Duet Vs Anglo

[fidjit]

Having heard Tommy William's with, "Springtime in Battersea" and "Woodland Flowers" on Duet, I'd like to know the basic differences between Duet and Anglo?

 

I play a Lachenal Anglo. (I use the term, play, loosely) And although I can get through the above they don't have the same bite. I know, I know, comparing myself with Tommy Williams, forget it.

 

No, but what or how is the Duet made up??

 

Chas

Edited March 11, 2007 by fidjit

[Dirge]

The notes play the same both ways (so you need twice the buttons and twice the weight but are only concerned with bellows timing, not direction)

 

The names Hayden, Maccan, Triumph, Crane et al merely denote the system used to lay out the keyboards

 

The high notes are on the right, the low on the left, and you have a fairish crossover of mid range repeated at the top of the left hand and the bottom of the right hand, so the range is not as large as "the number of buttons divided by twelve".

 

When I said "What a strange thing" as I tried an Anglo, Colin Dipper commented "What you have to remember is it is really a duet". Just to confuse you.

 

But is that about what you wanted?

[fidjit]

The notes play the same both ways (so you need twice the buttons and twice the weight but are only concerned with bellows timing, not direction)

 

The names Hayden, Maccan, Triumph, Crane et al merely denote the system used to lay out the keyboards

 

The high notes are on the right, the low on the left, and you have a fairish crossover of mid range repeated at the top of the left hand and the bottom of the right hand, so the range is not as large as "the number of buttons divided by twelve".

 

When I said "What a strange thing" as I tried an Anglo, Colin Dipper commented "What you have to remember is it is really a duet". Just to confuse you.

 

But is that about what you wanted?

 

 

A glorified English system then. Can't get on with English, so I'll stick to my Anglo. Get more exercise that way.

 

I'll be seeing Colin Dipper at Stowmarket, end of March, so I'll ask him about that comment.

 

Chas

[David Barnert]

A glorified English system then. Can't get on with English, so I'll stick to my Anglo. Get more exercise that way.

Nonsense. FWIW, I can't "get on" with the English system either, but have been happily and successfully playing the Hayden duet system for 20 years.

 

The only problem with duets is availability. Nobody makes Maccanns or Cranes (Triumphs) anymore (although decent ones become available from time to time) and with Haydens you either have to go for a poorly made Stagi (the only folks reliably and continuously producing any kind of duet concertina) or wait long and indefinite periods of time for a quality instrument maker to produce one for you.

[Chris Timson]

When I said "What a strange thing" as I tried an Anglo, Colin Dipper commented "What you have to remember is it is really a duet".

And so it is - a concertina with the low notes on the left and the high notes on the right with some overlap between the two. Playing a melody on the right hand and accompaniment on the left is, I belive, intrinsic to the original design of the anglo (not disparaging the Irish approach of spreading the melody over both hands, which is both ingenious and musical, just a historical observation).

 

Chris

[Delbert Blackketter]

When I said "What a strange thing" as I tried an Anglo, Colin Dipper commented "What you have to remember is it is really a duet".

And so it is - a concertina with the low notes on the left and the high notes on the right with some overlap between the two. Playing a melody on the right hand and accompaniment on the left is, I belive, intrinsic to the original design of the anglo (not disparaging the Irish approach of spreading the melody over both hands, which is both ingenious and musical, just a historical observation).

 

Chris

 

All

 

I really like the 'Springtime In Battersea' recording on 'Label is Not Removeable' My favorite part is probably hearing Mr. Williams announce the title.

 

Perhaps it would be interesting to hear that or some similar tune played in approximately the same arrangement by English, Anglo, Duet, and then discuss the ease/difficulty/'pleaseantness' of sound

 

For example, I have been practicing the tune 'Angeline the Baker' which Jody Kruskal will be teaching to the West Texas Concertina Gathering, and on my mini-Stagi 18 I can rip through it in a very lively fashion; on an Anglo - not nearly as lively, fun, etc. Skill may be the key, but the instrument does matter! Iam beginning to think that an English might be the thing if all I had on Anglo would be 30 buttons. Now Anglo above 30 . . .

 

Del

[fidjit]

 

All

 

I really like the 'Springtime In Battersea' recording on 'Label is Not Removeable' My favorite part is probably hearing Mr. Williams announce the title.

 

Perhaps it would be interesting to hear that or some similar tune played in approximately the same arrangement by English, Anglo, Duet, and then discuss the ease/difficulty/'pleaseantness' of sound

 

Del

 

Yes that's the one. Great stuff. I like the three variations of "Woodland Flowers" too. Led firstly by Mr Williams and finished by The Old Swan Band.

 

Your idea of variations of a tune on three different systems should be taken up. Perhaps by someone who has the three different systems.

 

Chas

[Christian Husmann]

A glorified English system then. Can't get on with English, so I'll stick to my Anglo. Get more exercise that way.

Nonsense. FWIW, I can't "get on" with the English system either, but have been happily and successfully playing the Hayden duet system for 20 years.

 

Hm,

 

anglo vs duet vs english...

 

I read very often that people "cant get on with the English system" - So, I am aware of the fact that simply a lot of anglo players do post here but still there remains the question why. Is it a question of preference to the music played on the instrument or a question of technique? Or?

I play the English system and reading the posts here I do think that sometimes it´s only a matter of personal like. For example if somebody says on an anglo you´re allowed to play a tune very rhythmical because of the change of bellows - I´d do that as well. If a tune needs a lot of emphasis I´d change the bellows as well to make the music more lively instead of pulling to the end and than changing direction.

 

So, is it just a matter of taste?

 

thanks

Christian

[Richard Morse]

Your idea of variations of a tune on three different systems should be taken up. Perhaps by someone who has the three different systems.

How about someone suggesting a tune and have folks here play/post it so everyone can hear how differently they come out on the different systems?

 

I play Hayden duet, and can manage a few tunes on anglo and English.... The thing I like about duets so much is that I don't have to wrack my brains to workout/remember strange fingerings when playing tunes as the notes work in both directions. Sure you can get some pretty amazing contrapuntal stuff out of an anglo - particularly in the "home keys", but even that's a lot of work. How about playing in other keys, like A on a C/G box?

 

Even the simplest stuff can be hard on an anglo - like a simple chromatic bass line against a tune on the right. Not a problem at all for duets. And to be able to have almost a chromatic octave of overlapping notes....!

 

-- Rich --

[JimLucas]

anglo vs duet vs english...

 

I read very often that people "cant get on with the English system"...

I've also met quite a few who "can't get on with" the anglo.

 

While I'm gradually getting more comfortable with both anglos and different duets, it's been a years-long learning curve. But I found the English quite natural from the start, playing a tune with harmony within minutes the first time I had one in my hands. (And no one had even told me which notes were where.)

 

...there remains the question why.

Is it a question of preference to the music played on the instrument...

For some. (Usually, "the music they've heard played" is more accurate than just "the music played".)

 

...or a question of technique?

For some.

 

Or?

For some, it's just the one they first heard played

For others it's the first they found for sale (that they could afford).

Or the availability of instruction... people, books, or videos.

 

But there are also those who find that the way their brains are connected up seems to be incompatible with a particular feature of one of the systems (e.g., needing to change bellows direction between musically adjacent notes on an anglo, or needing to change hands between musically adjacent notes on an Énglish). They tried one system and just couldn't get it to work, yet found no difficulty with another.

 

I play the English system and reading the posts here I do think that sometimes it´s only a matter of personal like. For example if somebody says on an anglo you´re allowed to play a tune very rhythmical because of the change of bellows - I´d do that as well. If a tune needs a lot of emphasis I´d change the bellows as well to make the music more lively instead of pulling to the end and than changing direction.

And I think there are even some who believe that one system or another is more limited than it actually is. E.g., what you describe about bellows changes.

 

So, is it just a matter of taste?

Not "just", but sometimes. The only single rule that covers all cases is, "Different strokes for different folks." But that's just a rephrasing of your question, which is, "What causes different people to favor their particular strokes?"

[fidjit]

And so it is - a concertina with the low notes on the left and the high notes on the right with some overlap between the two. Playing a melody on the right hand and accompaniment on the left is, I belive, intrinsic to the original design of the anglo (not disparaging the Irish approach of spreading the melody over both hands, which is both ingenious and musical, just a historical observation).

 

Chris

Like most other things I take on I've probably started at the wrong end. I play melody with both hands, but primarily starting with the left. Push in a chord like sound for raz-a-ma-taz now and then.

I read all the time. Melody with the right hand, accompaniment with the left. I can get some of it. But my right hand side sounds a tad squeaky to me. So ergo start on the left. It feels more comfortable. Especially when I sing along.

Plus I like the kind of Bellamy stile songs. A la, On board a 98, or Dockyard Gate. With a bit of English Country Dance Omph.

 

Chas

Edited March 11, 2007 by fidjit

[Chris Timson]

Perhaps it would be interesting to hear that or some similar tune played in approximately the same arrangement by English, Anglo, Duet, and then discuss the ease/difficulty/'pleaseantness' of sound

I'm not sure how productive or true to life that would be. I've long advocated that people should choose the system they prefer and then work out how to play the music they want, but having said that I would expect that their arrangements would be ones that suited the system. There are things that Englishes can do that are tricky on the anglo and vice versa. And then you bring duets of different systems into the equation. The test as specified is too rigid. Choose a common tune, but let people devise their own arrangements. (And at the end of it I reckon all one would achieve is confirmation of one's own prejudices. Vive la difference!).

 

Chris

Edited March 11, 2007 by Chris Timson

[JimLucas]

I really like the 'Springtime In Battersea' recording on 'Label is Not Removeable'....

 

Perhaps it would be interesting to hear that or some similar tune played in approximately the same arrangement by English, Anglo, Duet, and then discuss the ease/difficulty/'pleaseantness' of sound.

I think several different pieces in several different styles would give a more realistic picture. Judging an English or anglo on how well it can reproduce a style that was developed on a duet is unfair without having styles developed on anglo and English each imitated by the others, too. But IMO, imitation isn't a proper test. The test is to see what you can get out of the instrument you have, with different styles for different pieces.

 

How about someone suggesting a tune and have folks here play/post it so everyone can hear how differently they come out on the different systems?

That's good, but how about several different "tunes", or pieces?

 

Just for fun, I'll suggest

1. Maggie in the Woods (common Irish-English-etc. polka)
   
2. White Christmas (everybody knows this one, right?)
   
3. Sweet Adeline (common barbershop quartet number)
   
4. Trip to Paris (Playford country dance tune)
   
5. God Save the Queen ("America" to USAns)
   
6. Angeline the Baker (or "Angelina Baker", by Stephen Foster)
   
7. Ain't Misbehavin' (a well-known jazz song)
   
8. Drunken Sailor (the shanty, not the Irish reel also known as "The Tipsy Sailor")
   
9. Morrison's Jig (well-known and Irish)
   
10. Princess Royal (pick your Morris tradition, or do it as an O'Carolan piece)
    

I hope you can see what I'm getting at. I haven't listed anything "classical", bluegrass, blues, Bulgarian, klezmer, Sousa marches, etc., nor anything very complicated. I encourage others to add their own suggestions, and to submit examples of how they play any or all, on whatever instrument.

 

Even the simplest stuff can be hard on an anglo - like a simple chromatic bass line against a tune on the right. Not a problem at all for duets.

Neither is it a problem for those who don't feel a need to use such a run in their music. I'd be curious to hear where you would use such a run in any of the above.

And to be able to have almost a chromatic octave of overlapping notes....!

Is that enough to play "Flight of the Bumblebee" in octaves?

[harpomatic]

I've recently tried CBA - isn't it a super logical layout? Seems to be a perfect layout for transposing. Would we consider new Geuns CBA bandoneons as a "duet" kind of concertina?

[ocd]

Even the simplest stuff can be hard on an anglo - like a simple chromatic bass line against a tune on the right. Not a problem at all for duets.

 

Neither is it a problem for those who don't feel a need to use such a run in their music. I'd be curious to hear where you would use such a run in any of the above.

 

 

Patient: "Doctor, it hurts when I do this."

Doctor: "Don't do that!"

 

ocd

[JimLucas]

Patient: "Doctor, it hurts when I do this."

Doctor: "Don't do that!"

Squeezer: "Doctor, it hurts when I duet."

Doctor: "Then don't do it!"

[ragtimer]

But there are also those who find that the way their brains are connected up seems to be incompatible with a particular feature of one of the systems (e.g., needing to change bellows direction between musically adjacent notes on an anglo, or needing to change hands between musically adjacent notes on an Énglish). They tried one system and just couldn't get it to work, yet found no difficulty with another.

I tend to agree with this. During a Workshop, I sat in the Button Box showroom and tried out Anglo, English, and Hayden Duet tinas. I could sort of play a scale on the Anglo, having played harmonica in junior high school. But no real idea how to make chords.

 

My left brain approved of the Emglish system, which permits very fast playing in any key -- but I just couldn't make my hands alternate to play a scale. Maybe after a couple hours I could have beaten it into my cerebellum, but who knows? I do intend to try EC again sometime. But I cannot type the owrd "just" or "have" without them coming out "jsut" and "ahve", so I wonder if I could ever time the two hands properly on an EC.

 

Then Rich Morse showed me the Hayden, In less than a minute I was playing scales, and figuning out chords in the LH. Given the fact that I really wanted a miniature piano -- something I could play both melody and chords and bass on -- it was pretty clear which tina I would buy that day.

 

I appreciate that Anglo and English players can add a lot of chording and bass to their playing, but I'd guess that it took them longer to get to that point, not just because it's harder on their instruments, but also the cultural expectations are that they'll play melodies faster and with mroe expression, etc., rather than concentrate on chordal accompaniment.

 

More straight melody playing, I'd advocate an EC or Anglo. For accompnying yourself, I still vote for a Duet.

--Mike K.

[Chris Ghent]

[ For example if somebody says on an anglo you´re allowed to play a tune very rhythmical because of the change of bellows - I´d do that as well.

 

Theory...

 

Statements about rhythm being naturally aided by bellows reversals tend to be made by people who don't play the Anglo.

 

Chris