Mark Evans Posted April 25, 2005 Share Posted April 25, 2005 Why do ceiling fans have that tremolo effect on free reed instruments? Even in the stone chapel here with (I'm guessing) 40 feet or better up to the offending fans the tremolo is horrible. No other instrument or the human voice seems to be effected in a similar manner. There are some mighty smart cats prowling this sight and I figure after 25 years of being perplexed and sometimes vexed with this situation I'll ask and be enlightened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted April 25, 2005 Share Posted April 25, 2005 Why do ceiling fans have that tremolo effect on free reed instruments? ... There are some mighty smart cats prowling this sight and I figure after 25 years of being perplexed and sometimes vexed with this situation I'll ask and be enlightened. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Mark, You are not the first to ask, the topic has already been dicussed, both last year, and in the old forums. Mind you, with our weather we don't experience it here (no call for ceiling fans ... ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Evans Posted April 25, 2005 Author Share Posted April 25, 2005 Thank you Stephen. I shall go hence and learn . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Evans Posted April 25, 2005 Author Share Posted April 25, 2005 So....we don't know other than it does. Kinda cool...kinda . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken_Coles Posted April 25, 2005 Share Posted April 25, 2005 This was also discussed ad nauseum (it really did go on endlessly) once or twice on the squeezebox newsgroup (try deja news to find it). I was vaguely interested at first, but so many windbags and blowhards putting forward various reasons wore me out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Read Posted April 25, 2005 Share Posted April 25, 2005 So, you're not a fan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Jowaisas Posted April 26, 2005 Share Posted April 26, 2005 Or perhaps the number of explanations exceeded Ken's ceiling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RELCOLLECT Posted April 26, 2005 Share Posted April 26, 2005 Perhaps the dizzying number of possible explanations left him in a spin.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigsqueezergeezer Posted April 26, 2005 Share Posted April 26, 2005 "the answer my friend, is blowing in the wind" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerry Posted April 26, 2005 Share Posted April 26, 2005 Sounds like a lot of "hot air" to me! Gerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael01612 Posted April 27, 2005 Share Posted April 27, 2005 Why do ceiling fans have that tremolo effect on free reed instruments? Even in the stone chapel here with (I'm guessing) 40 feet or better up to the offending fans the tremolo is horrible. No other instrument or the human voice seems to be effected in a similar manner. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It's not just free reed instruments that are affected by ceiling fans. I had a ceiling fan that beckoned a bat. Imagine the disappointment. Looking for love and finding something so completely unresponsive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Bradbury Posted April 28, 2005 Share Posted April 28, 2005 Smitten by love was it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caj Posted May 1, 2005 Share Posted May 1, 2005 Okay, so let's ask ourselves: what makes a concertina different from other instruments? One is that the sound projects out the sides of the instrument, and bounces off walls. Could that be the reason fans cause trouble? If so, you should get a similar effect with any other very directional instrument aimed away from you. Caj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted May 2, 2005 Share Posted May 2, 2005 Okay, so let's ask ourselves: what makes a concertina different from other instruments?One is that the sound projects out the sides of the instrument, and bounces off walls. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Eh? I haven't heard of this effect depending on the size or shape of the room, nor which way you're facing in the room. I suppose you could test that hypothesis, though, by placing two mandolin players back to back and turned sideways. What is different about concertinas is that the reed vibration which generates the sound depends on the difference in air pressure between the inside and outside of the instrument. And the fan blades do cause alternating pressure pulses in the (outside) air. If that's the cause, the presence of the walls shouldn't matter, and you should also get the effect from a fan (presumably not a "ceiling" fan ) on an outdoor patio. And if that's the cause, then stringed instruments shouldn't be affected, but concertinas, accordions, and harmonicas would be, and maybe clarinets and oboes, too. But there's also the fact that with rotating fan blades, sound alternates between being reflected off the blades and (between the blades) off the wall behind. If that's the cause, then stringed instruments should also be affected, but the effect should disappear if you move outdoors with your fan and concertina or mandolin. Anybody want to perform those indoor-outdoor tests? I would, but I don't have a fan. (Not much need, here in Denmark.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted May 2, 2005 Share Posted May 2, 2005 (edited) Anybody want to perform those indoor-outdoor tests? I would, but I don't have a fan. (Not much need, here in Denmark.)<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Likewise here Jim too, but I would be glad to carry out the tests; if somebody would like to pay my air fare to New Orleans ... Edited May 2, 2005 by Stephen Chambers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted May 2, 2005 Share Posted May 2, 2005 Anybody want to perform those indoor-outdoor tests? I would, but I don't have a fan. (Not much need, here in Denmark.)<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Likewise here Jim too, but I would be glad to carry out the tests; if somebody would like to pay my air fair to New Orleans ... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Maybe a university research grant? I once knew a fellow who claimed to have gotten a grant to study the mutation rates of the yeasts that grew under the mats on the bars in German pubs (Kneipen?). He'd have a couple of beers, take a scraping from under the mat, then go to the next pub... and do the same rounds every day. After a few weeks he had enough samples that he could look for changes over time. After half a year he had built up a sufficient statistical sample to demonstrate that measurable evolution was taking place, and he was able to renew the grant for a couple more years in order to track longer-term trends. Nice work if you can get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Evans Posted May 2, 2005 Author Share Posted May 2, 2005 (edited) What is different about concertinas is that the reed vibration which generates the sound depends on the difference in air pressure between the inside and outside of the instrument. And the fan blades do cause alternating pressure pulses in the (outside) air. If that's the cause, the presence of the walls shouldn't matter, and you should also get the effect from a fan (presumably not a "ceiling" fan ) on an outdoor patio. Well, Jim I like that and should I be asked why I want the fan off at a session will be able to say something besides "I dunno, just makes me box sound...all wonky". Thank you. Now if I could figure out why when I'm on me porch with a medium breeze blowing my penny whistle cranks right along, but if I switch to my low D whistle it's hard to get a note out at all. Your musing not withstanding, Stephen should look into a field study of the ceiling fan effect in New Orleans. One would in fairness have to expand the study sites to certain music clubs close to Lafeyette and a club I know of in Greun, Texas. A field study assistant would be a must. I have had a certain effection for the local brews Dixie and Bach Shiner and would be willing to serve. Perhaps the National Endowment for the Arts could fund such an important study . Edited May 2, 2005 by Mark Evans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted May 2, 2005 Share Posted May 2, 2005 Now if I could figure out why when I'm on me porch with a medium breeze blowing my penny whistle cranks right along, but if I switch to my low D whistle it's hard to get a note out at all.<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Two likely factors: .. 1) It's a general principle with wind instruments that production of lower notes involves a greater volume of air flow, but less pressure. Wind pressure being constant, it would then have a proportionally greater effect on lower notes. .. 2) But a smaller windway also tends to work at lower pressure, so if the mouthpiece on your low-D is proportionately narrower than on your high-D, that will have a similar effect. (E.g., my large-windway Copelands -- both high-D and low-D -- are more resistant to such wind effects than my high-D Generation, but the high-D Copeland is more resistant than the low-D.) .. 3) Not a third factor, but 1+2. Combining the two effects is, of course more effective than either one alone. One way to escape the effect of the wind, by the way, is to turn your back to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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