guide for very new beginner

[Bill N]

Right now, there are several "affordable options", if you consider Rochelle, Stagi, etc. At least, if your aim is to see whether you like the instrument and have never played one before.

If you want quality, you have to pay for it. It is an affront to craftsmen who spend a lot of time to make the best instrument they can, for very modest returns, and hear that they are too expensive.

 

Hi Frank,

 

Sorry if I offended-certainly not my intention. I understand completely that a complex instrument with a limited market will necessarily be relatively more expensive than something like a guitar. My point was that I was grateful that there was an affordable, reliable, accessible starter option in spite of the economic realities you mention above, when I first became interested. Similarly, when I was ready to move up, I was grateful that makers like yourself provide an alternative to spending many thousands of dollars and possibly waiting many years for a better instrument. I have a Morse which I think is very good value, and coincidentally have one of yours on loan to me at the moment, which is a marvel of craftsmanship and playabilty. The pity is that such fine instruments only provide their makers with a modest return.

 

My other point was that if more people had an affordable starter option, a larger market might be created that would correct some of the economy of scale issues. I was thinking how the popularity of the instrument in the 19th century made it feasible for Wheatstone, Louis Lachenal et al to tool up and make quality, affordable instruments which still paid a good return on investment.

 

OK, back to playing. I have a session this afternoon, and am looking forward to trying out the Edgley Professional in a group!

 

Cheers

Bill

[Bill N]

Edited to remove double post

 

 

Edited December 5, 2011 by Bill N

[malcolmbebb]

I can't help thinking super-fast response speed is, in general, overrated and applicable only to a few areas of music.

The current fashion for Irish TM is apparently very fast with lots of diddly-diddlies, but I'm far from sure that you need that for all music, especially English. Bearing in mind that much of the music we hear in sessions today was propagated around the world by the 20 button Lachenals and their German equivalents/imitators, and I doubt that they were any faster then than they are now. The requirement was driven by dance and social playing, not I-can-play-faster-than-you competitions.

 

I have a 30 button Marcus hybrid. Talking to Marcus and Dave, who make them, their main market is in Ireland. They had some on sale at an event in England, but really didn't care if they sold them because they were off to Ireland the next week and very confident that they'd sell all those they had made up, and get orders for more.

 

The Marcus is way more than I need at my skill level (no, you can't have it!) but if they weren't capable of being played at the speed that ITM demands, they wouldn't be selling them in Ireland.

 

Even I can tell that my 20 button Lachenal isn't as fast as the Marcus, but it's small and light and I find it more fun to learn on than my Rochelle. But were it not for the Rochelle, I wouldn't be playing at all.

 

I made the point earlier, and I'll make it again, there is no way I would have bought the Marcus when I started out. There is no way that as a newby I would have laid out that kind of money, even with the assurances that I'd get back most of what I'd paid. It's not just me, others say the same, it's how people are. Hindsight comes later, first you have to start.

 

Maybe I will get a more expensive 30 button C/G one day (the Marcus is G/D) and then I will sell the Rochelle. I will do so happily, and I'll lose some money, but it did what I bought it for and I won't think it owes me anything.

 

Cheers

 

Malcolm

[MitfordRI]

re "hybrids" playing as responsively and fast as concertina-reeded instruments and differing only as to sound: i disagree. unfortunately, most of the hybrids do not respond and play as fast as suttners, dippers, or well-functioning, good quality vintage concertinas. some do. but some do not. in one it is a matter of slow, resistive reed response, in another, it is slow post-and-lever action, in another it's stuffy air delivery....etc, etc. i greatly regret my hybrid purchases. once you hit $1700.00 and up into the two-thousands, they DO need to be as fast and responsive as concertina-reeded instruments, and most. are. not.

 

Dear Ceemonster:

 

I'm not sure when you went off your hybrids because in reading previous posts, you were quite enthusiastic about your Morse only a couple of years ago.

 

I have a five-year old Morse and a three day old Edgley. I have been delighted by both and don't regret either purchase for a moment. What I appreciated most about the Morse when I bought it was the ability to drive to the shop, try out the various concertinas, rent a Stagi (amazing anyone sticks with concertinas after 3-4 months on a Stagi) and play a reasonably priced proper instrument within a six month period. Doug at the Button Box was kind and welcoming and didn't make me feel like an ass for wanting to take up a new instrument in my 30s. I have enjoyed every minute on the Morse and would enthusiastically recommend the Button Box to anyone.

 

That said, I can not rave about my new Edgley enough. Frank is an absolute treat of a gentleman. He answered every email patiently and at length. He called me to talk about my requests. He very kindly built my concertina with custom selected woods (ebony and curly maple). He tweaked the tone because I told him I prefer a mellow, pure tone over a honking sound. It arrived at my office on Friday and the entire staff admired it not only for its beauty but for its absolutely gorgeous voice. It plays like a dream.

 

I would be **very** surprised if you were unable to play this Edgley as fast as you like. But I would also add that speed isn't the main driver in what makes music appealing. Musicality is.

 

 

Lucy Maddock

[ceemonster]

[i'm not sure when you went off your hybrids because in reading previous posts you were quite enthusiastic about your Morse only a couple of years ago.]

 

I'm not sure what you mean by your epistolary format or your wee underlines, but then I'm not also not quite sure what you mean by "reading."

 

"Only a couple of years ago" was 2009. In an August 2007 thread where the OP asked for opinions/experiences with the Ceili, which was five years and a while ago in the evolution of my concertina playing capacities and needs, my first post replied to the OP with an enthusiastic and positive endorsement of its tone and response, noting that in my view the wonderfully fast button action compensated for a reed response I stated I found "a bit resistive." I also said it was wonderful for Ceili playing but was quite resistive over "100 on the metronome," which goes to show how little I understood then about Ceili speeds, which often range well upwards of 116 on the 'nome.

 

In my second post on that same August 2007 discussion, I reiterated my fondness for the instrument and admiration of its button action and tone, but also reiterated my disappointment in the "resistive" reed response. In that post, I further stated that I wished that Morse offered a premium-reed upgrade.

 

In my third and last post on that August 2007 discussion, I reiterated frustration at the reed response and amended my take on its speed capacity thusly:

 

[i gotta say....i love my ceili, but my itm concertina playing is starting to enter a faster phase, and over 86 or 92 on the metronome, the reed resistance is noticeable and uncomfortable, at least to my personal tendons....the thing about the model name occurred to me also. i do love the button action and i agree with the person who liked the tone personality the best of the hybrids. but it is starting to fight me.]

 

during that same August 2007 thread discussion, the late Mr. Morse contributed a couple of very good-humored, knowledgeable, and gracious posts, and also made this comment as to the instrument's reed response:

 

[....The reeds are what they are. Frank Edgely uses a quality of reed that is able to give slightly better response for ITM than ours can - but that is his niche. Some people can appreciate the difference (many can't even tell) and will buy his boxes to get that extra edge (pun unintentional!)....]

 

I reiterated delight with the Ceili's button action and tone coupled with frustration at its reed response again in a November 2007 thread, and have done so since then including in the infamously voluminous and often far-afield (both due to my own discursiveness) thread this summer concerning "low F on EC."

 

In numerous posts which actually were in "the last couple of years" as opposed to five years ago, and referring to plural hybrid makes noting that the area slowing down response differs per instrument, I have re-aired repeatedly my emphatic belief that in the price range of $2,000.00 and up, a hybrid concertina needed to deliver a speed and responsiveness in terms of reeds, mechanism, and bellows, equivalent to that of the concertina-reeded instruments such as suttners and dippers, and that this was not the case with enough makes.

 

As for taking instruction in what is the "main driver in what makes music appealing," my opinion about the speed/response capacity a $2,000-plus concertina should deliver for the price, nowhere stated or implied that speed was the primary element or value in musical appeal. i have elsewhere stated that it was the, or a, primary element in my evaluation of a concertina's playability and suitability for purchase (i feel the same about bisonoric button accordions). but i have nowhere said or implied that it was the primary value or factor in the appeal of music.

Edited December 5, 2011 by ceemonster

[Jim Besser]

[i gotta say....i love my ceili, but my itm concertina playing is starting to enter a faster phase, and over 86 or 92 on the metronome, the reed resistance is noticeable and uncomfortable, at least to my personal tendons....the thing about the model name occurred to me also. i do love the button action and i agree with the person who liked the tone personality the best of the hybrids. but it is starting to fight me.]

 

during that same August 2007 thread discussion, the late Mr. Morse contributed a couple of very good-humored, knowledgeable, and gracious posts, and also made this comment as to the instrument's reed response:

 

 

 

 

Interesting; there may be more differences between MOrse boxes than I realized.

 

My Ceili, about 7 years old, displays no such resistance. The action is incredibly light, reed response very quick and the lightness of the box facilitates fast playing.

 

In fact, the Morse is my box of choice when I"m called on to play for rapper dancers - playing jigs at 180 beats or faster. I can do it on my Jeffries, but it takes more work and is harder on my tendons. To my ear the Morse doesn't sound nearly as good as the Jeffries, but there are situations in which its super light touch and lack of weight are real assets.

Edited December 5, 2011 by Jim Besser

[hjcjones]

I have re-aired repeatedly my emphatic belief that in the price range of $2,000.00 and up, a hybrid concertina needed to deliver a speed and responsiveness in terms of reeds, mechanism, and bellows, equivalent to that of the concertina-reeded instruments such as suttners and dippers...

 

Perhaps I have misunderstood, but you seem to want hybrid concertinas to match the very highest-quality instruments costing double the price. That doesn't seem realistic to me. It's like expecting a Ford to offer the same speed and responsiveness as a Ferrari. A more realistic comparison is with equivalently-priced vintage instruments.

 

I agree that $2000 is a lot to pay. However we all understand the reasons for that. The fact is that concertinas are expensive, at all levels. The hybrids I've seen seem to offer extraordinarily good value - they're never going to match the best of the concertina-reeded instruments, but neither do they match them in price.

[Long Haired David]

Nisse is in a difficult position, being along way from any other players or from dealers where she could try out instruments. However she might take some comfort if she remembers that this is the situation most of us were in 30 or so years ago, when there weren't many dealers or other players around and getting hold of an instrument seem to depend on luck and word of mouth. Furthermore, there weren't the hybrids around, let alone starter instruments like the Rochelle, and it was a question of getting hold of whatever you could find (and afford). There were also few repairers about to sort out any refurbishment which might be necessary, and a lot less information about how to carry out repairs yourself - in fact, a lot less information about anything to do with the instrument, including how to play it.

 

Concertinas are expensive - even the Rochelle is expensive compared with a starter guitar or violin. On the other hand they hold their value, but a vintage will probably hold its value better than a Rochelle or similar. You might get a guaranteed trade-in if you upgrade, but for that you'll have to go to a dealer.

 

My advice, if you can stretch to it, would be to get a vintage Lachenal or similar. Take your chance, and if what you get doesn't suit you, put it back on ebay and try again.

 

I picked up a Lachenal which by it's serial is around 130 years old. Nicely restored with new bellows and pads. Rosewood ends. As it was a 20 key Anglo, I got it for £300.00. I would expect to get close to that if I ever sold it. It has a very nice tone and is easy to play. However, I do find the the 5 bellows means that I run out of puff quickly. Still for £300 you can't have everything - grin.

 

David