newbie & want to learn concertina

[halimium]

Hi. I already play guitar/can read sheet music but I do want to now also learn concertina for solo and accompeniment and just jamming with friends, I think anglo would be best for me.?

So I have a few questions.

I have been looking into buying but i have maximum £200 only so any recommendations for around that price?

I am lefthanded does this matter? as lefthanded guitars are harder to come by

my local music shop tried to sell me an old piano concertina 6white keys 4black keys but after researching it I did not buy it,they are not good right?

thanks.

[malcolmbebb]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

 

Concertinas are not cheap instruments and cheap concertinas can be frustrating to learn on. But some do. There are a number of existing threads on the forum, as you might imagine.

 

Do you know what sort of music you want to play?

 

Decision of Anglo or English is personal, already well covered if you search around a bit. On Anglo each button has a different note on the pull and the push, natural once you get used to it but again individual.

 

The standard advice for Anglo might be to look out for a used Concertina Connections Rochelle, they seem to go for around £200 on Fleabay at the moment and are reasonably likely to be in good shape because they haven't been around that long. New, they are around £400 at the Music Room. They are fairly bulky but have a standard layout, good tone, and good playability and have 30 buttons. And at around £200, resellable. You could ask here, of course.

 

A 30 button concertina is usually recommended but you can get a long way with a 20 button if one comes along at the right price. The basic layout is the same, the extra notes give you more keys and a few more useful options.

Boxes in this price range will almost invariably be in C and G.

 

Others will, I'm sure, add comments on some of the other lower cost boxes.

 

I don't know about left handed. I can't see it being a problem unless you are "one-handed"! I'm right handed but use my left hand a lot, you use both extensively on a concertina. I have not heard of a left handed concertina.

 

Piano accordions are, relatively, much cheaper than concertinas but the one you describe sound like a toy. Some have used them for learning but I wouldn't recommend it.

 

Good luck.

 

Malcolm

[MatthewVanitas]

What leads you to reckon Anglo might be best? It certainly might be, but if you can elaborate on that for a moment that might help folks understand where your musical interests lie. Anglo concertina is kind of like two harmonicas with bellows attached, with the same change of pitch and on "breathing in and breathing out" so a lot of chords/harmonies come really naturally. 20-button concertinas only fully cover two different keys at a time (which is why you see them labeled "C/G" or similar), while a 30-button Anglo gets you more chromatic notes and alternate fingerings. English is played very differently, with the same note on push and pull and (generally) an ability to play in all keys. Just my feel, but I've had a much easier time doing basic chording and harmonised melody on Anglo, but have found English a lot faster for doing sharp melody work (playing fiddle parts, etc).

 

Definitely spend some time on YouTube glancing at clips of those two types, maybe even find some "tutorial" videos where people show some beginner's lessons. After watching some of that you might end up with a much better idea of which is best for you, and that may well be Anglo.

 

 

So far as what to buy: Concertina Connection does make really solid boxes for the price (I own their "Elise" duet model), but if cash is tight and you're just feeling this out, there are some less-expensive boxes that aren't total junk. I've owned several Stagi/Bastari Anglos that are a bit clumsy and slow (and a bit big), but were decently in-tune, playable action, etc. You can research some more names on the forum here, but generally Stagi (formerly Bastari) makes decent stuff; some of their boxes were also sold in the UK as "Gremlin". I've messed with a few of the cheaper Italian names as well, and though I wouldn't necessarily recommend those I've had some good luck with them being in tune but just needing basic fixes (see below). There are some cheapie Germans you see on eBay a lot (Scholer mainly) but I don't know those so well and they don't have the best rep. Mainly you really want to avoid buying any no-name/generic-name Chinese concertinas. Basically any brand-new <U£800 concertina that isn't Stagi or Concertina Connection is probably not a good idea, so beware of Italian or English-sounding names just slapped onto cheap Chinese boxes; if you can't find good reviews of a given brand-name here on the forum, I wouldn't buy the box.

 

One caveat on the Italian boxes: if you get a notably older one, a common problem is that the little rubber linkages on the arms dry up and crumble over time. These are relatively easily replaced with £5 worth of silicone tubing, as detailed in this article: http://www.concertina.net/gs_stagirepair.html . You can often ID this problem in eBay photos by noting crooked buttons, or buttons that have fallen down inside the body. If the reeds and bellows are fine, and the buttons are the only issue, I'd buy one if it were cheap enough (like £40).

 

 

In sum up: watch a bunch of YouTube clips of concertists you enjoy, and after that you should come to a definite opinion as to whether Anglo or English appeals to you. Agree with Malcom that CC has the solid rep for starter boxes these days, but if that's just out of your range a decent Stagi/Bastari can serve as a beater at very reasonable price.

Edited June 17, 2012 by MatthewVanitas

[AnnC]

Hello I can't add anything extra to the advice about choosing a concertina except to try as many different ones as you can before you buy and if you know an experienced player take them with you when you're shopping to (hopefully) spot any major faults, especially in 2nd hand instruments.

 

 

Whereabouts in England are you? If you want to meet other concertina players and chat about the different makes the International Concertina Association have regional groups or if that sounds a bit formal then your local folk club or morris side might know of concertina players near you

[Johanna]

A thought, possibly the wrong one:

 

If money is really that tight, are you sure the concertina is the right instrument for you? Rochelles, Jackies, Elises, and Stagi/Bastaris are fine as they go for getting started, but if you decide as you progress that you want to get serious about the concertina, there's a good chance you'll want to upgrade. And as has been mentioned, good concertinas get very expensive very quickly.

 

It's one thing to not want to spend too much on your first concertina before you know whether you like it or not. A lot of us started on inexpensive boxes and have no regrets. But if you can't see yourself ever wanting to spend much more than £200 on a concertina (and I realize that's not what you said), you might be better off picking a different instrument from the start.

[spindizzy]

Basically any brand-new <U£8000 concertina that isn't Stagi or Concertina Connection is probably not a good idea,

 

 

 

I really hope that you typed an extra zero there!

 

 

[Geoff Wooff]

This talk of starting on a £200 instrument reminds me of a line from a film that was on TV last week;

 

The film; Mirrormask.

 

The pertinent line "Oh, yes, the Rich.. they can eat fish,drink hot chocolate and learn to play the Concertina!"

Edited June 17, 2012 by Geoff Wooff

[MatthewVanitas]

A thought, possibly the wrong one:

...A lot of us started on inexpensive boxes and have no regrets. But if you can't see yourself ever wanting to spend much more than £200 on a concertina (and I realize that's not what you said), you might be better off picking a different instrument from the start.

 

Speaking not as a concertina expert (which I certainly am not), but on a more conceptual level from someone who's done a good smattering of fixing and dealing in beaters, music education, helping young folks find their first instrument etc: as a general rule I take some exception to the argument that you shouldn't start if you can't buy the best.

 

I've seen this in a number of (but by no means all) instrument communities. I was particularly baffled by folks on BanjoHangout who told a young noob who was "kinda considering learning clawhammer" that he should start saving up $1000ish to commission a custom from "John Smith" of East Authenticityville, Alabama, and that there was no point starting with anything less. Plenty of the most famous clawhammer pickers of history started out with either some Sears Roebuck mail-order piece likely no better than a 1970s Korean import off eBay, or some homemade jobby assembled with hand tools and something less than a skilled luthier's touch.

 

So far as concertinas and other squeezeboxes, I'd be happy to be corrected here, but haven't legions of German peasants, Argentine dockworkers, British (and Zulu) miners, and all other sorts made plenty of great squeezebox music on cranked-out German concertinas (back when Germans made all kinds of junk) that probably were notably worse than what a Stagi is today? I'd venture to guess that most of those blue-collar folks weren't playing Wheatstones at their payscale. Yes, I'm sure their boxes were inferior, and that's probably why we don't see many of them in use today since they weren't made to last a century, or used such non-standardised parts that there's no practical way to fix them down the road. But regardless, it's a way to make music.

 

To the questioner, I'd submit that a used Stagi (or equivalent) that at least functions basically is something you can feel out and enjoy. If you don't end up liking it, you can sell it for what you paid for it if you got a good deal. If you like it, you can start saving up for a better one, and watching the forum sales listings, specialty shops, etc. for a good used (or vintage) concertina in your price-range. Yes, £1000 would be a lot to start out on if you're on a budget, but a few years down the road if you've gotten skilled at Anglo it might not sound so bad. People, even not-rich folks, buy motorbikes and high-end stereo gear for far more than that.

 

So my basic argument is that a lot of folks have started on beaters, ideally one not so rough that it'll frustrate you on the instrument. Plenty of folks in history have stuck with and made music on far rougher instruments, and many played far better than I. And thanks to modern tools and reeds, a quality concertina, while pricey, is by no means outrageous for someone who's taken a real shine to the instrument after playing a beater for a while.

[Johanna]

as a general rule I take some exception to the argument that you shouldn't start if you can't buy the best.

Please point out where I made this argument. You must be reading a different post than the one I wrote.

[Jody Kruskal]

as a general rule I take some exception to the argument that you shouldn't start if you can't buy the best.

Please point out where I made this argument. You must be reading a different post than the one I wrote.

That always happens, just move on.

[michael sam wild]

I agree with the comment that the old German made instruments were the basis of a lot of folk music. Many a good tune played on an old squeezebox, whether melodeon or concertina. You can always sell them on and move on up.

[halimium]

Thanks for the replies, so I'm thinking now maybe English would be better for me to learn on?

 

I mostly like to play classical guitar, so I think I could play some of those tunes I already know on an English concertina...

 

but also I like to play and just jam over chord progressions with friends which makes me think anglo as I can play harmonica as well..

 

[halimium]

 

This was the type of one for sale in the local music shop...

[Anglo-Irishman]

That always happens, just move on.

 

Quite!

 

I think what almost anyone can agree upon is that a beginner should have the best instrument he or she can afford.

If there's nothing - neither new nor used - at your budget, perhaps you could borrow a decent instrument, at least for a start. If you soon realise that this is the instrument for you, you'll be surprised how quickly your budget grows!

Budgeting is always a matter of priorities, and a vague notion that you might like to try playing the concertina doesn't have a very high priority. The realisation that this is the musical instrument you've been waiting for all your life, and that it will open up artistic, social, even financial doors, gets a much higher priority. Subtract your present age from the average life expectancy, and you'll know how much time you have to recoup the investment on a good instrument!

 

Admittedly, the concertina is a more expensive instrument than others to get started on. Stringed instruments are much more common, and used ones are almost thrown away. An old, battered guitar, as long as it's not noticeably warped, can sound pretty good with a new set of strings costing a few Euros. You'll soon know if you can justify a new one, and you'll know what to look out for when buying it.

 

Old, beaten-up concertinas are cheap, too, but unfortunately six new strings are not enough to get them usable again. 30 buttons means 30 pads that are potentially leaky, and 60 reeds that may be out of tune - quite apart from all those bellows corners that may need patching! In view of this, I would advise a beginner to start with a cheap, new concertina. At least it will be in tune - or if not, you can exchange it for one that is. Or, possibly, a young, used cheap one that someone has bought, only to realise after an hour or two that it's not their thing.

 

Hope this helps,

Cheers,

John

[malcolmbebb]

Thanks for the replies, so I'm thinking now maybe English would be better for me to learn on?

 

I mostly like to play classical guitar, so I think I could play some of those tunes I already know on an English concertina...

 

but also I like to play and just jam over chord progressions with friends which makes me think anglo as I can play harmonica as well..

 

It can be a hard choice when you start. Since you play harmonica, you shouldn't find Anglo too wierd but if you need more notes or a chromatic instrument that might pull you in another direction. I think people have a natural bias to push you towards the system with which they are comfortable . As suggested above, finding other players (almost invariably helpful) and maybe borrowing a box or two would be a good start.

There are clubs, too. Can't remember if you said where in the country you are.

 

Very broadly, the cheap old boxes mentioned above would be the same to play as an Anglo. Getting cheap English boxes is harder, I believe. There are some newer models but there won't be the range of cheaper "beaters".

 

If you do decide to get a really cheap old "beater" to try on, you now know where to come for advice on what to look for. A cheap clunky working one may get you off the ground, but a cheap clunky faulty or bad one could put you off.

 

Malcolm

Edited June 18, 2012 by malcolmbebb

[malcolmbebb]

my local music shop tried to sell me an old piano concertina 6white keys 4black keys but after researching it I did not buy it,they are not good right?

thanks.

 

Is that the one in the photo? Not seen one like it before. It is a concertina but looks like a special. The button layout is basically Anglo, but it looks like a chromatic scale.

 

Probably not a beginners' box

 

Total digression, but do you have a photo of the other side?

[halimium]

Yes the pics they sent me.

 

.

 

I am from Herts England

Edited June 18, 2012 by halimium

[chris]

It looks like a Jedcertina - laid out like a piano - don't think they ever came to much

have a look at www.concertinamuseum.com/CM00308b.htm for a bit more info

chris