Do many players play more than one system?

[Don Taylor]

4 hours ago, RAc said:

 

I'm sure you are familiar with Kurt Braun's invaluable essay on inner and outer positions on the Crane.

Can you provide a link?  Kurt's web-site (scraggy.net) is gone and I cannot find his essay on the Wayback machine.

Don.

[RAc]

3 hours ago, Don Taylor said:

Can you provide a link?  Kurt's web-site (scraggy.net) is gone and I cannot find his essay on the Wayback machine.

Don.

It's still there:

 

Probably we should take this discussion off this thread in order not to highjack it, so I'd suggest reviving Kurt's thread for possible follow up questions on the topic of Crane fingering issues.

 

 

Edited December 15, 2018 by RAc

[saguaro_squeezer]

Hi RAc

Please take this with a large grain of salt, because I'm only discovering the differences for myself ...

 

Oh yes, I'm familiar with Kurt's essay.  And I've discovered the 4th finger's use for the Crane 4th. 

 

But if you play in the style that the Sallie Army book lays out and in keys that you mentioned (C, G and D), you only use the 4th finger, at the most, twice for C# and F# in D.  You can still pretty much stay on the 1st three fingers.

 

When I got the Maccann and started on scales, the fingering, for C at least, depends on the 4th finger for D and B and the fingering patterns for the instrument seem to need to include all 4 fingers as a matter of course as compared to the 3 fingers of the Crane.

 

Again, just an initial observation and me realizing that I'd better work on using that 4th finger more in my Crane playing as well!

 

  

[RAc]

16 hours ago, saguaro_squeezer said:

But if you play in the style that the Sallie Army book lays out and in keys that you mentioned (C, G and D), you only use the 4th finger, at the most, twice for C# and F# in D.  You can still pretty much stay on the 1st three fingers.

 

 

I'll take this into Kurt's thread mentioned above to keep this thread focussed on the original topic.

[Wolf Molkentin]

On 12/15/2018 at 6:26 PM, saguaro_squeezer said:

But if you play in the style that the Sallie Army book lays out and in keys that you mentioned (C, G and D), you only use the 4th finger, at the most, twice for C# and F# in D.  You can still pretty much stay on the 1st three fingers.

 

So you wouldn’t consider using the 4th finger for double stops (f.i. fifths, like with the EC, or rather fourths, to be expanded to sixths and eights, here) on the RHS (and twelths resp. spread triads on the LHS anyway)? That’s at least what I seem to be doing at the moment...

 

Best wishes - ?

[saguaro_squeezer]

18 hours ago, Wolf Molkentin said:

 

So you wouldn’t consider using the 4th finger for double stops (f.i. fifths, like with the EC, or rather fourths, to be expanded to sixths and eights, here) on the RHS (and twelths resp. spread triads on the LHS anyway)? That’s at least what I seem to be doing at the moment...

 

Best wishes - ?

Yes, of course ...  one would use whatever finger would be the most convenient for the needed notes.  That said, with the qualifier that I'm a brand-new Maccann play-(at)-er, it just seems that the Maccann requires much more use of all the fingers than the Crane.  It's probably just that I'm back to square one with the Maccann.

[Wolf Molkentin]

51 minutes ago, saguaro_squeezer said:

It's probably just that I'm back to square one with the Maccann.

 

Same as myself with the Crane... ?

 

(however, there are always certain skills that can be transferred I guess)

[Anglo-Irishman]

On 12/11/2018 at 4:21 PM, Rich C R said:

I play the EC but keep thinking about possibly taking up another system either Anglo or Duet - my head says its not a good idea, as it will detract perfecting the EC.

Hi, Rich,

I can understand your head - even though I'm an inveterate multi-instrumentalist myself.

My bellows-driven free-reed instrumets are Anglo concertina, Crane duet concertina and Bandoneon. I also play several fretted-string  instruments: 5-string banjo, mandolin, guitar and Waldzither.

Today, my main public-performance instruments are Anglo concertina and 5-string banjo. And interestingy, the Anglo was my first concertina, and I played it for years before I tried the Bandoneon, and then for many more years before I started the Crane.

Similar development with the fretted strings: I started on the banjo very early and played it for many years before taking up the guitar, and many more years before I took up the Waldzither.

(BTW, I find the analogy between the concertina types, on one hand, and the fretted-string instruments, on the other hand, rather more appropriate than concertinas compared with guitar tunings.)

 

What I'm saying is, adding an instrument is not in itself harmful, as long as you're really familiar with the first one. When you've attained the level of competence you're striving for, and can skip practice for a few days without losing that level, then you can turn your attention to a new instrument. In my experience, learning a different instrument can improve your playing of your first instrument, because your get new musical insights. Learning the Anglo or Duet may not do much for your basic EC playing, if you're a beginner; but if you're an advanced EC player, I'd expect that the Anglo or Duet would give you some musical ideas that might not occur to you if you stuck to (or were stuck to) the EC.

 

Cheers,

John

 

[RAc]

On 12/14/2018 at 12:12 PM, TedK said:

I've tried a little EC, but only play Anglo these days. I also play guitar, banjo and fiddle. 

...

As a guitarist I can't agree that there is an equivalence in switching between concertina types and switching between playing a guitar in standard tuning and  DADGAD, unless perhaps you are comparing 2 different type of Duet system. You have to learn different chord shapes and intervals between the strings, but the guitar doesn't start playing different notes depending on whether you pick up or down!

 

23 minutes ago, Anglo-Irishman said:

(BTW, I find the analogy between the concertina types, on one hand, and the fretted-string instruments, on the other hand, rather more appropriate than concertinas compared with guitar tunings.)

 

 

Again, I am NOT arguing from the point of view of playing techniques. I fully understand that a bisonoric squeezebox is a totally different beast to play than a unisonoric one.

 

My point is that to a listener, the net experience is practically the same regardless of what type of concertina (or to stick to the analogy what tuning the guitar is tuned to) produces the music. It's the same sound scape because the tone is generated the same in each case.

 

The question remains what one wishes to accomplish by playing different types of concertinas. I thought about the question too, and I decided that if I wanted to tackle the challenge of a bisonoric pneumatic instrument, I'd probably pick up a melodeon instead of an anglo concertina such that the sound scapes covered by the two a sufficiently different. If I wanted to explore new sound spheres, I'd pick up a completly different instrument such as a flute or a Nykelharpa. Another type of concertina to me would be like switching from a bicycle to a unicycle; both cover the same distance and don't get me any further even though they are quite different to ride.

 

But I'm not a missionary, this is just my attitude. Whatever people do with musical instruments to me is fine as long as it's fine for them!

[Wolf Molkentin]

2 hours ago, Anglo-Irishman said:

I find the analogy between the concertina types, on one hand, and the fretted-string instruments, on the other hand, rather more appropriate than concertinas compared with guitar tunings.)

 

If you're an advanced EC player, I'd expect that the Anglo or Duet would give you some musical ideas that might not occur to you if you stuck to (or were stuck to) the EC.

 

Agreed twice, John ?

 

Best wishes - ?

[rlgph]

On 12/20/2018 at 7:40 AM, RAc said:

 

My point is that to a listener, the net experience is practically the same regardless of what type of concertina (or to stick to the analogy what tuning the guitar is tuned to) produces the music. It's the same sound scape because the tone is generated the same in each case.

 

I agree.  And from this point of view drawing analogy to different stringed instruments doesn't work because the experience of listening to guitar music is different for the audience than that of a banjo or mandolin, for example.

[Wolf Molkentin]

On 12/20/2018 at 1:40 PM, RAc said:

The question remains what one wishes to accomplish by playing different types of concertinas.

 

As pointed out, every system migth be leading to different approaches and ideas - you can clearly hear that in my pair of recordings of two well-known Morris tunes I reckon, starting with the (newly taken up) Anglo and then transferred to the EC (already influenced by the Anglo take, but again different), as presented and discussed here.

 

Rüdiger - best wishes and season's greetings - ?

 

Edited December 21, 2018 by Wolf Molkentin

[RAc]

7 hours ago, Wolf Molkentin said:

 

Rüdiger - best wishes and season's greetings - ?

 

 

Same to you, Wolf, and of course everyone on the forum as well!

 

Thanks - R

 

[Anglo-Irishman]

7 hours ago, rlgph said:

drawing analogy to different stringed instruments doesn't work because the experience of listening to guitar music is different for the audience than that of a banjo or mandolin, for example

Interesting point!

So let's compare the concertina, not with stringed instruments in general, but with the banjo. I play them both, and believe me, the similarities - on an abstract, conceptual level - are striking.

A banjo is not just a banjo, just as a concertina is not just a concertina. There's the "regular banjo" with 5 strings, the 5th being shorter and higher than the others. Then there's the "plectrum banjo", which lacks the short 5th string. Then there's the tenor banjo, which is tuned in fifths, like a viola (or, in its Irish form, like a violin). Then there are the banjo-mandolin - strung like a mandolin - and the Banjulele - strung like a ukulele. And there's even (lowering his voice and crossing himself) the guitar-banjo - tuned like a guitar. All of these produce their sounds in the same way: the vibration of the strings is amplified by a menbrane, or drumskin. And, analogous to concertinas that have steel or brass reeds and wood or metal ends, the banjos can have steel or gut/nylon strings, and natural vellum or plastic heads. But a single note plucked on any of these instruments sounds much the same. The difference between steel/nylon string and natural/plastic head is imperceptible, except perhaps to an absolute expert. 

Just as a single note on any concertina sounds - more or less - the same. Here, too, the expert may discern steel or brass as the reed material, or wood or metal ends, but the layman hears a concertina.

With the banjo, the differences become apparent as soon as the instrument is played properly. The "regular" 5-string banjo - in classic style or bluegrass style - is played with the fingers, and the music is very "notey" because of the short sustain. The plectrum banjo is strummed, typically in a dixieland jazz band - a completely different experience for the listener. The tenor banjo can also be strummed, but it is most at home in Irish trad. dance music, where it is played melodically with a plectrum. Again, a different listening experience. The banjo-mandolin is played like a mandolin. If you're Italian, you'll play tremolo, if you're American, you'll play chops - but either way, it won't sound like a mandolin, it'll sound like a banjo. The banjolele is strummed or finger-picked, as you wish, like a uke.   

 

What I'm saying is, that the same sound-producing physics lend themselves to perceptaby different forms of musical expression, depending on the arrangement of the notes (tuning) on the  banjo. I believe that we can transfer this  conclusion to the concertinas. The EC seems to be oriented more towards melody, whereas the Anglo is more a harmony instrument.  The Duets are a departure in the direction of polyphony. Of course, an Anglo or a Duet can be played melodically, and harmonies can be played on an EC. But, if you give your concertina its head, it will take you in its own direction. We know the melodic but rather anaemic EC of Pauline de Snoo, the rumbustuous Anglo of Jody Kruskal, and the filigree classical Duet pieces of former Forum member Dirge - to name but a few.  I know for myself that I play different music on the Anglo and Crane - even when it's an arrangement of the same tune.

 

In the banjo world, the 5-string, plectrum, tenor, mandolin and ukulele banjos are regarded as different instruments. For me, personally, the definition of "different instruments" is that, having learnt one, you still  can't play the other. This principle applies to the different concertina systems. Even the Maccann , Crane, Jeffries and Hayden Duets are different instruments in this sense. Of the duets, I am familiar only with the Crane, but I can imagine that it is better at some things than the other duets, and not so good at other things.

 

What I do know is that an extempore arrangement of a familiar tune will come out slightly differently on my Anglo and Crane.  

 

Cheers,

John

[Wolf Molkentin]

1 hour ago, Anglo-Irishman said:

We know the melodic but rather anaemic EC of Pauline de Snoo

 

but who would deem her style exhausting the possibilities of the EC? nowhere near!

 

No offense John - shouldn’t we rather restrict our judgement to the instruments we actually play? I‘m speaking from experience here, having once pontificated about the Duet concertina with no hands-on experience at all back then - and I had to take the point which was easily brought up against my statement...

 

I agree re the Duet (with some personal experience now) but strongly dissent on viewing the EC as a „melody only“ instrument. It can certainly do that (and do it well), but it‘s providing sweet harmonies just the same (nevertheless different from the Duet in any respect).

 

best wishes - ?

[Anglo-Irishman]

13 hours ago, Wolf Molkentin said:

shouldn’t we rather restrict our judgement to the instruments we actually play?

Normally, yes, Wolf. But in this case, I was replying to rlgph, who was talking about the "listening experience" as such. And in the examples that one can listen to on this forum, there seems to be somewhat of a correlation between concertina type and the perceptible character of the music it typically produces - although the timbres of all British types of concertina are very much alike.

 

Of course, music is not made by musical instruments. It is made by people with musical instruments. Both player and instrument influence the result, to varying degrees. It's quite possible that a bumbustuous person might play rumbustuous music on the EC, for instance. But wouldn't it be more likely for a rumbustuous person to play a rumbustuous instrument, like the Anglo? 

 

Cheers,

John

[Wolf Molkentin]

1 hour ago, Anglo-Irishman said:

But wouldn't it be more likely for a rumbustuous person to play a rumbustuous instrument, like the Anglo? 

 

You mean, I‘ve found my instrument only very recently? ??

[Anglo-Irishman]

19 hours ago, Wolf Molkentin said:

You mean, I‘ve found my instrument only very recently?

Well, if you'd found an instrument that was really "yours" earlier, you wouldn't have been looking for one, and wouldn't have discovered the new one, would you?

Cheers,

John