Yet Another Anglo Redesign Thread

[Jody Kruskal]

I just got my new Morse C/G and it is very nice. I asked the good Button Box folks to try one innovation in the pitch/button layout and I’m thrilled by the result so far.

 

One 30 button Anglo pitch has long been missed in the left hand and I have spent considerable time over the years in working out arrangements and musical cover ups to compensate for it’s lack. That note is the low D. One whole step up from from the lowest note on the instrument.

 

All you Anglo players out there who play mostly trad style Irish have probably never missed that note, but I’m a harmonic player... melody on the right and harmony on the left. That missing low D has felt to me like a defect of the system since I first started playing, 30 years ago.

 

But where to put it? Pull is the most useful direction for that D and short of adding another button I thought of having that low pull D replace the C# pull, second button of the "accidental" or far left hand row. That makes the button play A/D.

 

It works great and having the button play the interval of a 5th is very handy. The fingerings seem natural. I almost never want to play the C# that’s now missing because I rarely play melody down there and a C# bass note is not too useful in the keys I do play. It’s a 7 in the key of D, a 3 in the key of A, a 4+ in G etc. The new low D note sounds good in almost every tune I play.

 

For those who play UK, American, French, German, Swedish, South African, Australian etc. (did I miss anyone?) fiddle and dance tunes in the harmonic style, I highly suggest that you consider this option on your new orders. I bet a reed change is not too hard to do as a retrofit and I’m considering changing my Jefferies instruments to include this highly useful note.

[Dana Johnson]

But where to put it? Pull is the most useful direction for that D and short of adding another button I thought of having that low pull D replace the C# pull, second button of the "accidental" or far left hand row. That makes the button play A/D.

 

It works great and having the button play the interval of a 5th is very handy. The fingerings seem natural. I almost never want to play the C# that’s now missing because I rarely play melody down there and a C# bass note is not too useful in the keys I do play. It’s a 7 in the key of D, a 3 in the key of A, a 4+ in G etc. The new low D note sounds good in almost every tune I play.

 

I've been missing the low D myself, but do use the C# very frequently ( mostly in hornpipes ) I opted for switching my low F, which because of the style I play I don't use much, and can get along without. If I played more in Bb and F and maybe C I'd have been more reluctant to let it go. I still have one open slot in my reed pan though and hope someday I can figure out a good way to use that and add one extra button on the low end past the E/F, but then what would I put with it?

I do love the low D now, and won't be likely to trade it back for my low F any time soon. It is nice to be able to tinker these things yourself though!

[Ken_Coles]

Dana let me try this instrument recently, and I found his modification by accident, when a Morris-type tune I play sounded funny. No F natural! I'd love to have a low D. Many have thought of this before; ask Doug C. at the Button Box how many folks have asked about it over the years. So I would probably need an extra button on the left for that low D.

 

By the way, Jody's talk of an A/C# button sounds like a reference to a typical 38-Jeffries layout, something he uses, yes? Most of us have the 30-key A/Bb and C#/D#, none of which I would readily give up as I'm finally using them. C'est la vie.

 

Ken

[Jody Kruskal]

Dana let me try this instrument recently, and I found his modification by accident, when a Morris-type tune I play sounded funny. No F natural! I'd love to have a low D. Many have thought of this before; ask Doug C. at the Button Box how many folks have asked about it over the years. So I would probably need an extra button on the left for that low D.

 

By the way, Jody's talk of an A/C# button sounds like a reference to a typical 38-Jeffries layout, something he uses, yes? Most of us have the 30-key A/Bb and C#/D#, none of which I would readily give up as I'm finally using them. C'est la vie.

 

Ken

 

 

Hi Ken,

 

When do you use the Bb? I bet you are playing melody down there which I rarely do. I also would miss the low F... what! No root of the 4 chord in C?

[Daniel Hersh]

I see it this way too--I've often wanted that low D on my C/G, but there's nothing that I'd be willing to give up to get it. I think that I'm heading toward a more radical solution to the problem myself: switching to primarily playing a G/D after playing exclusively C/G for 25 years. Even a 20-button G/D has low D's on both push and pull!

 

Daniel

 

Dana let me try this instrument recently, and I found his modification by accident, when a Morris-type tune I play sounded funny. No F natural! I'd love to have a low D. Many have thought of this before; ask Doug C. at the Button Box how many folks have asked about it over the years. So I would probably need an extra button on the left for that low D.

 

By the way, Jody's talk of an A/C# button sounds like a reference to a typical 38-Jeffries layout, something he uses, yes? Most of us have the 30-key A/Bb and C#/D#, none of which I would readily give up as I'm finally using them. C'est la vie.

 

Ken

[Chris Ghent]

I have a low D in place of the A# on one of my concertinas. I know which I play more..!

 

Chris

[JimLucas]

But where to put it? Pull is the most useful direction for that D and short of adding another button I thought of having that low pull D replace the C# pull, second button of the "accidental" or far left hand row. That makes the button play A/D.

When Jody posted the above, I sent him a PM, asking:

Eh? Is the above a mistake, or do you have an unusual C/G? On all the C/G's I've tried with 30 or more buttons, the pull opposite that push low A is a Bb, and the C# is the push on the 3rd button, with a pull D# (Eb) on the same button.

I made it a PM rather than a post, because if it was an error I wanted to give him the chance to correct it.

 

I should have known better!

He didn't make a mistake, and since he concluded his reply with, "You can post this exchange if you think anyone wants to see it besides us," I'm now doing just that.

 

Interesting Jim. I have 4 Jefferies instruments in differing keys. The A/E and G/D both have the interval of the second button as a M3rd. ie transposed to C/G terms A/C#. Those were the ones I looked at for this post. However I just now checked my Bb/F and C/G. Both have the interval of a minor 2nd with the pull being the lower pitch, That is A/G# for the C instrument and G/F# for the Bb. None of my Anglos have the Major second you mention though they all have the C# as the push on the 3rd button.

 

Well I guess that goes to prove that the 2nd button pull pitch is quite variable and therefore up for grabs for making it be the note you find most useful. Like a wild card button.

In a second reply, Jody said:

To add to my reply and the confusion. All of my Jefferies are 38 button instruments. The BB charts for both Wheatstone and Jefferies standard 30 button layouts in C/G have that left button #2 as an A/A#.

Which is what I thought was standard, though I have suddenly remembered that my own 45-button C/G -- which I suspect was originally a Bb/F -- also has a pull G# against the push A (an exception to my claim about "all" C/G's I've tried), the same relative notes as on Jody's Bb/F and C/G.

 

Also in my experience, no two Jeffries anglos with 38 or more buttons are identical either with each other (of course compensating for different keys, like C/G vs. G/D) or with the published layouts.

[geoffwright]

Like you Jody, I like bass runs and have always hankered for the low D - I would have thought it was most useful and can never work out why it is missing on an otherwise standard layout.

It can't just be reed pan space.

[JimLucas]

Like you Jody, I like bass runs and have always hankered for the low D - I would have thought it was most useful and can never work out why it is missing on an otherwise standard layout.

Because it all evolved from a 2-row in C and G, not in D and G. And because at the time it developed further (with the 3rd row and more), playing in F (and maybe even Bb) was more common than playing in D.

 

As has been said many times, the anglo was not devloped for the purpose of playing Irish music, or music particularly in the keys of G and D. The modern popularity (pecularity?) of using it to play those kinds of music came after the period of development, and I believe long after both the Jeffries and Lachenal firms closed forever.

 

By the way, I have an old (! 1950's?) 20-button Corelli anglo in C/G which does have that low D. It's the pull on the lowest button in the G row, instead of the duplicate octave-higher D or pull A, which are the usual suspects for the pull on that button. (The push is "always" a B.)

[stuart estell]

I see it this way too--I've often wanted that low D on my C/G, but there's nothing that I'd be willing to give up to get it. I think that I'm heading toward a more radical solution to the problem myself: switching to primarily playing a G/D after playing exclusively C/G for 25 years. Even a 20-button G/D has low D's on both push and pull!

 

Yes, and moreover, on a C/G I'd want that D in both directions. On a G/D I'd want the low A!

 

I remember talking to John Kirkpatrick about this very issue a few years ago. He was really excited when he discovered that a Jeffries Bb/F Hobgoblin were selling at Swaledale that year did actually have that bottom C (the equivalent of the low D on a C/G) in both ways.

[chris]

Hi

I'm really glad I bought English (by accident more than design- it was cheap) . I don't think I could cope with the stress of never having the 'right/most useful' button layout, and then there is which key to buy- decisions,decisions . There seems to be a lot of time, effort, thought, and frustration goes into playing Anglo. Can't leave much time and energy for playing

chris

[Marien]

For those who play UK, American, French, German, Swedish, South African, Australian etc. (did I miss anyone?)

 

Did you miss Dutch and Flemish, Finnish, Palistinian and Jamaican etc. or was it all included in the etc.?.

 

About the layout, I like to keep the Bb with the A for old Dutch tunes. Maybe I would like the D on the 5th button of the accidental row, but it feels that that would be "far out". I would not know where to place it elsewhere.

[Jody Kruskal]

I see it this way too--I've often wanted that low D on my C/G, but there's nothing that I'd be willing to give up to get it. I think that I'm heading toward a more radical solution to the problem myself: switching to primarily playing a G/D after playing exclusively C/G for 25 years. Even a 20-button G/D has low D's on both push and pull!

 

Yes, and moreover, on a C/G I'd want that D in both directions. On a G/D I'd want the low A!

 

I remember talking to John Kirkpatrick about this very issue a few years ago. He was really excited when he discovered that a Jeffries Bb/F Hobgoblin were selling at Swaledale that year did actually have that bottom C (the equivalent of the low D on a C/G) in both ways.

 

Right Daniel. If you play mostly tunes in the Major keys of G, D, A with rare forays into C and E (including all of these keys modes and relative minors) then a G/D makes most sense. That would make the pitch we are discussing an A.

 

Yes John would like that. I'm really quite excited about having that note on all of my instruments and don't think I would miss any of the lost notes very much. I have a G/D Dipper with an extra C/A button (below the first button on the third row left hand) that I've been playing for 5 years. I've found that I almost never play the C push and play the A pull frequently. Having the A pull only feels like enough. So it seems like I've got a potentially open spot for a low push note that I actually would use. If I had it to do over again I'm not sure what would be the best candidate for the push pitch. any ideas?

[Mark Evans]

Hi

I'm really glad I bought English (by accident more than design- it was cheap) . I don't think I could cope with the stress of never having the 'right/most useful' button layout, and then there is which key to buy- decisions,decisions . There seems to be a lot of time, effort, thought, and frustration goes into playing Anglo. Can't leave much time and energy for playing

chris

 

 

Amen! Glad you spoke up for I was thinkin' it. Just trying to follow these two threads was burnin' up an already greatly diminished mental acumen.

[JimLucas]

Just trying to follow these two threads was burnin' up an already greatly diminished mental acumen.

Only two? Then you've missed a couple.

And I mean of the ones currently running, regarding which notes to put where on an anglo.

[asdormire]

As has been said many times, the anglo was not devloped for the purpose of playing Irish music, or music particularly in the keys of G and D. The modern popularity (pecularity?) of using it to play those kinds of music came after the period of development, and I believe long after both the Jeffries and Lachenal firms closed forever.

 

and I find F really nice to play on my C/G, to the point when I find sources in both F and C, or F and G, I will choose to play it in F.

 

Alan

[Jody Kruskal]

Hi

I'm really glad I bought English (by accident more than design- it was cheap) . I don't think I could cope with the stress of never having the 'right/most useful' button layout, and then there is which key to buy- decisions,decisions . There seems to be a lot of time, effort, thought, and frustration goes into playing Anglo. Can't leave much time and energy for playing

chris

 

 

Amen! Glad you spoke up for I was thinkin' it. Just trying to follow these two threads was burnin' up an already greatly diminished mental acumen.

 

Yeah, words words words, when what really matters is the music, how it sounds and how it fees to play it.

 

Chris, you have a good point there. The English system makes much more sense conceptually. What makes the Anglo so fun though is figuring out how to use the wacky patterns that the hodgepodge of a system presents. The amazing thing is how well it actually works in practice.

[asdormire]

Because it all evolved from a 2-row in C and G, not in D and G. And because at the time it developed further (with the 3rd row and more), playing in F (and maybe even Bb) was more common than playing in D.

 

This was the bit a meant to quote in the earlier post.

 

Alan