Are You Particular About Choosing Either Sharp Or Flat Button (English

[seanc]

8 hours ago, David Barnert said:

[seanc]

In thinking a bit more..

 

I DO think my approach differs somewhat when I approach a song from learning by ear vs reading.

 

when playing w/o sheets I am much more focused on fingering choices. I am much more likely to pick the Eb vs D# if the next note is an F#.  Where if it was written in E, I would always play it as a D#.

 

In essence, playing, by ear, I tend to gravitate to what plays better. Or makes more sense from a practical aspect.

 

but then also, on the high end, I will always play those notes the same way, regardless of key..example a Bb and never the A#. 

 

Edited May 4 by seanc

[Little John]

16 hours ago, seanc said:

... a Bb and never the A#.

 

That's because you won't find an A# anywhere 😀. Likewise the Db someone mentioned earlier in this thread.

[RAc]

well, in all honesty...

 

who of those contributing to this thread can confidentially and reliably tell the difference between, say, a G# and an Ab in a given musical context? 

 

If you have a lifelong experience playing a microtonal instrument (say, a fiddle), I can see how that works. Yet call me a musical moron (I am sure I am) - after 40+ years of making music in some form on fixed-pitch instruments, I am not sure if I could identify the difference in practice - aside from maybe expressing some kind of vague feeling of something being "not quite the same."

 

To me it boils down to the question whether putting a lot of thought and practice time into questions like how and when to finger a G# instead of an Ab is really worth it or rather counter productive  - ie distracts one from focussing on "trivial" issues like playing a tune reliably right in time in the first place. I find it challenging enough to keep up with my repertoire of "simple and straightforward" tunes, in particular when it comes to speed (Scottish reels, for example, are bare survival at combat speed; unless I know a tune inside out, I am satisfied when I can play 80% of the notes without completly losing it). Things like ornamentation subleties or enharmonic variations are some sort of luxury in my book (then again, I've just been playing concertinas for around 12 years or so). 

 

So are all of you really that proficient with your tunes that it (in this case, incorporating microtonal exchanges between enharmonics) does make it an audible difference to your playing? I am sure that there are some here whose answer is a definite "yes,"  but my wild guess from being active in the music scene would be - not very many.

 

Thanks!

  

[seanc]

1 hour ago, Little John said:

 

That's because you won't find an A# anywhere 😀. Likewise the Db someone mentioned earlier in this thread.

Oops.. you are correct..

explains why I always play Bb and never A# then…

 

without the box under my fingers, I do get a little lost..

 

 

[David Barnert]

1 hour ago, RAc said:

well, in all honesty...

 

who of those contributing to this thread can confidentially and reliably tell the difference between, say, a G# and an Ab in a given musical context? 

 

I can.

 

I also play the cello and the recorder, both of which require precision intonation. The recorder, particularly, in its early music (pre-equal temperament) context, demands that major thirds be considerably flatter than equal-tempered major thirds, and it quickly becomes obvious when someone is playing the wrong kind of third. I even hear it on the concertina, when playing a major chord and wishing I could flatten the third just a little to make it a pure interval.

[seanc]

1 hour ago, David Barnert said:

 

I can.

 

I also play the cello and the recorder, both of which require precision intonation. The recorder, particularly, in its early music (pre-equal temperament) context, demands that major thirds be considerably flatter than equal-tempered major thirds, and it quickly becomes obvious when someone is playing the wrong kind of third. I even hear it on the concertina, when playing a major chord and wishing I could flatten the third just a little to make it a pure interval.

agreed.

when you hear just intonation, chords just sound right..  major and minor 3rds just take on a whole different tone. 
 

but when you get to 7th chords they take on a completely different sound/ tone from equal.

 

but… with just, you don’t have that portability of playing different keys from your base.

equal sounds equally good or bad in every key.. Just sounds amazing in its home key, then moves towards ugly .

 

 

[Paul_Hardy]

3 hours ago, RAc said:

So are all of you really that proficient with your tunes that it (in this case, incorporating microtonal exchanges between enharmonics) does make it an audible difference to your playing?

 

I estimate that probably 99% of English concertinas in use are tuned to Equal temperament, so there is absolutely zero  microtonal difference between G# and Ab etc. So the choice is just one of ergonomics, and minimizing brainpower in reading the dots. The sound is the same.

 

I happen to be in the maybe 1 or 2% who do have one concertina (out of 15) tuned in meantone temperament, where the G# and Ab are tuned differently. So there is a further factor of trying to use the enharmonic that is closer to the pure mathematical simple fraction of just tuning. When you are in this case, and try the two, it is acoustically obvious which is 'better'.

Edited May 5 by Paul_Hardy
clarity

[David Barnert]

52 minutes ago, seanc said:

equal sounds equally good or bad in every key.. Just sounds amazing in its home key, then moves towards ugly .

23 minutes ago, Paul_Hardy said:

I happen to be in the maybe 1 or 2% who do have one concertina (out of 15) tuned in meantone temperament, where the G# and Ab are tuned differently. So there is a further factor of trying to use the enharmonic that is closer to the pure mathematical simple fraction of just tuning. When you are in this case, and try the two, it is acoustically obvious which is 'better'.

 

So, Paul, is there a key (or keys) that don’t work on that instrument because of the presence of a “wolf” interval, or does the one (or few) differently tuned enharmonic pairs solve that issue?

[Little John]

1 hour ago, David Barnert said:

... is there a key (or keys) that don’t work on that instrument because of the presence of a “wolf” interval, or does the one (or few) differently tuned enharmonic pairs solve that issue?

 

An instrument with 12 buttons to the octave (e.g. Crane, Maccann) can play in 6 keys without encountering the wolf interval (and, to be honest, that's enough for me). An English concertina, with 14 buttons to the octave, can play in 8. 

[Little John]

5 hours ago, RAc said:

who of those contributing to this thread can confidentially and reliably tell the difference between, say, a G# and an Ab in a given musical context? 

 

There are two contexts: harmony and melody. Purely in a melodic setting many people wouldn't spot it. On my 1/5th comma tuned Crane I have an F# major arpeggio in one tune. I don't have an A# so have to use the Bb. As long as I separate the notes clearly it sounds OK, but if they overlap at all it sounds awful.

 

The problem really comes with harmony. I have one button with D# on the push and Eb on pull. The proper note sounds sweet, but Eb in a B major chord is excruciating, whilst D# in a C minor chord sounds off but not so painful.

 

5 hours ago, RAc said:

... whether putting a lot of thought and practice time into questions like how and when to finger a G# instead of an Ab is really worth it ...

 

I'm inclined to agree on this point. On an English concertina the value of having separate D#/Eb and G#/Ab is not  just that one can play in two additional keys with mean-tone tuning, but that the fingering pattern remains consistent for all 8 keys. Choosing, for example, to use the Eb button when playing in a sharp key destroys the natural pattern.

[Little John]

4 hours ago, David Barnert said:

playing a major chord and wishing I could flatten the third just a little to make it a pure interval.

 

You could have it tuned to mean tone 😀. Do you often (or even ever) play with more than two flats or three sharps?

[David Barnert]

16 hours ago, David Barnert said:

... is there a key (or keys) that don’t work on that instrument because of the presence of a “wolf” interval, or does the one (or few) differently tuned enharmonic pairs solve that issue?

15 hours ago, Little John said:

 

An instrument with 12 buttons to the octave (e.g. Crane, Maccann) can play in 6 keys without encountering the wolf interval (and, to be honest, that's enough for me). An English concertina, with 14 buttons to the octave, can play in 8. 

 

Thank you. That certainly answers the question.

 

19 hours ago, David Barnert said:

playing a major chord and wishing I could flatten the third just a little to make it a pure interval.

15 hours ago, Little John said:

You could have it tuned to mean tone 😀. Do you often (or even ever) play with more than two flats or three sharps?

 

Good point. No, I don’t. But realistically it’s unlikely I’ll ever do that.

[RAc]

21 hours ago, RAc said:

If you have a lifelong experience playing a microtonal instrument (say, a fiddle), I can see how that works.

 

19 hours ago, David Barnert said:

I can.

 

I also play the cello and the recorder, both of which require precision intonation.

Apologies, David, you were actually one of those I had in mind when I made the abve restriction... I should have added the two instruments on top of the fiddle... 😉

[David Barnert]

2 minutes ago, RAc said:

Apologies, David, you were actually one of those I had in mind when I made the abve restriction... I should have added the two instruments on top of the fiddle... 😉

 

No problem. Apology accepted. To be sure, I was a little uncomfortable responding as I did to your question because I generally have respect for your posts.

[David Barnert]

18 hours ago, Little John said:

You could have it tuned to mean tone 😀.

3 hours ago, David Barnert said:

But realistically it’s unlikely I’ll ever do that.

 

Thinking it over, it occurs to me that one reason I’m hesitant to do this is because on my 46-key Hayden (one Bb, one D#, no Eb or A# on each side) I often use the D# as an Eb (for instance in G minor) or the Bb as an A# (in B minor).

[Little John]

4 hours ago, David Barnert said:

I often use the D# as an Eb (for instance in G minor)

 

If the D# is the acting as the third in a C minor chord it doesn't sound that bad. For that reason on my second Crane (also 1/5th comma mean tone) I have all D#s and no Ebs. If (and I suspect this is unlikely) you were to use it at the root of an Eb major chord it would sound awful.

 

4 hours ago, David Barnert said:

or the Bb as an A# (in B minor).

 

So that would be the third in an F# major chord? It will sound awful. Somehow a sharp major third sounds much worse than a flat minor third. So there are two options if you wanted to explore MT tuning. Firstly accept the nasty sounding Bb (when it should be A#) as the occasional price to pay for a much better-sounding instrument overall. The second is to have that button as an anglo Bb/A#. But if your use of Bb far outweighs the use of A# probably best to go for the first option.

[Paul_Hardy]

On 5/5/2024 at 3:50 PM, David Barnert said:

So, Paul, is there a key (or keys) that don’t work on that instrument because of the presence of a “wolf” interval, or does the one (or few) differently tuned enharmonic pairs solve that issue?

 

It's fine in all the keys I'm likely to play in for folk music (up to three sharps , down to 2 flats). The wolf is a long way away from those. See https://pghardy.net/concertina/lachenal_27590/lachenal_27590.html for background.