Smallest Reeds...

[John Sylte]

Hello Everyone,

 

I have been tuning a set of C/G reeds from a 20 button Lachenal into D/A. I have done this before with good results, but over the last couple days I have encountered some bad luck. I have fouled up the smallest reeds, from the G row, right hand side, buttons 4 and 5 pull and push (the notes many refer to as the "squeekers")... I have discovered that these little suckers can be stubborn about changing pitch, and then, if I'm not careful, they just give up and stop working altogether. I then turned to another complete box (which I was quite reluctant to do) to "borrow" these same reeds, and wouldn't you know it, I screwed them up too. After that, I tried fitting new tongues to the small frames, using tongues from larger reeds and filing them down.... But they seemed to require a LOT of air to sound them, and they never quite sat right in the frame. I'm not sure what to do next. I need a couple sets of replacements for these squeekers. I contacted David Leese, and he may (or may not) be able to help me, but he is on holiday at the moment, and I am anxious to find a solution to this. Short of buying a wreck box on Ebay for donor reeds, do any of you have any other ideas? Have any of you had this problem before?

 

What I need is:

 

Anglo 20 button C/G, right hand side, G row, 4th button, Push = G (x3)

Anglo 20 button C/G, right hand side, G row, 4th button, Pull = E (x2)

Anglo 20 button C/G, right hand side, G row, 5th button, Pull = F# (x4)

Anglo 20 button D/A, right hand side, A row, 5th button, Pull = G# (x3)

Anglo 20 button D/A, right hand side, A row, 4th button, Push = A (x4)

 

Thanks in advance for your ideas and help!

[Greg Jowaisas]

John,

My experience in tuning small reeds has brought about the following procedures:

 

Use 400 or 600 grit sandpaper glued to a tongue depressor rather than a file for control in removing material.

 

Clean the reed often while removing material. I use a 'shim in the can" piece of .001 stainless steel

which is like glorified tin foil but incredibly strong. I pass the foil several times between the frame and the tongue and also loop the foil on both sides of the reed tongue and run it up and down between the tongue and frame to clear burrs and any slag while tuning.

 

I have found through painful experience that without doing this procedure the reed may "hang up" and not vibrate properly. It stays the same pitch as you remove more material and then abrubtly a sudden pitch change occurs when the frame clears, and it may not be the pitch you were aiming at!

 

Although you seem to have had success raising reeds an entire pitch by filing I wonder if switching slots, that is keeping the reeds in original pitch and switching positions + adding (buying) a few extra necessary notes might not be another way to do a D/A conversion. It might require a bit of cabinetry to a few slots but you will probably end up with a strong sounding instrument.

 

Good luck,

 

Greg

Edited December 18, 2007 by Greg Jowaisas

[John Sylte]

Thank you Greg for your response.

 

I have switched reeds in slots whenever possible, and I have a collection of odds and end reeds for such purposes, so my first priority is to minimize the amount of retuning I am doing for any one instrument. However, these teeny tiny reeds are hard to come by, and they are absent in my collection of odds and ends... So I had no choice but to try tuning them. Well, I guess I did have a choice, to not tune them at all, and buy replacements. Then I would be left with the unadulterated originals... That would have been smarter. But I was anxious to finish the job, and well, that's how it is being me sometimes. Now I have a collection of small reed frames without tongues! I wish I knew what to use for tongues to salvage these frames I've got...

 

I have been using the same file on the small reeds as I use on the large reeds, going about it ever-so-gently and cautiously, checking the pitch every two or three strokes... it's a file I use for tuning harmonicas too, so it's not too large. But I like your idea about the sandpaper and tongue depressor. What you describe about them "hanging up" is exactly what I've been experiencing. They go nowhere in pitch, and then all of a sudden, they are WAY too sharp. Then when I try to bring the pitch back down, the reed gives up on me. It just gets too thin... I also use a gapper, or what I have been told is called a "feeler gauge" to reinforce the reed while filing. Is that what you are suggesting with the glorified tin foil? I'm not sure I understand what you were describing there... It's a relief to know others struggle with this too! I had about pulled all my hair out last night when finally I realized I needed to have a glass of wine and put the project to rest for the night...

 

Thanks-

[Robin Harrison]

Ever tried these "stick sanders" ?

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=20187&cat=1,42500,42523&ap=1

They come in two grits and work very,very well for re-tuning reeds.

Robin

[stella24]

Old clock springs have been used with good results, in fact, a highly regarded maker used these in his instruments. I use a feeler gauge under and frequently hold the frame up to strong light to check for burs. you can buy spring steel shims in different thickness on line also.

maybe your hair will grow back..

[Theo]

I find that another essential tool for this type of work is a good quality 10X hand lens, or a jewellers loupe. Close examination of the reed will often reveal the tiniest of objects that are fouling the reed tongue, or show how the reed tongue is misaligned in the slot.

 

Even better is a low power stereo microscope.

[Greg Jowaisas]

I use the thin stainless (.001) as a cleaning tool. By sliding it between the frame and tongue it "brushes" away sludge or single particles. It can also be looped around the reed to tug it to center (When a shim isn't working). I use thicker stainless (.005) as a platform to sand or file the reed.

 

A light box, one that you might lay slides or art upon, is a good device for viewing reeds and determining their centering.

 

I should give concertina maker, Wally Carroll, credit for showing me or telling me about many of the above tips and materials.

 

Those little squeekers are quick to anger. A delicate touch and lots of patience are necessary to "coax" them into tune.

 

Greg

[Dana Johnson]

I have been using the same file on the small reeds as I use on the large reeds, going about it ever-so-gently and cautiously, checking the pitch every two or three strokes... it's a file I use for tuning harmonicas too, so it's not too large. But I like your idea about the sandpaper and tongue depressor. What you describe about them "hanging up" is exactly what I've been experiencing. They go nowhere in pitch, and then all of a sudden, they are WAY too sharp. Then when I try to bring the pitch back down, the reed gives up on me. It just gets too thin... I also use a gapper, or what I have been told is called a "feeler gauge" to reinforce the reed while filing. Is that what you are suggesting with the glorified tin foil? I'm not sure I understand what you were describing there... It's a relief to know others struggle with this too! I had about pulled all my hair out last night when finally I realized I needed to have a glass of wine and put the project to rest for the night...

 

Thanks-

Theo's remarks about the hand lens (order from www.scientificsonline.com ) should be your first step. especially at the smaller sizes, trying to judge by eye how the light is passing the reed can be terribly misleading unless your eye is exactly perpendicular to the reed. From the sound of it, you may be doing a couple things wrong to generate your results. The shorter the reed the less material you need to remove to change pitch, so if you go for a number of strokes of your file (I vastly prefer abrasives for tuning the small reeds ) with no results, one of two things is happening, either your file isn't cutting, or you are removing metal from the neutral zone which doesn't affect the pitch of the reed only it's stiffness. When the pitch all of a sudden jumps way too high, either you just took off a good swipe from the reed tip (already very thin ) and took off a lot more than the dust required, or more likely from the sounds of it, you got a chip or burr lodged very near the root of the reed and it effectively shortened the vibrating length of the reed. You can see this with the hand lens easily ( I do all my reed work under a microscope now )

To raise the pitch of a small reed a lot,( a semi tone or more ) if there is enough extra length to the reed, I will take a few thousandths in length off the tip of the reed and slide the reed forward in the slot until it has the proper ( nearly no gap )gap again at the tip. This increases the stiffness of the reed and raises the pitch quite a bit without thinning the often very thin reed tip. Then I carefully thin the first 1/4 to 1/3 of the reed near the root with abrasive or file depending on how much metal needs to go to lower the pitch. This preserves the profile of the reed pretty well and avoids getting a paper thin tip which doesn't bend evenly and is easy to damage. When thinning to raise pitch ( like if you over shoot the lowering process ) You need to restrict yourself to the 1/6th of the reed closest to the tip especially on small thin reeds, the neutral point is more forward ( depends on the profile ) and filing farther back gets progressively less results and weakens the reed.

If you are having to re-make your reeds, the smallest ones have fairly thick roots and taper to the tip. They need to be flexible enough though so will have a curved profile that nearly levels out around the neutral zone. A good reed will sound slightly when you blow gently on it ( like you'd blow on a hot spoonful of soup ). A straight slope can give you a reed of the right pitch but it will be much too stiff. If you aren't aware already( not entirely clear from your comments and results ) thinning near the tip raises pitch and thinning near the root lowers it. Tip thinning lowers mass at the point of greatest motion allowing the tip to move faster, while root thinning reduces thickness at the point of greatest bending stress, reducing the spring power needed to maintain the reed's velocity. Along the length of the reed there is an area where the weakening produced by thinning is balanced by the weight reduction and nothing happens. This is the area where you control the reed's overall stiffness. A reed that is thicker here will be stiffer, more powerful and less responsive. A reed that is thin here will be sensitive and weaker sounding. The neutral point is usually forward of the center of the reed a little, but changes depending on the reed profile at the time. It is important when filing a reed's profile to keep it bending in a smooth curve, so you always have to blend your thinning forward and back of the area you are focusing on.

Side clearances on a reed should be around 1 to 1.5 thousandths of an inch per side. You can do less, but run more risk of the reed hitting if slightly misaligned 2 thousandths will noticeably slow the reed's response,and more than that will pretty much spoil it. you still have to get the right set for your reeds which for a good reed at that pitch range will be almost no set at all ( height above the frame the tip of the reed sits ) I'd file the feeler gage you are using to a shallow taper coming almost to a knife edge at the tip so you can avoid having the reed bending over the corner of it when you are doing your filing. If the reed is curved when you are filing, the curve will affect the profile you are trying to cut and the file will focus more cutting on the part bending over the tip of the feeler gage.

Dana

[meltzer]

This may be slightly off-topic, but I'd be intrigued to know why the OP wants to tune a C/G up to a D/A in the first place. (Other than for the joy of having a rare D/A 'tina, like).

[John Sylte]

Thanks Dana, that is a wealth of information. I think much of what I have been experienceing has come from filing away the reed at the "neutral zone". In most cases, I have simply weakened the reeds when trying to raise the pitch. I have tried to avoid making the tip paper thin, because it will just fold right over, making the reed useless. In avoiding this, I have assumed I could file to approximately the reed's halfway point to raise the pitch, yet this has not been the case. It makes sense to me now why that might not work, when the center of the reeds mass does not correlate with the center of the reed's length... I hadn't considered the profile of the reed. Sticking to the outer 1/6th makes sense. Your suggestion to reduce the paper thin tip, then push the entire reed tongue forward a little makes good sense too. I will try those things. I have also noticed it is easy to make a reed too thin at the base, where it will fold just as easily if you're not careful. I get the feeling that getting good experience with these small reeds will help me with the larger reeds as well.

 

"Along the length of the reed there is an area where the weakening produced by thinning is balanced by the weight reduction and nothing happens. This is the area where you control the reed's overall stiffness. A reed that is thicker here will be stiffer, more powerful and less responsive. A reed that is thin here will be sensitive and weaker sounding."

 

Thank you for this... great stuff!

 

This may be slightly off-topic, but I'd be intrigued to know why the OP wants to tune a C/G up to a D/A in the first place. (Other than for the joy of having a rare D/A 'tina, like).

 

I am making this D/A for a friend as a special order, but I already have one of my own that I converted a while back, and I love it. I can play the D major and A major scales on my 30 button C/G, but I have to think really hard about it, the scales are not intuitive to me at all. I'm getting better with D, but A puts me in knots. I'm originally a fiddler, which of course plays in any key, without having to think too hard about it. Then I learned how to play diatonic harmonicas and got very comfortable with that layout, which is exactly the same as a concertina when playing "in the rows". That in, out, in, out, in, out, out, in pattern feels very intuitive to me, with all of the 1s, 3s, and 5s produced on the push and the 2s, 4s, 6s, and 7s, produced on the pull. I have found it very rewarding to have a simple 20 button D/A available for some D Major, A major, B Minor, and some E major tunes. I know some may consider this cheating, or some breach of tradition, but it works great for me...

 

Thank you all for your help.

[Dana Johnson]

I am making this D/A for a friend as a special order, but I already have one of my own that I converted a while back, and I love it. I can play the D major and A major scales on my 30 button C/G, but I have to think really hard about it, the scales are not intuitive to me at all. I'm getting better with D, but A puts me in knots. I'm originally a fiddler, which of course plays in any key, without having to think too hard about it. Then I learned how to play diatonic harmonicas and got very comfortable with that layout, which is exactly the same as a concertina when playing "in the rows". That in, out, in, out, in, out, out, in pattern feels very intuitive to me, with all of the 1s, 3s, and 5s produced on the push and the 2s, 4s, 6s, and 7s, produced on the pull. I have found it very rewarding to have a simple 20 button D/A available for some D Major, A major, B Minor, and some E major tunes. I know some may consider this cheating, or some breach of tradition, but it works great for me...

 

Thank you all for your help.

If I had a C/G already, a D/A would be one of my next choices, not for the keys, but for the brighter character of the instrument. I am completely comfortable in D and almost as comfortable in A on a C/G 30 button, mostly requiring some practice for it to feel natural ( transposing your G tunes all into A is a good way to practice it.) but to have the same bright sound with more room to move on the keyboard is a great thing. I often play alone and choose my keys as much for how I feel at the moment as for the "standard" key a tune is played in, then it is fun to see what new possibilities come up in the different fingering. the D/A 20 button sounds like a good project. Good luck with the reeds.

Dana

[d.elliott]

Hello Everyone,

 

I have been tuning a set of C/G reeds from a 20 button Lachenal into D/A. I have done this before with good results, but over the last couple days I have encountered some bad luck. I have fouled up the smallest reeds, from the G row, right hand side, buttons 4 and 5 pull and push (the notes many refer to as the "squeekers")... I have discovered that these little suckers can be stubborn about changing pitch, and then, if I'm not careful, they just give up and stop working altogether. I then turned to another complete box (which I was quite reluctant to do) to "borrow" these same reeds, and wouldn't you know it, I screwed them up too. After that, I tried fitting new tongues to the small frames, using tongues from larger reeds and filing them down.... But they seemed to require a LOT of air to sound them, and they never quite sat right in the frame. I'm not sure what to do next. I need a couple sets of replacements for these squeekers. I contacted David Leese, and he may (or may not) be able to help me, but he is on holiday at the moment, and I am anxious to find a solution to this. Short of buying a wreck box on Ebay for donor reeds, do any of you have any other ideas? Have any of you had this problem before?

 

What I need is:

 

Anglo 20 button C/G, right hand side, G row, 4th button, Push = G (x3)

Anglo 20 button C/G, right hand side, G row, 4th button, Pull = E (x2)

Anglo 20 button C/G, right hand side, G row, 5th button, Pull = F# (x4)

Anglo 20 button D/A, right hand side, A row, 5th button, Pull = G# (x3)

Anglo 20 button D/A, right hand side, A row, 4th button, Push = A (x4)

 

Thanks in advance for your ideas and help!

 

Back to the original question!

 

Have you got replacement reeds yet?

 

The breathy nature of the new reeds can only come from four sources: the steel is too hard, the clearances around the reed are too great, the thicknes of the reed overall is too much making the reed too strong, the under tip set is incorrect.

 

I assume that you have got the set and the side clearance right, so this is what I do.

 

Measure the thickness of the stock on the orginal reeds where clamped and get a feeler gauge of the same thickness, then look under the the original reed to assess the degree of temper, Blue or straw colour? Feeler gauge mechanical properties are close enough to reed steel for our purposes.

 

Over a gas flame carefully temper back your feeler gauge to the correct colour and quench in water. This makes sure that the steel is of a 'right' strength and not too springy

 

Cut your reed tongue strip out of this. Look at the original reeds again, and measure the thicnesses in say four places along the reed tongue's length, I use a vernier caliper; and then shape the strip thickness at one end, to suit. Leaving it about 10% strong.

 

Taper the new reed to fit the frame & clamp and set it, make sure it sounds, and side clearance etc are correct.

 

Clip off the strip excess with a pair of side cutters to give a useable reed assembly

 

Start tuning! If the reed is breathy or not responsive enough at pitch, take it flat by 1/2 or 1/4 of a tone & re-tune, you may need to do this several times, its a matter of experience. You are progressively weakening the reed from too strong to strong enough! You could try this on your reeds you have already made yourself.

 

Hope that this helps

 

Dave

[John Sylte]

Thank you everyone, this has been a very worthwhile challenge!

 

I contacted the Button Box and they were able to send me replacements at a reasonable price. But by the time they came in the mail, I had already solved my own problem with help from Dana's post. The information he shared about the profile of the reed and the trade off between strength and responsiveness made it all click. I decided to try again at fitting a new tongue from another reed. IT WORKED! The only problem was that I had to cannibalize the tongue from a larger reed to fix the smaller reed. So, on my second attempt (actually 5th or 6th), instead of robbing Peter to pay Paul, I looked to other metal sources. I heard that clock springs work, but I couldn't find any of those in my digital clocks Instead I have an old burned up chainsaw that has a similar spring for the pull start recoil mechanism, and I tried using that on another reed frame, and that worked too. The profile was way too thick, but at the same time it occurred to me that a chainsaw file, which is quite a bit more abrasive than my harmonica tuning file, would remove metal much quicker, so I used that and it saved me quite a bit of elbow grease. The only problem is that the chainsaw file is round and not flat, so I had to be very careful with my filing technique to not create any weak spots. It hadn't occured to me to use a feeler gauge. I thought of using a harmonica reed tongue, which I have plenty of, but then I was concerned it may not be robust enough, because they are brass and they eventually all go flat... In any case, I have fixed a couple of these myself now, and I'm feeling quite confident that my work will only improve as time goes on.

 

David, thank you for your detailed response here, as well as all the help you have compiled in your book. My copy is well worn! My original failures were due to a combination of problems. My side clearance was too great, my tip clearance was too great, my tongue profile was still too thick in the middle, and the reed tongue sat too high above the top of the frame. So basically, way too much air could pass through the reed before setting off the note. I could make it sound with my mouth, but the bellows could not duplicate this pressure. I am curious about your suggestion to use a flame to weaken the metal. I am intimidated to say the least. Until I try it myself though, I guess I have no reason to believe I couldn't make this work. It just seems a little too much like Alchemy!

 

Up until now, I haven't concerned myself with the amount of time it took me to fit a new tongue. I was just looking forward to success of any kind. But I am now curious if there are any special techniques that make it easier to size the new reed tongue shape so that it fits snugly inside the frame with minimal side and tip tolerance. My technique involved a lot of trial and error, and my finished product, though it works, is not exactly perfect. The gaps between the sides of my reed tongue and the reed frame varies along the tongue's length. Because I didn't want to remove too much material, I would only file away a little at a time before comparing the tongue with the frame, and this took me forever. Do any of you have any tricks, or are there special tools I need to purchase or make?

 

Again, thank you all for your help!

[Theo]

The only problem is that the chainsaw file is round and not flat, so I had to be very careful with my filing technique to not create any weak spots.

 

Do any of you have any tricks, or are there special tools I need to purchase or make?

 

A triangular saw file as used for sharpening circular saws and hand saws is a good tool for removing a lot of metal.

 

I am curious about your suggestion to use a flame to weaken the metal.

 

This would only be necessary if the metal was too hard to file, which might be the case with a feeler gauge. Spring steel will most probably not need any further heat treatment.

[d.elliott]

John,

 

''I am curious about your suggestion to use a flame to weaken the metal. I am intimidated to say the least.''

 

Feeler gauges are too hard, too springy and not easy too file. In Carbon steels there is a trade off, at one end of the scale you have :hard, strong and not very ductile. at the other end you have: soft, ductile and not so strong. You get 'Hard' by making the steel white hot and then rapid quenching, this effectively locks up the steel's christal structure. You can then ease the hardness back to a more useable state by heating gently to allow the steel christals to relax. this is called tempering. You can judge the degree of tempering by the colour of the oxide on a polished section of the hard steel, light straw, straw, all the way to a deep blue (sofest but not softened).

 

Just remember you cannot do this to a single reed, or a thin strip of steel, not without specialist kit. it will simply pull too much heat too quickly and be ruined. However, you can work a feeler gauge blade over a domestic gas cooker. Don't forget to have a cup of water to quench into, ready and prepared before you turn on the gas! From attaining quench colour to quenching should be as instantaneous as posible.

 

I am sure that the metalurgists amongst you will be in full cringe mode now, but it is Christmas!

 

Dave

[Theo]

Just remember you cannot do this to a single reed, or a thin strip of steel, not without specialist kit.

 

A domestic oven can reach the temperature required for tempering. I have successfully heat treated home made cutting tools by heating to cherry red then quenching, followed by tempering in the oven to a dark straw shade.

[tony]

May I offer this suggestion for heat-treating small pieces of metal, such as feeler gauges?

 

Clamp the end of the feeler gauge between two small blocks of steel, an old pair of ‘Mole’ grips should suffice, and heat the blocks of steel to ‘cherry red’ and allow the heat to transfer to the feeler gauge, this will give you more time between reaching the required temperature and quenching. Once quenched gradually re-heat the blocks to the required pastel colour frequently wiping the feeler gauge with some fine sandpaper on a stick so that you can see the colour change as it takes place.

[d.elliott]

Just remember you cannot do this to a single reed, or a thin strip of steel, not without specialist kit.

 

A domestic oven can reach the temperature required for tempering. I have successfully heat treated home made cutting tools by heating to cherry red then quenching, followed by tempering in the oven to a dark straw shade.

 

 

I had not thought of the oven, but I like to monitor temper colour visually

 

Dave