Out Of Tune Reeds On New Instrument

[lmc]

A while back I posted a problem I was having with an 18b Stagi I had just gotten...The E left hand side buzzed on the pull. Since the instrument was new and under warranty I sent to vendor who fixed the problem...except...It now has several reeds that are out of tune. I began to play the instrument when it was sent back, playing a couple of tunes and doing scales and noticed that some of the notes sounded different on the push or on the pull, and a couple were really off in both directions. Using one of those digital electronic gizmos, I discovered that with the exception of 5 buttons most were off a wee bit in either one direction or both...Now, obviously the notes that sound off to my amateur ear are not acceptable but how about the other notes that are say 5 cents off, or fine in one direction and not the other? Do I send it back again to the vendor to have it tuned? Do I give up and send to someone else?

 

I read the previous post where the guy had a similar problem with a reed sounding different on the push/pull and fixed it on his own but since I am a newbie to the instrument and it is under warranty (albeit the repeated UPS charges back and forth ) I don't dare fiddle with it.

 

Thanks for input,

lmc

[mike averill]

I received a new concertina recently, expensive 38 key D/G , "proper concetina reeds" jeffries copy, serious money. Within one hour of receiving it I had a stick button on one side and a buzzzy read on the other. I visited the maker a couple of days later and was presented with a file and a piece of feeler gauge and told"you'll need these" ..."I'll show you what to do"...

 

If thats the service you get for big money then good look with your Stagi. One week and two more stuck buttons and another buzzy reed later Im rapidly begining to think that a mid priced box with reliable antonelli accordian reeds is probably the best alternative to a true vintage jeffries.

[Pete Dunk]

I received a new concertina recently, expensive 38 key D/G , "proper concetina reeds" jeffries copy, serious money. Within one hour of receiving it I had a stick button on one side and a buzzzy read on the other. I visited the maker a couple of days later and was presented with a file and a piece of feeler gauge and told"you'll need these" ..."I'll show you what to do"...

 

If thats the service you get for big money then good look with your Stagi. One week and two more stuck buttons and another buzzy reed later Im rapidly begining to think that a mid priced box with reliable antonelli accordian reeds is probably the best alternative to a true vintage jeffries.

 

It must be name and shame time! I don't think you could be sued for saying ' I bought a *insert name* concertina but I can't really recommend them and don't consider this to be a good value for money instrument.' It is after all just a personal opinion.

[lmc]

I received a new concertina recently, expensive 38 key D/G , "proper concetina reeds" jeffries copy, serious money. Within one hour of receiving it I had a stick button on one side and a buzzzy read on the other. I visited the maker a couple of days later and was presented with a file and a piece of feeler gauge and told"you'll need these" ..."I'll show you what to do"...

 

If thats the service you get for big money then good look with your Stagi. One week and two more stuck buttons and another buzzy reed later Im rapidly begining to think that a mid priced box with reliable antonelli accordian reeds is probably the best alternative to a true vintage jeffries.

 

It must be name and shame time! I don't think you could be sued for saying ' I bought a *insert name* concertina but I can't really recommend them and don't consider this to be a good value for money instrument.' It is after all just a personal opinion.

 

Wow! And I thought I was in a bad spot...but at least my vendor fixed the buzzy reed. But what about those sharp/flat notes that shouldn't be?

 

lmc

[Ken_Coles]

We do hear stories like yours. If your instrument is from a concertina specialist (Button Box, Hobgoblin, etc.) then they generally give satisfaction (and I know for example that BBox tunes them _before_ selling them). These retailers cost a bit more but that's why. If it is someplace that mostly sells guitars, they may have no idea how to tune a concertina anyway. It takes experience to get closer than 5 cents, but the reeds farther off than that should be fixed. Good luck, keep squeaking, ah squeezing.

 

Ken

[Richard Morse]

Wow! And I thought I was in a bad spot...but at least my vendor fixed the buzzy reed. But what about those sharp/flat notes that shouldn't be?

Actually, inexpensive concertinas are *made* with out-of-tune reeds. They *should* be that way in order for the factory to be able to sell them so cheaply. We at the Button Box can't imagine selling such poorly "made" instruments so we take it upon ourselves to tune, set reeds, fix action, chase down leaks, etc. until we deem it worthy of selling and satisfactory playing. It takes our well-trained staff an AVERAGE of 3 hours to "adjust" each Stagi concertina (different averages for other brands) to our satisfaction. And then we sell them with our guaranty (we don't send stuff back to Stagi).

 

Certainly the factory could do a better job but then they'd be more expensive and they have plenty of orders selling their wares as they are now - as there has been no competition. At least until recently.... Kudos to Wim Wakker!

 

You're not in a "bad" spot - just a typical one. If the place you got it from is unable/unwilling to better your box, the Button Box can make the adjustments/repairs (contact our shop for estimates and wait-list time).

 

-- Rich --

[d.elliott]

A while back I posted a problem I was having with an 18b Stagi I had just gotten...The E left hand side buzzed on the pull. Since the instrument was new and under warranty I sent to vendor who fixed the problem...except...It now has several reeds that are out of tune. I began to play the instrument when it was sent back, playing a couple of tunes and doing scales and noticed that some of the notes sounded different on the push or on the pull, and a couple were really off in both directions. Using one of those digital electronic gizmos, I discovered that with the exception of 5 buttons most were off a wee bit in either one direction or both...Now, obviously the notes that sound off to my amateur ear are not acceptable but how about the other notes that are say 5 cents off, or fine in one direction and not the other? Do I send it back again to the vendor to have it tuned? Do I give up and send to someone else?

 

I read the previous post where the guy had a similar problem with a reed sounding different on the push/pull and fixed it on his own but since I am a newbie to the instrument and it is under warranty (albeit the repeated UPS charges back and forth ) I don't dare fiddle with it.

 

Thanks for input,

lmc

 

 

Imc,

 

I previous threads there has been discussion about the tolerance in tuning concertina reeds, just what the human ear can detect and what is reasonably do-able with a file, ear and meter. In the English treble effective range most repairers agreed that plus or minus 2 or 2 1/2 cents from nominal is the most we can allow ourselves. Obvioulsy you pay for 'grade' which includes precision of tuning. Having said that, what you have is not fit for purpose, and should be returned to supplier.

Don't fiddle about with it, you might allect your warranty rights.

 

Dave

[lmc]

Wow! And I thought I was in a bad spot...but at least my vendor fixed the buzzy reed. But what about those sharp/flat notes that shouldn't be?

Actually, inexpensive concertinas are *made* with out-of-tune reeds. They *should* be that way in order for the factory to be able to sell them so cheaply. We at the Button Box can't imagine selling such poorly "made" instruments so we take it upon ourselves to tune, set reeds, fix action, chase down leaks, etc. until we deem it worthy of selling and satisfactory playing. It takes our well-trained staff an AVERAGE of 3 hours to "adjust" each Stagi concertina (different averages for other brands) to our satisfaction. And then we sell them with our guaranty (we don't send stuff back to Stagi).

 

Certainly the factory could do a better job but then they'd be more expensive and they have plenty of orders selling their wares as they are now - as there has been no competition. At least until recently.... Kudos to Wim Wakker!

 

You're not in a "bad" spot - just a typical one. If the place you got it from is unable/unwilling to better your box, the Button Box can make the adjustments/repairs (contact our shop for estimates and wait-list time).

 

-- Rich --

 

Thanks Rich - I may just look into that and have it done with...I've already sent it back once for buzzing reed (they fixed it and that note sounds fine) but the other off notes are annoying.

 

lmc

[Dirge]

Surely you shouldn't need to file reeds in a "bought from new" quality instrument? Who is this bloke?

[mike averill]

Surely you shouldn't need to file reeds in a "bought from new" quality instrument? Who is this bloke?

At this stage I'm not saying; Im hoping the business can be concluded amicably with the maker over the next few weeks. Once resolved I will be posting a more detailed , and hopefully more favorable, review of the instrument.

[Frank Edgley]

Plus or minus 2 to 2 1/2 cents does not seem to be a good standard to start out with. If one "G", for example is 2 1/2 cents flat (-) and the other is 2 1/2 cents sharp (+), then when thes two notes are played in unison you have a 5 cent difference. Added to the fact that the occasional note on instruments with brand new reeds, may drift a little bit (maybe 1/2 to 1 cent) after being tuned, may add to the situation. The goal should be (for high and mid-priced instruments) + or - 1/2 cents. I would think that repairers should aim a bit higher than 2 to 2 1/2 cents, but I agree with Rich that when the lower grade instruments are made they are trying to keep costs down, and production high by not really tuning the instruments they make. Tuning is not only a very time-consuming, labour-intensive task, it is a skilled one. Not everyone working in a concertina making facility can do a good job. You never see in newspaper want ads "concertina tuner needed---must be diligent, skillful, and be able to spend long hours with a file, in front of a tuner." It takes me 6 to 8 hours (sometimes more) to do a good job with tuning and reed response adjustments---far longer than any other single task in making concertinas. So far, I have not trusted anyone else to do the job.

[d.elliott]

Plus or minus 2 to 2 1/2 cents does not seem to be a good standard to start out with. If one "G", for example is 2 1/2 cents flat (-) and the other is 2 1/2 cents sharp (+), then when thes two notes are played in unison you have a 5 cent difference. Added to the fact that the occasional note on instruments with brand new reeds, may drift a little bit (maybe 1/2 to 1 cent) after being tuned, may add to the situation. The goal should be (for high and mid-priced instruments) + or - 1/2 cents. I would think that repairers should aim a bit higher than 2 to 2 1/2 cents, but I agree with Rich that when the lower grade instruments are made they are trying to keep costs down, and production high by not really tuning the instruments they make. Tuning is not only a very time-consuming, labour-intensive task, it is a skilled one. Not everyone working in a concertina making facility can do a good job. You never see in newspaper want ads "concertina tuner needed---must be diligent, skillful, and be able to spend long hours with a file, in front of a tuner." It takes me 6 to 8 hours (sometimes more) to do a good job with tuning and reed response adjustments---far longer than any other single task in making concertinas. So far, I have not trusted anyone else to do the job.

 

 

You are right Frank,

 

I think that the detectable by ear variation between two notes was crucial to the debate,

 

I traced the paper referred to and an extract is:

 

'The smallest frequency increment Δf that can just be detected as a change in pitch is proportional to the frequency. In fact, experiment shows that Δf/f = 0.003 over the mid-frequency range where pitch is well determined. Now, 1 + Δf/f = (f + Δf)/f, so the interval is I = k log(1.003). In cents, this is 5.2 cents, or about 20% of a semitone.'

 

Hence, I think. that people were looking at appropriate tolerances. and +/- 2 to 2 1/2 cents was the MOST we could allow ourselves. I think that a total tolerance range of around 3 cents, centered around nominal was generally considered achievable, and this was the common view taken, I should have made myself clearer.

 

Dave E

[JimLucas]

A while back I posted a problem I was having with an 18b Stagi I had just gotten...The E left hand side buzzed on the pull. Since the instrument was new and under warranty I sent to vendor who fixed the problem...except...It now has several reeds that are out of tune.

Are you sure they sent you back the same instrument? If those reeds didn't sound out of tune before you sent it back, I would suspect that they just sent you a different instrument of the same model, with no buzzing reed, but with its own problems. If that is what they did, how many iterations will it take for you to get one with no problems? More than the number of instruments they have in stock?

[lmc]

A while back I posted a problem I was having with an 18b Stagi I had just gotten...The E left hand side buzzed on the pull. Since the instrument was new and under warranty I sent to vendor who fixed the problem...except...It now has several reeds that are out of tune.

Are you sure they sent you back the same instrument? If those reeds didn't sound out of tune before you sent it back, I would suspect that they just sent you a different instrument of the same model, with no buzzing reed, but with its own problems. If that is what they did, how many iterations will it take for you to get one with no problems? More than the number of instruments they have in stock?

 

I guess we'll see...I've sent it back with a detailed letter.

 

lmc

[JimLucas]

I previous threads there has been discussion about the tolerance in tuning concertina reeds, just what the human ear can detect and what is reasonably do-able with a file, ear and meter. In the English treble effective range most repairers agreed that plus or minus 2 or 2 1/2 cents from nominal is the most we can allow ourselves.

And different human ears have different tolerances of what they can detect. I was once told by a violinist at an English country dance (American definition) to stop playing because I was not in tune with her and the piano. They were supposedly at A440, and my Æola was beautifully, consistently tuned to A441.

[Richard Morse]

I traced the paper referred to and an extract is:

 

'The smallest frequency increment Δf that can just be detected as a change in pitch is... 5.2 cents, or about 20% of a semitone.

I find this to be confusing. By definition a semitone is split up into 100 cents. So how does 5.2 cents become 20% of a semitone?

 

Even if we consider 5% to be the "threshold", I suspect that that may be true as a single tone but when played simultaneously with another note it can be excruciating... worst with same pitch notes, bad with octaves, then whole seconds, fifths, etc... and can be really bad if the direction of the variation is at odds with the temperament.

 

-- Rich --

[Steve_freereeder]

I traced the paper referred to and an extract is:

 

'The smallest frequency increment Δf that can just be detected as a change in pitch is... 5.2 cents, or about 20% of a semitone.

I find this to be confusing. By definition a semitone is split up into 100 cents. So how does 5.2 cents become 20% of a semitone?

I guess what was meant was a 20th of a semitone.

[Greg Jowaisas]

I was examining the tuning of a vintage instrument and found it to be consitent with 442=A on my portable chromatic tuner. Back in the shop the 442 translated into 8 cents sharp of standard.

 

So 441 might put you 4 cents sharp to the violinist, Jim. Depending on her intonation (and independent fingering "temperment") the diffence could have been greater. Which, no doubt began to grate on her sensitive ears. I wonder if it ever "occured" to her to sharpen her own instrument a bit? (Or did she just hand you a file?

 

Concertinas can be tough instruments to tune. Bellows pressure has to be averaged. Setting a reed higher or lower in the shoe can make make a difference of as much as 3 cents. When I tune a concertina I go through the process at least three separate times and often a fourth. I can hear when notes are 2 or 3 cents off but often it takes the electronic tuner to help me make the correct decision of which note and how much to change it.

 

Greg