Would You Want To Be A Professional ?

[bellowbelle]

(ADDED NOTE: This whole thing is NOT a quote...I am still figuring out some of the tricks of using the gadgets, here...sorry...but, I think it's all clear enough who said what. My new reply is in the bold italics. I promise I'll get smarter about this stuff!)

 

I'm not as good as my parakeets, yet -- I make mistakes, they don't...

Are you sure they don't?

They may just be more "professional", in not telling you when they make mistakes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You know, I'm not entirely sure. DO birds ever make mistakes in their songs? Hmm. I don't think so, but, I'm not sure! I have noticed, though, that if my parakeets really know a song and then I screw up at a part of it, they stop singing and just kinda look at me for a few seconds, waiting to get back on track. (They certainly are amazing little creatures.)

But being a professional musician isn't just about musical competence.  I think I might be a good enough performer to be a professional, but until I get the management side -- advertising, booking, etc. -- under control, it ain't gonna work.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Here's my text for my first ad:

 

NOW APPEARING AT A PET STORE NEAR YOU!!! STOP BY AND TWEET & CHIRP ALONG!!

(Really, though, pet stores make me too sad, with all those confined critters....prefer parks. Okay, well, there's seagulls at beaches....beaches, too, I guess.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Mark Evans]

Wendy, you are on to something here! I once had a coon dog (sweet beast) who would sing along whenever I pulled out my banjo. I fear I missed a real career opportunity.

[Helen]

Wendy,

 

Harp players have haloes.

 

Mark,

 

I am jealous. MY DOG howls when I play. It is not a good thing.

 

Helen

[JimLucas]

So far no responses from anyone claiming to be a professional.

Do we have none as C.net members?

[stuart estell]

So far no responses from anyone claiming to be a professional.

Do we have none as C.net members?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'd hazard a guess that they're too busy performing, practising, teaching and travelling!

[Mark Evans]

Helen, maybe Sweetbeast was howling. Sometimes I would have to send him away because of the volume. He would slink up into the apple orchard above the cottage and continue....ah..ooooh! I miss him.

 

Jim, define professional for us. Some of the members are most certainly doing paid gigs (regardless rate), teaching lessons, producing CDs ( Chris and his wife a wonderful example) involved in concerts series...etc.

[Robin Madge]

And I want to know if you can call yourself a smi-professional if you get paid for a gig but it still doesn't cover your expenses!

 

There was a workshop at Sidmouth one year that I missed but was told about, given by John Hayden I believe, on how to claim back income tax as expenses. All sorts of things could be offset against it that you wouldn't think of at first. Visiting any folk club was research, for a start.

 

Robin Madge

[bigsqueezergeezer]

There was a workshop at Sidmouth one year that I missed but was told about, given by John Hayden I believe, on how to claim back income tax as expenses. All sorts of things could be offset against it that you wouldn't think of at first. Visiting any folk club was research, for a start.

 

Robin Madge

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

A list of those would indeed be useful, just incase the Inland revenue tried to muscle in on the very few pounds that a part timer concertina player was likely to earn!

[Mark Evans]

Oh Goodie, we have turned to money matters (this will ruin my morning).

 

At least in the States you claim all your expenses (good tax advisor). For Dominique, her costs for travel et al are very high. It works out well.

 

Health care cost. When we both were chasing singing careers our family had to buy coverage on the open market. The last rate we were paying for a minimum coverage was...hold on ta yer knickers...$1000 a month! Our union here, AGMA offered a less appealing coverage for even more.

 

Most of my wife's colleagues live without it.

 

edit: Wendy, I just noticed your new avatar...beautiful!

Edited January 27, 2005 by Mark Evans

[geoffwright]

I have never pro on concertina but have on accordion - that tells on your elbows so you can imagine what playing concertina for hours a day feels like.

I ended up getting sick of the sight of the box and didn't touch it for months when I packed in and got a day job.

 

For the semi-pro, from a UK tax point of view, if you are being paid, it has to be declared and any expenses wholly concerned with that gig or the running of your music business can be offset. It desn't matter if you made a profit or not. You can also advertise without fear if you are not frightened of being spied on.

As far as the music business is concerned, music bought, adverts placed, my website, instruments bought, repairs to instruments, new strings, reeds, insurance, union dues, accountancy fees etc. can all be offset.

As far as a gig goes, transport costs including wear & tear/ depreciation/ fuel can be claimed at a set rate, accomodation etc can be offset etc.

Ever since I was investigated (and found clean) , I have dealt through an accountant just to make sure everything is done properly.

For more info, the Musicians Union website will help.

[Richard Morse]

So far no responses from anyone claiming to be a professional.

Do we have none as C.net members?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I guess I could claim that I was *once* a "professional" musician. During the 70's I sustained myself by gigging and teaching..... banjo (with a bit on the side from calligraphy). Then came getting serious about life - getting a day job. Getting into concertinas made getting a day job all that more important!

 

n my experience most of the full time professionals in Irish Music tend to be younger and tend to tour for maybe 5 or 10 years and then they end up settling down somewhere and getting a day job.

I know a lot of "professional musicians" who do contradance music and have kept at it for over 10 years. Some over 20 and 30 years....

[JimLucas]

Jim, define professional for us.

Absolutely not!

Alan started this thread, and for the duration of this discussion we should accept and use his definition: "play the concertina for a living".

 

As I understand it, Alan's topic is not the word "professional", but rather the pros and cons -- or perhaps simply the experience and quality -- of "playing the concertina" as one's primary means of support, a lifestyle which is commonly termed a "profession".

 

However, I would like -- with Alan's permission, I hope -- to expand the discussion to include those who don't depend on music for their primary support, but who do either derive at least 10% of their income or spend at least 10% of their time on income-producing musical activities. (The 10% figure is arbitrary, but it saves arguing over the "precise" meaning of expressions like "a significant amount", which would divert attention from the original subject.) Note that I'm also explicitly including non-concertina musical activities, as long as concertina is part of the mix.

 

Why do they do it?

How much time do they spend on income-producing music activities?

And what fraction of their income comes from music?

Would they like to do it more... or less?

What do they consider the positive aspects?

What do they consider the negative aspects?

What, if anything, do they do to maximize their income?

What, if anything, do they do to maximize their enjoyment/positive experience?

 

As for myself, the time percentage is currently higher than the income percentage, and both are currently in flux, the income percentage having passed 10% for the first time. Here are a few of my "rules":

... I have a minimum fee, at least when being hired by strangers.

... I avoid smokey gigs like the plague they are.

...... Aside from the long-term health risks, I find that a smokey atmosphere can give me a headache and sore throat that lasts for days. Simply not worth it.

... I do not provide a sound system.

...... Aside from the expense, which would effectively reduce my income, I feel that any profit-making venue that doesn't have its own sound system isn't giving serious attention or respect to the music.

...... For small gigs -- e.g., a birthday party, or even a small cafe -- I neither need nor want a sound system. I can both sing and play loud enough to be heard without one, and it's presence would interfere both physically and musicaly.

...... If my performing were to reach a level of 50% or more of my income, I might change my policy here. I do know that some groups carry their own sound system to eliminate the difficulties which can arise from having to adjust to unfamiliar setups. (I would still prefer to do without for small venues.)

... I perform what I enjoy.

...... If the audience doesn't like what I do, then I consider the fault to be with the booking, not with either my performance or their taste, and I won't seek to repeat the booking.

...... Put another way, my purpose in performing is to share my enjoyment of music with others who also appreciate it. If they don't enjoy my performance, then I shouldn't be performing for them. It is not my purpose to change either their tastes or my own.

 

I am not supporting myself from my music, though I am gradually getting closer to that "ideal". If it happens, it will be when I discover that my music is producing enough income for me to live on (with a reasonable excess to guard against emergencies), not from deciding that it will be my profession and then forcing myself to survive on the result. I believe it's possible to be a music "professional" and still enjoy music, but I don't think there's any guarantee, not even for someone who believes in it, like me.

(Who said, "faith-based professionalism"?! )

[JimLucas]

Regarding taxes, each country has its own rules. Here in Denmark, I can deduct musical expenses up to the amount I make on music, totalled over the year, but I can't take an accumulated loss on the music and use it reduce my taxable income from computer work. And what I recall from America was that one could deduct a loss on an income-producing activity, but only for a limited number of years. In other words, if it didn't show a long-term profit, it was not considered a legitimate business, so one could no longer deduct "business" expenses. (Funny how one pays business taxes on what's left after expenses to keep the business alive, but one must try to pay personal living expenses on what's left after paying taxes. Ah, but that's really a different Topic.)

 

Denmark has pretty comprehensive universal health care, so that's not the issue it is in The States. Many other detailed differences, but that would be a major digression from the original subject.

[bill_mchale]

In my experience most of the full time professionals in Irish Music tend to be younger and tend to tour for maybe 5 or 10 years and then they end up settling down somewhere and getting a day job.

So how many non-musicians stay with the same job for that long? I haven't always been a computer programmer, but after 25 years of it -- with several different firms -- I'd really like to do something different. Maybe even become a professional musician.

 

But keep in mind Jim, that we are not talking about changing jobs, but changing careers. Perhaps you would like to change your career after 25 years, but how many people actually completely change their careers? Far more likely they shift their career to emphasize a different aspect.. I.e. computer programmers become IT managers, etc.

 

...I bet there are fewer than 50 Irish musicians in the world who make their living exclusively from playing or teaching music for their entire careers.

Still, 50 would be 10 times Jim Besser's estimate of "maybe five, worldwide", and he only specified that they "make a living at it", not that they do so for their entire life. I wonder if the average performing lifetime of concertina players is any less or greater than that of aspiring rock musicians, singer-songwriters, or even actors.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh, I am sorry, I didn't mean 50 concertina players, I meant 50 Irish musicians total. I guess Noel Hill might make his living exclusively from concertina playing; I would be suprised if anyone else does.

 

--

Bill

[OLDNICKILBY]

Perhaps we should be thinking more about how our Society treats its Musicians,Singers and Performers.I have been a Folky for the best part of 45 years and helped to run a Club for quite a few of these wonderful years.

I can think of many superb, talented, wonderful people who barely

scraped a meagre living,who had appalling treatment from the taxation people

[well they must be making a fortune ,they drive around in beat up old cars] and equally exploitative treatment from Club Organizers and Promoters. I have seen it from the other side as well, there aint nothing better than to be on Stage,perform well and have some good comments at the end of an evening

When I see the assistance and grant aid some forms of Music get I can feel my blood starting to boil

We have been on tour [thats the group I sing with] for a month at a time, it was fantastic,but it was equally wonderful to be at Home or the Garden or even back at Work.The stress was orrible, the driving foul,the gigs great ,the people nothing short of Magic,but we could not do it for a living.For fun Oh Yes,

I was in London at the weekend and went to see one of my favouriteSingers and Tina Players,he gave me a lift back to my Hotel and expected to be back home for about 4 A M. Sorry cant do that.

[Mark Evans]

 

When I see the assistance and grant aid some forms of Music get I can feel my blood starting to boil.

 

I agree. Foolishly I assumed funding would be a bit more balanced in England. My experience here (and I have benefited from it) is that established main line orchestras, opera and ballet companies are (forgive my southern "izm") the hogs in the trough. They are given much, spend lavishly and waste outrageously all in the name of Culture.

 

Any group outside the mainstream is lucky if they manage to pick up a bit of the "corn" that has been sloshed over the sides during the feeding frenzy. Pitty, for in my opinion they are usually doing the more interesting work without regard to genre.

 

The bit about club owners and that whole scene...well. It's how it mostly gets done here. Just now I've agreed to be in a "band" again (6 months or so of knocking about). We are all old geezers (recovering "professionals") and just do it to fill that artistic need. The money...an insult if you let it be. After all I would do it for free because the other guys are now my friends and people who like us come to see us. Make a living at it? No never.

[Greg Jowaisas]

I've made the majority of my income through playing folk music the past 30 years. I'll offer a few opinions born from personal experience. I do not pretend to be an authority. Perhaps it will lend some insight and perspective. Here is one person's story:

 

I started late in learning an instrument. At 16 I tried to learn 5-string banjo and did many of the basic rhythms "wrong" for the first whole year.

Lacking talent but with no shortage of perseverence I went back and relearned how to play the banjo my second year on the instrument. College and a guitar and a year of teaching elementary school followed. Playing informally at coffeehouses, festivals and dances fed dreams of being a full time musician where "practice time would be unlimited" and "adoring audiences" would listen to every note.

 

Well, some of that happened. I cut my expenses to practically zero. (Lived in a basement apartment for $35 dollars a month and showered in the granitine sink!)

I taught lessons, played a few weekly gigs and practiced my fingers off, sometimes eight hours a day. Summers I painted houses with a crew of friends for extra income. Later I helped form an old-time band that played as many as three bar or restaurant jobs a week. We made a record (in 1979 there were only records and cassettes!) We had a difficult time cracking the festival market. As a solo performer I had discovered that a multi-instrumentalist could find work in public and private schools. I was playing dulcimer, autoharp, hammered dulcimer, and a bit of english concertina by then. The band, as bands do, broke up, I had a divorce and co-custody of my five year old son. (Life is what happens while you are making plans!)

 

I pushed my promotion of school programs hard and combined with playing a variety of gigs including clubs, bars, senior centers, scout groups, festivals and giving lessons and through record sales I was able to make a decent living for the next twenty years.

 

In the meantime i rehabbed an old ramshackle house, remarried, raised the son and then had a daughter by the second marriage.

 

I opened for the great Tom Paxton one time. Tom and I took in a baseball game prior to our concert and were talking "shop". When I expressed an interest in touring nationally Tom commented, "Now you tell me you are making a decent living playing lots of regional schools and can still eat with your family most evenings and sleep in your own bed at night? There are many in our line of work that would love to be in your position!"

 

About eight years ago I began to experience the osteoarthritis that runs in my family. My hands were very painful to the point that I stopped practicing and only played for jobs. Fortunately I tried glucosamine/chondritin suppliments and they helped the arthritis immensly and it became fun to play and practice again.

 

The last five years have seen the school market change. It is much more competitive. With unfunded federal mandates there is less available money and time for "Arts" programs. Like many 54 year olds I am facing another "career and mid-life challenge.

 

During the first ten years of these adventures there was no health insurance. It took me nearly a year to pay off one visit to the emergency room. The second wife, God bless her 100 Xs over has always been supportive of my career and has, through her job, provided health care the past twenty years.

 

I have had the pleasure of playing on a festival stage for thousands of appreciative people and had the dispare of playing a noisy, dangerous bar where I wished for the protection of a wire cage. I've had kindergartners spontaneously get up and dance to the banjo or concertina and teenagers talk through an entire performance.

 

Would I have done things differently? Hmm! I'm really too busy working on the next chapter of this adventure to look back for very long.

 

Couple of thoughts from two professional musicians that I have admired over the years: Folksinger Michael Cooney reminded us that "Fame doesn't look good on anyone." And while Pete Seeger in his "Sing Out" columns would point out the negatives of his profession like unreliable income, too much travel and separation from family, poor food and accomedations he'd just as quickly recommend that folks with some talent should try the life of a professional musician: "But the things you'll see! The people and places, and most of all, the warm feeling that you've raised somebody's spirits and helped them 'keep on keeping on'. Go to it."

 

To which I'll add, you can do a lot of this and still keep your day job! Now, if we could only make more time in the day for practice....

 

But if you love to play and perform, if you can take the financial privation and the rigours of travel, if you can solve the health care riddle, then...Go to it!

 

Regards, Greg

[Alan Day]

Greg,I would like to thank you for your personal insight into the professional world,I actually found it quite moving, although I doubt if you would have expected that.I suppose really it mirrors those of us who start our own businesses,having been made redundant, it was an option I took about twenty five years ago and I am still in business, but we all have hard knocks along the way.It is all a big gamble either it works or it does not and many times it does not just depend on hard work,luck has got a lot to do with it.How do you know for example that a company that you are working for will not go out of business, or disappear owing you thousands (it has happened to me).On the other hand you may hit the jackpot and they do come your way, if you have your own business.

I must admit to lying about being a professional,after making a couple of records and two Cds there is about a five million to one chance one of the tracks could be used say on an advert.A quick burst on the circuit and retire I would not say no to that.

I do think however good and careful bookeeping is vital either in business or on the road as a semi or full time professional.You are guilty and you have to prove to the taxman your innocence. Massive tax bills are many times as a result of not keeping a record or expenses.You have to prove where you get the money from and how much it cost you to do it.This is another subject and I will stop here, but please heed the warning.I prefer to do it for nothing or just expenses and enjoy it,rather than worry about someone catching up with me in the future.

Good luck Greg and thanks again

Al

Edited January 27, 2005 by Alan Day