Are some high level Anglo instruments just easier to play than others?

[richard]

Hi

I would like to hear from other about their similar experiences playing on different "high level" instruments.

 

Are some instruments "easier" to play than others?

 

I am fortunate that I have some wonderful instruments in my modest collection that give me great pleasure and each has it's own particular qualities, and tone, not withstanding being in different keys.

 

For me my Dipper C/G is the instrument that I can play/perform best on. Though speed isn't my goal or forte I can play faster with more agility, articulateness, control and endurance, etc.

 

I also have a swell Jeffries Bb/F which has a magical tone and is a real keeper. I can play this pretty well but with not quite as much facility or endurance as my C/G Dipper. The Jeffries definitely has a bit more "resistance" in pulling the sound from the reeds. I wonder would or should it be so different from the C/G Dipper? Maybe it is difference between a Dipper and a Jeffries?

 

I would say both are in tip top technical shape, fine fettle, and not "dogs".

 

The Jeffries Bb/F reeds definitely give more "resist than the C/G reeds. I know that is not remarkable for lower pitched reeds but should it be so noticeable for sets of reeds that are not too far apart in tuning?

 

Could I have two different Jeffries of the same tuning, for example and have them noticeably different in ease of play?

 

I do just accept them as two different experiences both with great qualities. I see my mastering, or aiming to get the same quality of music out of the more "difficult" instrument as the pathway to better playing in general. At one level playing the Jeffries and then switching to the Dipper is like running with weights then enjoying the increased strength and facility when I take them off.

 

Perhaps this is all about "resistance"??

 

I also play an Ab/Eb which is so much lower pitch from the C/G that I have no surprise or sense of failure at my struggle to get Music out of that.

 

Someone told me a long time ago before I took the plunge to a higher level of instrument "just get a good concertina and learn how to play IT".

 

So is it just me that plays at a higher level (whatever that may be) on one instrument more than another?

 

Thanks,

 

Richard

 

Edited March 2, 2023 by richard

[Jewish Leprechaun]

Richard, this is a great post and shoot I've been thinking the same thing.

 

So here's my take on my new "AMG Mercedes" vs my antique "Rolls Royce"; a C/G Suttner A1 (30 buttons, 5.75" across the flats, 2lbs 6oz) and a C/G Jeffries (38 buttons, 6.0625" across the flats, 3lbs 3oz).

 

So jumping right into this, I'll point out the obvious.  The Suttner is much lighter than the Jeffries.  The Suttner is a bit smaller, so the air pressure on the reeds should be greater greater.  

 

That being said, I have come to the same conclusion as your comparison between your Dipper and your Jeffries.  My Suttner is just a mechanical marvel, smooth lightning fast, the reeds speak with minimal effort.  It is my go to session instrument.  BUT my Jeffries has that something special with how the reeds sound; they can also be played louder than the Suttner.  

 

Now no one misconstrue what I'm saying.  The Jeffries can be played just as quickly as the Suttner.  However, Like you're saying Richard, the reeds on the Jeffries take a bit more effort to get them speaking which results in more bellows movement.  And while it's only a little over a quarter of an inch across the flats difference, the 6 fold bellows of the Jeffries have a lot more air capacity, so I still end up using the air key about the same amount.

 

My question remains, what is causing the difference in how quickly the reeds speak. Is it a function of the difference in weights between the two instruments?  Or perhaps it's the variation of internal pressures on the reeds derived from the difference in the size of the instruments across the flats?  Or is it something to do with the hardness of the steel of the reeds?

 

I haven't figured it out yet.  But both instruments are a delight to play, just in different ways and in different environments.  I explain to non-concertina people that it's similar to driving a new luxury automatic sports car versus a 1960s manual sports car.  Both are fun to take out and drive, but you drive them in different ways and to different places, and certainly the old manual is more effort, but it's totally worth it.

[Jim Besser]

On 2/27/2023 at 2:45 PM, richard said:

 

 

Someone told me a long time ago before I took the plunge to a higher level of instrument "just get a good concertina and learn how to play IT".

 

So is it just me that plays at a higher level (whatever that may be) on one instrument more than another?

 

 

 

 

It's not just you. 

 

For every great vintage brand - Wheatstone, Jeffries, Lachenal, Crabb - there were variations in quality straight from the factory.  And differences over the course of a brand's existence: early vs late Jeffries, Linota Wheatsones vs. later, etc.  Then, the impact of time: many decades of use, or decades of just sitting on a shelf. And the unpredictable results of many trips to the shop for minor tweaking or major repairs.

 

I'm a Jeffries person because I love the sound.  I've played many Jeffries Anglos; some are incredibly smooth and easy to play, and I've played a few dogs. And many in between.  Every one I've played has felt different, which has affected my playing.

 

 I haven't liked most of the vintage Wheatstones I've played - but a few years back I had a go on one that was - for my individual way of playing - absolute magic.  Five minutes into the experience, I felt like I was playing better than ever. Sadly, it belonged to someone else, and short of burglary, I was never going to get it.

 

And - 'high level instruments' is a very fuzzy term.  Often I feel that I play best on my Morse C/G Anglo - a modern, modestly priced hybrid box with accordion reeds. Something about it - the touch of the buttons, the lightness of the instrument, the way the reeds respond - elevates my playing in ways that my vintage boxes, whose sound I prefer, do not.

 

 

Edited March 1, 2023 by Jim Besser

[seanc]

No experience with the mentioned specifically..

 

but, in the guitar world… you get a certain level of instrument. And even though they may be 100% equal in quality.. some just fit the player better. You might be able to match all the specs. But, one just speaks to the player and in some way speaks for the player.

 

and really what it comes down to is that one instrument has to inspire the player. that could really be anything.. one has bone buttons the exact same model has gold buttons.. but one just seems to make the player work harder, or play easier.

 

[Anglo-Irishman]

As a concertinist, I'm very glad to have my Dallas/Crabb anglo, to which I upgraded from my old but good Stagi anglo. The latter wasn't much fun at the start - it had teething problems, especially with the buttons - but when the bellows had collapsed, and I'd had a new bellows made by Concertina Connection (then still in NL) it was twice the instrument it had been! Which just goes to show what varied parameters make for subjective quality in a concertina. The Stagi reeds are still in tune after 25 years; the Wakker bellows is really optimal for an Anglo; and my fingers have learnt to press the buttons in such a way as to keep them upright!

Where the Crabb scores is in the sound of the reeds. But sometimes I wish it had the bellows that Wakker made for my Stagi. The Crabb bellows are also a replacement, apparently fitted in South Africa, and are just a shade too supple for my liking.

 

As a banjoist, I enjoy my high-grade, pre World War One, Windsor zither-banjo. It has a loud but pleasant timbre, and it is easy to play, in that little strength is required to fret the strings cleanly. It's my obvious choice for a gig. On the other hand, I have a cheap, Japanese aluminium-potted resonator banjo with a plastic head. I used it in my Irish folk band, usually via the PA system with a pick-up. I never soloed with it.

Until recently!

I adjusted the neck angle, fitted a new plastic head, replaced the resonator with a simple back panel, fitted new strings - and WOW! I do play it solo now! It's as loud as my Windsor, and almost as good-sounding and as easy to fret. I take it on gigs where I'll have to play outdoors, because its plastic head is less temperamental in changing humidity than the vellum head of my Windsor.

 

In short, a very important word in the banjoist's vocabulary, which is unknown to most other instrumentalists, is "set-up". No banjo is all good or all bad - it's the set-up that counts! When a banjo changes hands, the new owner will probably alter the set-up to suit him or herself. That's one option that concertinists don't have!😉

Cheers,

John

 

[richard]

Hi

 

In reading the responses I have these thoughts.

 

I know the designation "high level instruments" is a bit fraught with inferred snobbery or smugness. I did intend to mean instruments made with concertina reeds by a group of accepted makers past and present. But for the purposes of my burning questions I did not intend to include too much of the subjective perspective as in "the instrument one may happen to love".

 

I don't think one could define the "better" instrument necessarily by just it's smoothness or ease of getting noises out of the reeds with the bellows (or precision, smoothness,  and high quality of the action components). It can't only be limited to that that because I know there are instruments that don't have those strengths that have a tone that compensates for falling short on other qualities and you can hear that when a great player especially is playing a "challenging" instrument.

 

But I suppose the quality of smoothness of playing with just enough resistance, but not too much, and an efficient action mechanism, is what I am really referring to.

 

May I say the skill and strength of the player determines the whether any instrument can make great music? And maybe strength is a component in great playing that should not be undervalued.

 

Richard

Edited March 2, 2023 by richard

[Anglo-Irishman]

18 hours ago, richard said:

I did intend to mean instruments made with concertina reeds by a group of accepted makers past and present. But for the purposes of my burning questions I did not intend to include too much of the subjective perspective as in "the instrument one may happen to love".

Okay ... but the quality of "easy to play" is in itself subjective. Classic example with the Anglo concertina: depending on the size of your hands, you may have difficulty reaching the accidentals row, or you may feel cramped when playing the inner row - of one and the same concertina! Another subjective assessment is the stiffness/stoutness of the bellows. Some prefer more, some less. And I believe most players will get accustomed to any shortcomings their instrument may have, and may even find a "superior" instrument difficult to play at first.

Cheers,

John

[richard]

Hi John

 

I indeed did mean and understand that it is subjective. This is what I was asking to hear.....other's subjective experience as  an individual playing 2 or more different instruments and comparing the experience,involving concertinas of different keys or the same, for I suppose you could call it "playability". And yes it could also include instruments with accordion reeds.

 

And I was thinking in the context that yes the instrument I play best is considered a quality instrument, but, and yes the instrument I can play but not quite as well is of quality as well....So what is my problem?

 

Do you get the same quality of music, or playing out of each one. My experience is that no I don't. I have more success with one rather than another. But I keep trying!

 

I'd also like to add that my question was in no way intended to stir up and invite to hear anyone's subjective preferences of one concertina maker over another and why, especially regarding current makers and their fine products. I'm glad the conversation has not steered in that inappropriate direction!

 

Richard

Edited March 3, 2023 by richard

[AndyNT]

When I've tried different instruments at a dealers, music shop, festival stand,  I have found the highest price tag isn't necessarily attached to the one I like playing the best, once you move above a certain level of instrument.

Two seemingly identical instruments can feel different, and so I'll probably have a preference.

I prefer metal ended concertinas with metal buttons because that is what I'm most used to playing.

 

And of the instruments at home, I'm most comfortable playing the one I spend most time with. When that has changed for whatever reason, then allegiances can drift as well!

 

[d.elliott]

I think that thee is a tendency to confuse high grade historical instruments with those products that enjoy high levels of consistency and precision that result from computer controlled mass production and manufacture from equally consistent materials. Woods are naturally formed, leather is dead animal skin, the glues were made from animal bye-products etc etc. Even brand new, off the shelf, there would have been variations in weight, resistance, settings etc. between instruments of the same model made only a couple of weeks apart by the same people on the same jigs and fixtures.

 

Then each instrument would have suffered or enjoyed a different history. 

 

The historic high grade instrument to today's player means it's finishing standard, standard of workmanship that was applied, specific features that were incorporated, the best choice of materials that were employed, and the highest probability of consistency in play. It is not a guarantee that the concertina has been treated or serviced well, that the bellows were actually as supple as it's neighbour on the shelf, that is for the modern purchaser to explore. 

[Mikefule]

Definitely, within every level, there are instruments that are easier or more difficult to play.

 

When I chose my Lachenal 20b, I played 6 and the choice was very clear to me.  Since then, I have played several others and only found one better.  This was nothing to do with overall condition or specification. Just some played more nicely than others.

 

When I bought my Dipper GD, I tried several quality GD instruments including one other Dipper  The decision was easy to make as one played so much better than the others.

 

I have played several Normans, and found them all cheerful boxes to play but some more difficult than others.

 

However, one of the finest players I ever knew swore by one specific Irish maker (I won't mention the name) and had 2 or 3 of their boxes.  I could barely get a tune out of them, and hated them, but he could play them far better than I willever play my own box.

 

So, while there is considerable variation within makes and "price points", there is also the danger of the bad workman blaming his tools.

 

I have taken the big step recently of ordering a box unseen.  I trust the manufacturer, but I have to accept the risk that I will be disappointed with the result.  I prefer to try before I buy.