Ivan pointed out, scales and chords follow a few repeatable schemes, and at first glance, your system seems to be easier in this respect than the Double, so again, why no earlier instrument? Does this suggest that we quantify things differently to players of the Victorian age? Your comment on awkward stretches is interesting, as the same thing would also seem to apply to a Maccann system (also six columns), especially in any of the key signatures with two or more sharps, as F# and C# are located in the outer columns. Does the missing top G on the right hand side suggest that perhaps your system was intended to be played more in A,E, and B major? Its interesting that the ledger describes this as a 'piano' system, as I think most of us have assumed this was something nearer the JEDcertina, or the piano system Brian Hayden described. More research is needed on the piano system listings in the ledgers, and if any could possibly be like yours. I think it unlikely that Wheatstone would have supplied something as unusual as this without a specific requirement, so its languishing for years at the back of the shop seems even more mysterious! Another possible variation on this system would be three column/four row per octave, so perhaps we may eventually come across one of these too. I've produced a 'pretty picture' of your keyboard. If you have any comments to make it more realistic, I'll edit this post to change the picture. I suspect your phrase 'straight lines offset' may mean that I need to offset alternate rows. And any chance you could let us know what the overlap between sides is? Thanks again! Edited in bold above, and picture changed 20 March 2004

Hi Felix, A very difficult question! One thing that seems obvious is that you should keep to the layout that you are already familiar with, and then decide what you want on the extra buttons. Otherwise you will have problems each time you change between your instruments. If you are playing an accompaniment, it might be worth considering something similar to my 38 key Jeffries, which has extra lower notes on the right hand side. This makes it easier to play the melody on the right when it needs lower notes, while the left hand can keep playing the accompaniment and not have to fill in these lower notes. But maybe, if you need to play in many different keys, a Bb/F or Ab/Eb instrument might be useful? best wishes ..wes

If newer readers here are slightly puzzled by the term PICA, you can find out more on the PICA page.

Uncommon? More seriously, it sounds intriguing. Is there a description of it on the web, or would I have to ask Hugh directly for a copy? Oh my! Perhaps even BH! The ICA got it already, two such papers, and in a more recent format by the Bloke himself - go to the Members Public Files Area ... and if you forget this link in future its also on the News page as 'Lucky Dip Files Area'

Pat Robson provided this photo as part of an article he wrote a few years ago, which was unfortunately too large for the ICA Newsletter. Anybody seen it before?

In the 1851 PO London Directory, Oxford St: 512 Taylor Stephen C. pianofrt. & musicwa (ie warehouse) This is at one end of Oxford Street, beyond Dean St., Charles St (leading to Soho Square) and Tottenham Court Road. The numbers go up to 550 on this side at this date. In 1865 I can't find Taylor in this area, neither is he listed in the Commercial Directory, and going the other way he isn't listed in the 1839 Pigot & Co Directory. So datewise you seem to have a choice of all the ex-Wheatstone startups.

To follow on from Jim's reply, if you take a peep at the Buy and Sell forum, under the 'Uhlig' thread, you'll find a picture of one of these early German instruments there. The Germans had invented the button accordion before Wheatstone invented the concertina, but as Jim says, its debatable who actually got to a concertina like format first. Wheatstone definitely had the six sided version, while the German instruments were four sided - and some German instruments only had five buttons on each side. The 'Anglo-German' or 'Anglo' was a German system instrument built in the English way, usually with extra buttons added to allow additional keys to be played in. There was obviously an exchange of ideas going on - the Germans started producing six sided versions of their four sided instruments, and Wheatstone made the Duette, a four sided Duet system with a German style construction. So to be precise - the English was before the Anglo. But there are other things that may need consideration to give you a proper answer!

So you search for a case for years and years, and finally find the answer literally on your own doorstep - funny old world

Sorry! Most Klingons look the same to me!! I can only recognise Bill Bailey (UK only comprehendable?) Only the rum and bum are autobiographical. The concertina is fictional.

No - Stuart said "as the scale rises (at right angles to the length of the fingers) left to right in semitone leaps" - you shouldn't be using vertical or horizontal without definition, to avoid confusing everybody So "different from any of the other arrangements" except the double, and why I said "like a 'Double' duet system" - if you ignore slopes. The other system layouts are based on a distributed 8 note scale pattern, the double is an integrated chromatic 12 note scale pattern. Stuart's may just be a 2 column/6 row per octave variant of the 3 column/4 row per octave system used on the Double. I only mailed to point out something I thought seemed similar. Why try to argue over it until he actually tells us?

I found an Australian paperback novel 'Concertinas' by Trevor Shearston, about Australia and the independance movement in Papua New Guinea. The hero(?) plays anglo, and folk music too. I've also got a translation of the works of the Swedish poet Gustav Frohling, titled 'Guitar and Concertina', which is also the title of one of his poems - although how accurate the title translation is we perhaps needn't pursue. John Wild's original subject quoted Dickens, but the book was one of his late writings, so I 'word searched' a few earlier novels at Project Gutenberg without sucess, although I did find a reference to a Jews Harp. On the subject of Sci-Fi, someone posted a link to a photo of 'Lt. Worf', the Klingon Security Chief from Star Trek, playing an anglo, so obviously they do have uses beyond Planet Earth.

Stuart, It could be like a 'Double' duet system, so have a peep at the layout in the C.net Hayden article in case it saves you effort. Nice to see you here! best wishes ..wes

Paul, I'm still hunting for more info, but here is a quick summary from various sources that I usually give out on ICA queries: Alexander Prince was not his real name. He was born in Aberdeen, Scotland, and his real name was Alexander Sutherland. As an early concertina recording artiste, Alexander Prince stands supreme not only for the excellence of his music but also for the extraordinary number of discs he made. His first recordings were on cylinders but in 1912 he signed up exclusively with ''Columbia'' and, from then on, his titles appeared on the flat discs as we know them today. His renderings of Tannhauser Overture and Poet and Peasant were proof of both his musical abilities and the adaptability of the Concertina. He said that he was an '' infant prodigy,'' since, when he was eight years old he broke his leg, and was forced to stay in bed. His father, who owned a music shop, gave him a Concertina to amuse himself with and two years later we find Alexander Prince performing at the Glasgow Exhibition!! It was not long before he was heard at the London Pavilion, Crystal Palace and other halls and, in 1904 he set off on a South African tour. His instruments were 51 and 71 key Duets [Maccann system]. On the latter he was able to obtain some really beautiful organ effects since it had a greater bass range than that usually made. Proof positive of Prince's musical genius is the fact that he never wrote any of his arrangements down but simply took them straight from an Orchestral score and memorised them. In later years he was more associated with Nottingham, England rather than Scotland. His brother also played concertina and taught there. best wishes ..wes

I don't know if Stephen has researched the Nickolds addresses, but for the benefit of other readers, here is a rough guide: 1856 THOS. NICKOLDS; CONC MAKER; 7, LOWER BRUNSWICK TCE. 1856 FRED’K CHAS. NICKOLDS;CONC MAKER GOULDEN TCE. 1856,9 NICKOLDS BROS, CONC. MAKER; 5, WOODBRIDGE ST 1861,2,4 NICKOLDS, FRED’K CHAS, 5, WOODBRIDGE ST 1865,6,8 Nickolds Fredk. Chas. 143 Holloway rd N 1870,2,4 FRED’K NICKOLDS, 44 NORLAND RD, NOTTING HILL 1876 FRED’K NICKOLDS 44 NORLAND RD + 161 CLARENDON RD 1878 FRED’K NICKOLDS 161 CLARENDON RD 1880,2,5,6 FRED’K NICKOLDS + SON, 203, NEW NORTH RD 1888 Nickolds & Son, 156 Kingsland road E I haven't found anything later, but if anybody comes across Nickolds Bros c.1920 in Enfield, Middlesex this is a later generation who ran a music shop. I've also come across a Nickolds anglo with a stamping on the hand rest with the words on the label in this query, plus N&S and a symbol, very much in the same style as Lachenal. best wishes ..wes

>Wes Williams' concertina dating page is here. No, my summary of what information was available to me at the time (2000/2001) is there. Its now vastly out of date. Anybody else wish to rewrite it? I don't really wish to, because of the amount of misquoting and assumptions that are attributed to me through it, as Jim's post demonstrates.

The ICA have just released some of their earlier Newsletters over 35 years old at the website. I hope you'll find something of interest in them. They are on the ICA Archive page, and I'm intending to add a new one every month, where I have it, to regularly keep you all 35 years behind the times! So the most recent is January 1969, and I'll refresh on this thread when I add a new one. But, of course, if you want to be only ten years behind, you'll have to join...

If we are including non-traditional music, Alexander Prince, real name Sutherland, probably the most well known Duet player who recorded numerous cylinders and 78rpm records from 1900 onwards, came from Aberdeen. In more recent times, Alf Edwards, perhaps the best known player in the 1940s/50s/60s, was also a Scot.

One player you don't seem to have come across is Stuart Eydmann, see here. You should find most of the answers to your questions if you manage to get a chat with him, or get hold of a copy of his thesis. And no, I don't have a copy yet!

I think you'll find the patent at www.maccann-duet.com.