guide for very new beginner

[Jim Besser]

OK guys, you got me, I'll go for a Rochelle or better After all, I desserve it

Now I see a Rochelle to sell in France, but it looks like it is still cheaper to import it from USA with the high shipping fees than to get it in France with inland fees .

Then, does anyone know how it goes with taxes? I know that if I import it to Norway I will get 25% more to pay in taxes, but not sure about what happens if I import it to France... Anyone how knows?

 

By the way Leo, I do read music, I sing in a chorus and play the guitar (+ others just for fun). Not much time for that with small kids but it is getting better and better, and in some years... I am interested in different kinds of music, from ABBA to Irish Blessing

 

The criticisms of Rochelles are justified; it's not an instrument you will want to keep if you become serious about concertina. If you plan to play fast music - ie fast Irish reels and jigs - it will hold you back after a while.

 

But if you have less than $500 US to spend, in my view it's the only option that assures you a moderately playable starter instrument. You can buy a cheaper Ebay knockoff that's essential unplayable right out of the box, or that will fall apart after a few uses.

 

If you progress to the next level, but don't have enough money for a serious vintage instrument or a modern, concertina-reeded one, your choice is between a modern hybrid, with accordion reeds, or a low-end vintage box, like a relatively inexpensive Lachenal. Here the choice becomes more difficult. The good hybrid will assure you of an excellent, reliable, fast mechanism. But it won't sound like a concertina. That's important to some people, myself included, but if your budget is limited, there's a clear tradeoff: reliability and guaranteed playability vs. traditional sound. I have an 8 year old Morse hybrid that has stood up to abusive (ie Morris dance) playing and has never been opened up for repairs; I have a vintage Lachenal with a wonderful sound that requires constant service. I prefer the Lach because I prefer the sound, but understand why many would prefer the Morse.

 

 

[malcolmbebb]

I have to say that, were it not for the Rochelle, I too would not have started. We bought my daughter a cheap Stagi concertina, and it almost put her off. (It too - bought from Hobgoblin - was "broken at birth", it had two air leaks which made a couple of notes weak and slow to sound and that is a killer when you're learning. I now the confidence to a) know it was faulty and b ) fix it. )

 

I presently have a Marcus, and a 20b Lachenal of which I'm very fond and which cost me less than the Rochelle - including restoration by Marcus - and I will lose money on the Rochelle when I sell it.

 

But I knew that when I bought it, there was no way I'd have shelled out £1500 on a hybrid at that point. Nor would I have a bought Lachenal, cheap or expensive.

 

The Rochelle has its weaknesses but it is what it is - a relatively inexpensive but playable starter instrument.

 

The Rochelle did what I wanted and whatever I sell it for, it won't owe me anything.

Edited November 13, 2011 by malcolmbebb

[Nisse]

Hei Nisse. Where in Norway are you? I have a 30btn c/g hohner to lend if you want to get the feel for it. I'm in Oslo.

Hei Snorre, I am in trondheim, that's too bad... Do you know someone playing around here? Anyway, thanks for your offer

Edited November 13, 2011 by Nisse

[Nisse]

Thanks for your advice David (and Hasse, and Bill, and Jim and Malcolm ).

Well, I do not know how much I am going to play, I have no chance to get a teacher here so motivation will come or go with the fun of being able to play something decent. I do not intend to play Irish though, since it is -pardon me- quite unknown to me .

I have been looking for a vintage, but I am afraid I have no chance to be able to afford it at the end of the auction. Too bad, it appeals much more to me than the Rochelle does. As someone said, the Rochelle looks quite ugly and stiff. I also saw an old Lachenal 20b on ebay, but it needs some restoration, and I really do not know where I could have this done... So It is probably no option for me.

But really, like Malcolm says, there is no way I will spend £1500 on an unseen instrument from a perfect stranger, not even knowing if I will play 2 weeks or 20 years. Perhaps the wisest is to wait and see, hold an eye on what's available during the coming month, and if nothing comes, then go for the Rochelle from the shop...?

Edited November 13, 2011 by Nisse

[David Levine]

Re: ... a cheaper Ebay knockoff that's essential [sic] unplayable right out of the box, or that will fall apart after a few uses.

How do you know this? Have you played the Anglo concertina that is advertised with the monel reeds? Or are you just assuming that it will be inferior to the Rochelle? It looks to me as if the ends of the concertina selling for $200 (shipping included) are sourced from the same maker as the Rochelle. It could be that the action is the same as well. It could be a rebranded Rochelle, offered for half the price of the branded item, with riveted action and decent accordion reeds.

 

I have no dog in this fight. But I would not encourage people to buy an instrument that will frustrate their desire to play music. The Rochelle is probably better than some of the horrible Scarlattis with the red plastic finish and rubber band action. But is this true of all the new Ebay concertinas?

 

At any rate, I would sooner take my chances with this Lachenal than with the new ones listed. The seller will accept a return and there is the usual Ebay protection if it should be junk. I might add that this is not my concertina, nor do I know the seller!

Edited November 13, 2011 by David Levine

[Nisse]

At any rate, I would sooner take my chances with this Lachenal than with the new ones listed. The seller will accept a return and there is the usual Ebay protection if it should be junk. I might add that this is not my concertina, nor do I know the seller!

This is the one I saw, but where do I get it restaured? Yes, this is a good question by the way. Where does one get concertinas restaured usually, when there is no concertina specialist around?

Edited November 13, 2011 by Nisse

[David Levine]

I haven't seen or played the concertina so I can't say with any certainty how much work it might need. But the seller says that except for the highest note, all reeds are playing. That's good. You probably wouldn't use the highest note for quite a while. And you could always take the reed out (which is easily done) and send it to me or to Dave Elliott to get it working again. Or you can buy Dave Elliott's repair manual and do the work yourself. This little booklet is very basic but it can get you started working on your own concertina. It isn't rocket science.

 

This said, there is no guarantee that you'll win the auction. But I would certainly bid on it if I were in the market for a concertina in this price range. And if you get it and it's falling apart you can always return it under the seller's return policy and eBay's guarantee.

[Nisse]

I haven't seen or played the concertina so I can't say with any certainty how much work it might need. But the seller says that except for the highest note, all reeds are playing. That's good. You probably wouldn't use the highest note for quite a while. And you could always take the reed out (which is easily done) and send it to me or to Dave Elliott to get it working again. Or you can buy Dave Elliott's repair manual and do the work yourself. This little booklet is very basic but it can get you started working on your own concertina. It isn't rocket science.

 

This said, there is no guarantee that you'll win the auction. But I would certainly bid on it if I were in the market for a concertina in this price range. And if you get it and it's falling apart you can always return it under the seller's return policy and eBay's guarantee.

Ah! Thank you so much , I was not aware of this booklet, that makes it easier, at least for minor reparations! Of course I have no guarantee to win the auction, but at least I know I can try, which I wouldn't have done if it had to be repaired by an expert.

Have you seen these old ones?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300619328338

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/260892502218?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

Edited November 13, 2011 by Nisse

[Boney]

Re: ... a cheaper Ebay knockoff that's essential [sic] unplayable right out of the box, or that will fall apart after a few uses.

How do you know this? Have you played the Anglo concertina that is advertised with the monel reeds? Or are you just assuming that it will be inferior to the Rochelle? It looks to me as if the ends of the concertina selling for $200 (shipping included) are sourced from the same maker as the Rochelle.

 

This style of ends on Chinese concertinas has existed for quite a while before the Rochelle. I've seen many of them, and played a few, and none of them played nearly as well as a Rochelle. The appearance of the ends gives no evidence that the action or other internal details is the same as a Rochelle. To imply that they "might" be the same as a Rochelle because the ends look similar is very misleading, I think. I can almost guarantee that is not. I've never heard of a generic Chinese concertina like this with the Rochelle's button spacing and riveted action.

 

I agree the Rochelle's a somewhat clunky instrument, but PLEASE don't imply that it's the same as all the cheap Chinese concertinas...because that's how some folks will read your post.

 

In other words, YES, I would assume it will be inferior to the Rochelle.

[Geoff Wooff]

As you have suggested Nisse, that you wish to play lots of different types of music I just wonder at your choice of the Anglo. Was this due to the onward good availability of new instruments of this type or because you prefer the idea of a Diatonic push-pull keyboard? Given you musical interests I, personally,would have been more inclinded towards an English or a Duet

Playing the Anglo in its 'home keys' is not too difficult but when you wish to move into increasingly remote keys the dificulties mount up. Hence the availability of Anglos in a variety of keys. Many Anglo players have two or more instruments in different keys......

Just a thought.

Good hunting,

Geoff.

[Nisse]

As you have suggested Nisse, that you wish to play lots of different types of music I just wonder at your choice of the Anglo. Was this due to the onward good availability of new instruments of this type or because you prefer the idea of a Diatonic push-pull keyboard? Given you musical interests I, personally,would have been more inclinded towards an English or a Duet

Playing the Anglo in its 'home keys' is not too difficult but when you wish to move into increasingly remote keys the dificulties mount up. Hence the availability of Anglos in a variety of keys. Many Anglo players have two or more instruments in different keys......

Just a thought.

Good hunting,

Geoff.

Hi Geoff, and thanks for your thought .

I was tempted by the english for the reasons you mention, and I actually prefer the idea of a chromatic with no pull-push keyboard. I play the harmonica so I know the blow in-out system from before and it is no problem to me, but on the concertina it looks heavier to handle than blowing in the harmonica. In the same way, being a guitarist, I do not like the idea of being limited in the range of notes I can play.

But I also red that the anglo is more robust (remember I have small kids found of trying...) and needs little tuning (think I could manage that, but not certain yet), easier to begin with, while the english is varying much more. Which is why I intended to begin with an anglo... Sound like a bad idea?

[Nisse]

came twice...

Edited November 14, 2011 by Nisse

[David Levine]

I played an English system concertina for over ten years before switching to Anglo. I switched to Anglo because I moved to Co Clare and fell in love with the punchy sounds of Anglo players like Micilin Conlin and Tom Driscoll. The English system is easier to learn, and much easier to play for other genres than Irish Trad. An English concertina is also less expensive compared to an Anglo of similar quality.

 

Boney, the fact that you've "never heard of a generic Chinese concertina ... with the Rochelle's button spacing and riveted action." does not mean that there isn't one. If I were in the market for a concertina in that price range I'd certainly want to try some of the supposedly above-average cheapo concertinas on Ebay. That is all I said and all I meant. "Might" is the operative word in what I said. Nothing I said implies necessarily "that [the Rochelle] is the same as all the cheap Chinese concertinas." Some people might read it that way. But that isn't what I said.

 

On another note... do you know what happened to Joel Cowan? I'd love to get in touch with him. Thanks- David

[Nisse]

I played an English system concertina for over ten years before switching to Anglo. I switched to Anglo because I moved to Co Clare and fell in love with the punchy sounds of Anglo players like Micilin Conlin and Tom Driscoll. The English system is easier to learn, and much easier to play for other genres than Irish Trad. An English concertina is also less expensive compared to an Anglo of similar quality.

ah... well, what do I do now..? Start from the beginning and look for the perfect English..? What do you think about what I red concerning anglos being more robust and holding the right tuning longer? I did not find the thread where I red that a couple of days ago but still searching...

[Theo]

What do you think about what I red concerning anglos being more robust and holding the right tuning longer? I did not find the thread where I red that a couple of days ago but still searching...

 

I think it is complete nonsense. On top quality concertinas anglos tend to have more heavily built bellows to make them more stable during push/pull playing, but other than that I don't think there is any difference in durability or ability to hold tuning between English and anglo..

[Nisse]

Thanks for your answer Theo! Sounds good

Now as a beginner and without possibility to try concertinas myself in a shop, I find it difficult to get an idea of what is good and what is not... Depending on where you look, you get completely opposite answers...

?

[Nisse]

I have been playing and teaching Anglo concertina for over twenty years. I hate to see people buying the Rochelle. Many people like them but in general these people are not experienced players. I don't know any experienced players who like them. Rochelles are heavy, slow, unresponsive instruments. I would certainly not buy one new when with a bit of effort and patience a decent old used one will turn up. I much prefer a good twenty-button Lachenal Anglo. They will do for years and be resalable when and if the time comes to move up. The old 20 button Lachenal Anglos generally go for about the cost of a new Rochelle.

Is your opinion the same about the Jackie?

[David Levine]

I have no opinion-- I never saw or played a Jackie. However, I see that old English concertinas appear on Ebay often.

 

I would only caution you to get a return agreement when you bid.