JimLucas Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 ....up as far as 442 for added brightness.... but any further than that and some disquietitude will start to creep in when playing with other instruments that are at 440. As with so many things, perceptions may vary. I remember one country dance night when I brought my new concertina to play along in the band as usual, but the fiddler (a classical violinist) quickly and firmly told me to stop... because I was out of tune. I myself couldn't hear any dissonance, but I later checked and found that my concertina was tuned to A=441. Ouch! FWIW, no one else in any other situation ever complained about that concertina. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglo-Irishman Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Yes, "Concert pitch" is a funny thing. Obviously, it's absolutely essential if several or many instruments are to make music together, otherwise harmonies and unisons would be impossible to achieve. But on the other hand, the "official", absolute concert pitch for large orchestras playing academic music has varied over the years and centuries from about A=435Hz to about A=444Hz (or even more) since the Baroque period. The main thing was that all the members of an orchestra tuned to the same pitch. In the Classical period, I've read, there were even different "official" concert pitches in the different musical capitals in Europe, and when Beethoven arrived for the final rehearsal of his 1st piano concerto, he found the piano tuned exactly a semitone below the pitch the orchestra was using. (So he transposed the piano part of his concerto in C major to C# major on the fly!) Must have been a French piano tuner working in Vienna, or something! One reason for the modern "inflation" of concert pitch was given me by my late son-in-law, an orchestral hornist. As he saw it, the trend came from the string players, whose instruments sounded "better" at a higher pitch. This means that quasi fixed-pitch instruments (those with only limited tuning ranges) like oboes, clarinets and the brass, have to have new instruments built to the current pitch (whereas, ironically, the string players could retune by any reasonable amount at any time). So the official concert pitch becomes cemented for a while. Does the absolute pitch matter, as long as all members of an ensemble are using the same one? Some say, yes, and point out how pleasing Bach sounds played at the "mystical" pitch of A=435. However, they forget that orchestras that use this historical pitch also use historical or reproduction instruments, with the string section using gut strings, the brass and horns using natural trumpets and hunting horns, and the woodwind playing wooden flutes and keyless oboes. So the importance of a standard pitch lies merely in coordinating the tunings of the orchestral instruments, and is more or less arbitrary. In informal settings, where a violinist and a singer join up with a pianist in a venue that has an old, detuned piano, the violinist tunes to the piano (and Herz be damned!) and the singer adapts instinctively. However, if the piano is seriously detuned, and a flautist joins in, there are problems when he reaches the end of his tuning slide! (I've witnessed this happening!) So sometimes concert pitch is relevant, and sometimes not. If we have a folk group with fiddles, guitars, mandolins, harps, zithers, double basses, and then one fixed-pitch instrument - say, a concertina - joins in, the others just tune to that, whatever pitch it's in. Easy. In an orchestral setting, with various brass and woodwind instruments, the quasi-fixed-pitch instruments must all be built to the "official" pitch (though perhaps a difference of a couple of Herz can be accommodated - any wind players like to comment?) So just as official concert pitch was different in each epoch, and formerly in each city, it now seems to be different in each musical sub-culture. The classical orchestras are under pressure from the predominant string players to go higher, whereas the folk musicians - using the same A=440 concert pitch that was usual for much of the 20th century - are stabilised by the predominance of fixed-pitch instruments like bagpipes, flutes, accordions and concertinas. It therefore comes as no surprise that CBAs may be tuned to A=442 or 444, because they are the free-reeders that are most likely to have to do with orchestral music; whereas the melodions are still in 440, because they are mostly used in folk contexts - as, of course, are the concertinas. Just some musings - hope they make sense! Cheers, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdms Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 I think you're all overlooking the obvious: the accordion manufacturers got so tired of hearing the phrase "Why, for two cents I'd..." that they finally snapped and gave two cents to everyone. No idea why they were hearing the phrase so much, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Edgley Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 I know this is a free reed forum, but I couldn't help comparing what has been described above, to Highland Bagpipes over the last 100 years. They used to be pitched in A (440). In fact the music is still written in A. Then the creep upwards. In the 1960s it was very close to Bb (466). During the last 30 years it has gone from about 474 to 480. Some bands are using pipe chanters in the mid 480s. Usually, every piper in the band has a chanter pitched the same so the effect within the band is not chaos. The intention is similar to what I have read in this thread.....to make the instrument stand out by being clearer and brighter. The main benficiaries are the makers who are kept busy making new chanters for bands trying to keep up. Personally, I am against the tendency for any musical instrument to be involved in "pitch creep." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Molkentin Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 (edited) On 9/10/2014 at 8:30 AM, ceemonster said: [[[so, I come back to this little CBA, which I have just peered Inside of, it has only two reeds per melody note....switchable for one or both reeds going.... the One reed voice is consistently + 17 cents sharp ... I assume the Wet reed is sharper.]]] remember when i said there is a trend to drier? 440 is the "modern" trend. that is more "tasteful" tuning. 442 is "old-style," though not the really THICK old style.... well, if you don't like your 17 cents, you could have it cut it in half, to 8-ish. I personally love the 6-8 cents range. still a tremolo there, but light. old thread - however it seems appropriate to mention that these ominous 17 % were apparently not part of the tremolo or wet tuning, just the offset of the single voice - combing this with the request as to the outcome of this affair: did you have the instrument retuned, Geoff? Best wishes - ? Edited February 13, 2019 by Wolf Molkentin grammar :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted February 13, 2019 Author Share Posted February 13, 2019 (edited) 59 minutes ago, Wolf Molkentin said: combing this with the request as to the outcome of this affair: did you have the instrument retuned, Geoff? Best wishes - ? Hello Wolf, well, the 444hz. accordion went back to the shop and the owner sold me a new box that he tuned down to 440hz. from the 442hz. that it came in from the manufacturer. Quite a few chromatic button accordions have come and gone since then and I now play a small Italian 5 row/96 bass made in Castelfidaro which was 440hz from new. I also have several vintage models with 'diapason' from 435 to 440hz. but have , so far, avoided those boxes tuned above 440. France is full of secondhand accordions at reasonable prices but it is a minefield where 'Quel diapason ?' has to be my first question... which can in itself be too much for someone selling grandfather's old squeeze box. Edited February 13, 2019 by Geoff Wooff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudchutney Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 Sadly I find in some of my local sessions there are either badly tuned instruments or badly tuned ears on the players so the actual instrument tuning is the least of my worries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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