Fake Concertinas

[Blackmore]

Hi, wonder if it was common with fake concertinas back in the 40s? 

Have a 48 button with no brand on since around this time. I know it is this old since my grand dad played it in Salvation army at this time. The case is from Giovanardi factory which was active between 20-40 s in Italy. Looks Identical to this one except no made in Italy.

[Peter Laban]

It's a concertina, possibly Italian made,  and it's not pretending to be anything it's not. Why do you think it's 'fake'?

Edited July 14, 2023 by Peter Laban

[Blackmore]

1 minute ago, Peter Laban said:

It's a concertina, possibly Italian made  and it's not pretending to be anything it's not. Why do you think it's 'fake'?

 

Concertine Italia says mine is a fake. Send a photo below. 

[Blackmore]

[David Barnert]

So they are saying (in imperfect English) not that it isn’t a real concertina, but that it isn’t a real Italian concertina.

 

It’s only “fake” if it is claimed to be a product of Concertine Italia.

[Mikefule]

Yes, "fake" = "counterfeit" and entails a deliberate element of falseness.

 

If someone made a copy of a Jeffries, and included Jeffries branding or marks, and tried to make it look the appropriate age, that would be a fake.

 

A cheap and cheerless mass produced item with no attempt at passing it off as an established brand is not a fake.

[Stephen Chambers]

The concertina in your photo (is that your instrument, or another one similar to it? It's not clear.) looks very much like a Bastari English-system concertina, and I remember seeing them first advertised, as a new development, in Free Reed/The Concertina Newsletter in the early 1970s.

 

Bastari (a firm set up after WW2) became Stagi, and then became Brunner, before being reincarnated as  Concertine Italia...

[Blackmore]

Hi Stephen, first concertina is one I found on the net. Second is the one I have. Theres no brand on them. No one seems to know what it is. 

[Stephen Chambers]

12 minutes ago, Blackmore said:

Second is the one I have. There's no brand on them. No one seems to know what it is. 

 

Like I said, it's a Bastari.

 

See Free Reed/The Concertina Newsletter, No. 17 January/February 1974 for the launch of this model: https://www.concertinamuseum.com/FreeReed/FR17.pdf

[Blackmore]

6 hours ago, Stephen Chambers said:

 

Like I said, it's a Bastari.

 

See Free Reed/The Concertina Newsletter, No. 17 January/February 1974 for the launch of this model: https://www.concertinamuseum.com/FreeReed/FR17.pdf

 

Thank you very much Stephen! Why do you think Concertine Italia says its not a Stagi or Bastari? Didnt those concertinas have brand on them?

[DaveRo]

In the other thread you said "I had mail correspondense with the factory. They say its a Chinese fake. " What did you actually ask them? Their English is poor. I think you're reading too much into their reply.

 

If you doubt Stephen, you could tell them - politely - that expert opinion is that it's a Bastari. Ask in Italian (Google translate) and invite a response in Italian. 

 

Edited to add: I doubt if the ladies at Concertine Italia know much about Bastaris. But they probably know people who do. Get them interested in this instrument so they think it's worth helping you. Take care over your enquiry. You might learn something interesting and it may help you sell it.

Edited July 15, 2023 by DaveRo

[Stephen Chambers]

10 hours ago, Blackmore said:

Thank you very much Stephen! Why do you think Concertine Italia says its not a Stagi or Bastari? Didn't those concertinas have brand on them?

 

The lovely ladies at  Concertine Italia are maybe not aware of the (perfectly normal) trade practices of their predecessors (whilst I've had years of practical experience with accordion/concertina manufacturers in both Italy and Germany).

 

These English-system concertinas were originally made for Oliver Heatwole in the United States, starting in 1972, then launched in the UK at the beginning of 1974 (at which time Heatwole published his tutor book). None of the concertinas made for Heatwole (or supplied to Neil Wayne in England) had any maker's name on them.

 

Whilst later incarnations of the firm continued to label their products Bastari to sell in some markets (e.g. Zulu speakers sometimes actually call the concertina "iBastari"), or with importers'/wholesalers' own brands such as Hohner, or Gremlin, etc.

 

 

Edited July 15, 2023 by Stephen Chambers

[Blackmore]

Thank you very much guys!👍😊

[Blackmore]

On 7/15/2023 at 12:56 PM, Stephen Chambers said:

 

The lovely ladies at  Concertine Italia are maybe not aware of the (perfectly normal) trade practices of their predecessors (whilst I've had years of practical experience with accordion/concertina manufacturers in both Italy and Germany).

 

These English-system concertinas were originally made for Oliver Heatwole in the United States, starting in 1972, then launched in the UK at the beginning of 1974 (at which time Heatwole published his tutor book). None of the concertinas made for Heatwole (or supplied to Neil Wayne in England) had any maker's name on them.

 

Whilst later incarnations of the firm continued to label their products Bastari to sell in some markets (e.g. Zulu speakers sometimes actually call the concertina "iBastari"), or with importers'/wholesalers' own brands such as Hohner, or Gremlin, etc.

 

 

 

[Blackmore]

2 minutes ago, Blackmore said:

 

 

[Blackmore]

I don’t know if you can tell more when I’ve opened it.

[Bill N]

The way the reeds are mounted flat, rather than vertically on blocks like in a modern day Stagi and every Italian and Chinese instrument that I have seen, confirms that it is definitely a Bastari. A similar one (although an Anglo) is pictured here:

https://www.concertina.net/kc_bastari.html

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by Bill N

[malcolm clapp]

I don't think the current owners of the Bastari/Stagi business have done themself any favours by their condemnation of the concertina in question as being a Chinese knock-off.  I've repaired quite a few of these over the years. their main fault being poor quality bellows binding material for top runs (easily replaced with leather before the wear gets too advanced). However, I did hear a rumour (from a usually reliable source) that the bellows were manufactured in China....

The  ingenious reed mounting design works well and the response and sound produced is imho quite reasonable, if not quite what one would expect from "real" concertina reeds. No doubt in my mind that the instrument in the OP's photos is a product of the Bastari/Stagi factory, and a cut above any other concertina model that I've seen out of Italy, even allowing for the bellows manufacture perhaps having been outsourced.