Anglo layout : new idea

[david fabre]

In the recent weeks I've been exploring the possibilities of the G/D in more detail (with the help of my new Edgley).

I found myself using more the upper range than previously on the C/G, and have been twisting my brain and my

fingers to find fingerings in that range. In effect, the fact that you have only four working fingers but five columns

of buttons make the use of the higher ones a bit awkward, considering that your fingers will normally lie along the

first four, so that you have to shift your fingers at some point and/or cross the fingers, with the risk of going into

a finger knot, and you need some anticipation to "fall back on you feet" (or more properly on your fingers) when

going back to the lower range. I guess those of you playing G/D see what I mean...

 

I've had a simple idea that may greatly simplify those fingering problems without involving a major redisign of the layout.

The idea is to shift all the notes one step right, so that your normal playing position will now be on buttons 2 to 5,

and to relocate the notes of the last column on the first one made availible.

So for the central (G) row this will give :

 

f#/b F#/G A/B c/d e/g instead of : F#/G A/B c/d e/g f#/b

 

and the same thing for the two other rows.

With this, there is no need to shift the fingers at any point; instead, when going to the upper range you will play the upper

note with your first finger (which is the strongest and most mobile) instead of the weaker ones. i've tried "blank" with a few

of the tunes I'm currently working on and this seems to work very well ! I guess that any experienced player could adapt to

this in a rather little time.

Another interest is that it may improve the balance of the instrument, because the buttons you play the most are now

located more at the center of the instrument.

 

What do you think ?

Edited January 17, 2011 by david fabre

[Alan Day]

I like discussions like this David and as you may remember I recently raised a discussion regarding the duplication of notes and a possible rearrangement.

My thoughts on this one is one of hesitation.It is quite simple on certain difficult pieces to move the hand over one button to the right or if you have accidentals to the left.Some Irish players I have watched only use three fingers total(on each hand) , moving their fingers sideways, or using a finger on top of the other for very fast repeated notes. I switch rows to make it easier to get to the higher notes. After saying all this I have changed the original layout of all my concertinas to suit myself. Not many changes, but enough to make things comfortable.If therefore you feel more comfortable with the layout you are considering and it works for you,just go for it. If this requires serious internal work and it is not reverse able I would give it a lot more thought.

Al

[david fabre]

Well, I've just looked inside of my Edgley, but contrary to what I thought, the reed plates have different sizes, so they cannot be switched easily and in a reversible way. So I think I won't risk anything with it. A pitty i did not think about this earlier...

[Theo]

In effect, the fact that you have only four working fingers but five columns

of buttons make the use of the higher ones a bit awkward, considering that your fingers will normally lie along the

first four, so that you have to shift your fingers at some point and/or cross the fingers,

 

Players of melodeons have the same problem but on a larger scale. For us its a normal part of the technique of learning to play our instrument. On melodeon its mainly a matter of planning your fingering so that the shifts of hand position are made in advance of running out of fingers, in order to enable a smooth change, and to avoid the finger knots you refer to. I find it useful to think of always having a spare finger in whichever direction the tune is heading.

[Mikefule]

A cheaper and easier solution is to practise more. Look to the archer, not to the bow.

[hjcjones]

You still have five buttons in the row with only four fingers to play them. Your proposal loses any last vestiges of logic in the anglo fingering system.

 

The notes on the fifth button which you're proposing to move to the first button are also available on the D row and I usually find I can play these notes by cross-rowing without tying my fingers in knots. However I'm playing English music so I probably have a bit more time to do this than if I were playing Irish.

 

But if it works for you...

[david_boveri]

i play up there on those buttons all the time on a C/G. there are two different ways to approach getting at that extra button, both involving shifting. some people like to call this going into second position, which would be going one button up (so your pointer is on the second button if it was pressed down). the difference is in how you shift position.

 

the first way is to jump buttons with one of your fingers, playing two notes on adjacent buttons with the same finger. practice makes perfect. here is a good exercise. first try practicing your D scale on the right hand D row, having your pinkie do buttons four and five, but then stay in second position and put your ring finger down for the high high D. then try the scale, but have your pinkie play the last three notes, B, C#, and D. i assure you it is possible. i don't own a G/D right now, but i can do that with no problem on the C/G. it took a few years, and i would never play the scale that way in a tune (i might the first way given in this example), but it is essential to be able to jump around that much on your pinkie.

 

another way to get into second position, which i learned from brian peters, is to switch into second by playing two fingers in a row on the SAME button. i will illustrate with C/G for the sake of convenience (for me). lets say you are playing the G scale on the G row, without using the C or accidental row. start G first finger, pull A second finger, and then play B with the first finger. so, in other words you change fingers on the button when you change directions, in order to maintain smoothness. this is the same sort of motion which is used in piano playing to play two notes in a row, or even to do an accordion triplet. the difference between this and an accordion triplet is that you are changing directions in the middle of it.

 

you can do the same thing with your ring and middle finger, from C to D. doing a "piano style" switch requires pre-planning, as you have to be able to know when you need to switch into second position ahead of them, and also know when you need to jump back down. it is usually not a smart idea to switch when you run out of notes, but rather several notes early.

 

i tend to actually do both ways. i practice tunes using both fingerings, to the point that when i am playing i do not know which i end up using. i alsolike to work on playing in double octaves, which means that sometimes i have to end up switching the far side of my right hand into second position while keeping my pointer finger in first position. a good example is when i am playing octaves on the G scale, F# and G are played by the same hand in two octaves simultaneously: F# with pointer and pinkie, G with pointer and ring. this is quite the stretch, as you can imagine, and i have very small hands which makes it harder. playing double octaves in D is more difficult, as i have to switch into second position while jumping around on different fingers to get the B to C# to D combination. i will often actually play C# with pointer and ring in the accidental row, and then jump my ringer finger two rows up into the G row to play the D push. lately i have been playing the D pull on accidental row (last button) with my pinkie, and D pull in the C row with my pointer or middle finger--depending on if i do both B's on the right hand, in which case i tend to jump from second finger C# with my middle finger to D pull with my middle finger as well. as you can see, neither option is very easy, and yet i am very close to being able to do it consistently at full speed.

 

i say this all the illustrate the point that playing the high notes on the high buttons on the concertina is certainly doable, by showing something that is much harder in comparison. needless to say playing double octaves that high is a lot more difficult than just playing individual notes that high. so, i would say it can be done, and it is very often done, especially in british music (as you are probably aware). tweaking a note here and there is ok, but i think that redoing the whole side of the instrument is a bit much. you could surely try it out for fun (it is easy to undo on an edgley), but i would only recommend it if you like to learn things the hard way, :-).

[david fabre]

Your proposal loses any last vestiges of logic in the anglo fingering system.

 

I don't think the anglo layout has only "vestiges of logic" ; on the opposite I think it is highly logical. Contrary to the bandoneon it has kept two fully operational diatonic rows. And while the accidentals are only availible in a single direction (with 30b) they are all in the direction where they are most useful, and at a location which makes sense. In fact I have though a lot about how the layout could be improved (unfortunately these days I have more time to think about it than to play it) and reached the conclusion that it is close to optimal.

Eventually I have only done two minor modifications (compared to Wheatstone G/D layout): raised the Bb on the left (outer row, 3rd button) to B and lowered the higher bflat on the right (outer row, 4th button) to a.

(on a C/G this translates into : left Eb raised to E ; right upper eb lowered to d).

This is a compromise which trades full chromaticity over the whole range for more versatility for playing chords in both directions. For what I play on G/D I have never regretted this change, but I conceive that others with different needs may prefer the standard.

 

I also consider the present idea as a minor improvement : a simple rearrangement of the less used (but not less useful) buttons. Also, this breaks the arrangement along the row at the location where the logic is weakest (ie where the push-pull pattern to go up the scale is lost).

 

The notes on the fifth button which you're proposing to move to the first button are also available on the D row and I usually find I can play these notes by cross-rowing without tying my fingers in knots.

 

Of course. But I was proposing this for the three rows, and for the inner one there is no such possibility. Additionally, when playing along the G row, if you play with chords, there are cases where you cannot cross to the inner row because the notes are not in the direction you need them.

 

The worst situation is when I want to play a sequence of notes in the upper range all in the same direction; for example f#-g-a-b (on G/D) all on the push or all on the pull (for example when I want to hold a bass note at the same time).

In the lower range this is fairly easy by alternating between the two hands; in the upper range this is a nightmare... and the kind of situation where a rearrangement of the upper notes could be most usefull.

Edited January 21, 2011 by david fabre

[david fabre]

i play up there on those buttons all the time on a C/G. there are two different ways to approach getting at that extra button, both involving shifting. some people like to call this going into second position, which would be going one button up (so your pointer is on the second button if it was pressed down). the difference is in how you shift position.

 

Thanks for taking time of writing a long answer.

About the first method (jumping with the pinkie) I have difficulties do that because my pinky is weak (I know this can be improved), and is also particularly short (unfortunately it can't be changed ).

I also use the second method.

I also see a third possible method, which consists of changing fingers on a button while playing. For instance, play a push b (on G row) with the second finger, and gently change to the first finger without releasing the button. This is mostly useful for slow tunes where you have long notes (walzes, etc...) and where you want to sound as smooth as possible.

 

playing double octaves in D is more difficult,

If you followed my explanations in my previous post, on my instrument I have the higher c# and d on the same button (4th button on outer row), which makes playing up the scale in D (and possibly in octaves) much easier.

 

tweaking a note here and there is ok, but i think that redoing the whole side of the instrument is a bit much. you could surely try it out for fun (it is easy to undo on an edgley), but i would only recommend it if you like to learn things the hard way, :-).

 

As I explained previously, unfortunately such things cannot be done and undone easily on my Edgley ; so the discussion is becoming mainly theoretical.

 

And I know : practice, practice...

Edited January 21, 2011 by david fabre

[david_boveri]

i play up there on those buttons all the time on a C/G. there are two different ways to approach getting at that extra button, both involving shifting. some people like to call this going into second position, which would be going one button up (so your pointer is on the second button if it was pressed down). the difference is in how you shift position.

 

Thanks for taking time of writing a long answer.

About the first method (jumping with the pinkie) I have difficulties do that because my pinky is weak (I know this can be improved), and is also particularly short (unfortunately it can't be changed ).

I also use the second method.

I also see a third possible method, which consists of changing fingers on a button while playing. For instance, play a push b (on G row) with the second finger, and gently change to the first finger without releasing the button. This is mostly useful for slow tunes where you have long notes (walzes, etc...) and where you want to sound as smooth as possible.

 

I don't know how short your pinkie is, but in general I have very small hands for a man, so I know how hard it can be. Over time I have learned to angle my hands when necessary to reach all the buttons, to the point where I can reach almost every button with my pinkie if I really wanted to, even if my straps were so tight I have trouble gettig my hands in and out. I demonstrate this in a video below, though I do not have my straps so tight as I would like (but still tighter than most people I know).

 

I like that third option. I am sure I do it from time to time without thinking of it!

 

playing double octaves in D is more difficult,

If you followed my explanations in my previous post, on my instrument I have the higher c# and d on the same button (4th button on outer row), which makes playing up the scale in D (and possibly in octaves) much easier.

 

I could not find reference to that in this thread. Sorry if I missed it in another thread or cannot find it in this one. I am in grad school now and can only "come up for air" every once in a while.

 

tweaking a note here and there is ok, but i think that redoing the whole side of the instrument is a bit much. you could surely try it out for fun (it is easy to undo on an edgley), but i would only recommend it if you like to learn things the hard way, :-).

 

As I explained previously, unfortunately such things cannot be done and undone easily on my Edgley ; so the discussion is becoming mainly theoretical.

 

I apologize for missing that! It was late at night when I replied and I missed that post.

 

And I know : practice, practice...

 

In that vein I have made a video showing that the limitations of the instrument and the human hand can be overcome with practice:

 

 

I read your post, and I wanted to make a video to show you that there is light at the end of the tunnel. When I first saw Brian Peters do a C scale entirely in the C row, I couldn't believe anyone could jump their pinkie back and forth. Then, when he showed me the William Kimber style C scale (which is similar to how an Irish style player might finger it), I jumped ship and put in the row scales on the back burner. Fast forward to now...

 

In the video, first I played the G scale using four fingers on a C/G, as in the first methods above. Then, I did the scale four more times, using only one finger at a time to do the entire scale. I had wanted to see if it were possible to play the G-scale entirely on the pinkie finger. So, needless to say it definitely is, and I surprised myself at being able to pull off the whole video. I hope it helps you open your mind to what is possible with enough practice! That movie is almost exactly 4 years after I met brian peters, therefore about 4 years of practice at playing in the rows. As an across the rows player, which is my main and original style, I only had 2 more years than that under my belt, and had no strength in my right hand pinkie, which I never used in Irish music until recently.

 

So, keep it up... I probably wouldn't have been able to do the video a couple of weeks ago, but I spent a lot of time practicing over my winter break. The key factor in such a ridiculous (and possibly pointless) endeavor is finger placement, which I believe is a key component of tone control. I actually never could successfully do any Irish ornamentation that used my right hand pinkie before about 3 weeks ago, so it all comes in due time.

 

You could of course adapt the idea to some sort of exercise, but even I must admit it is kind of neurotic and way over the top. I enjoyed it, however, and will probably practice my single-finger scale chops, but then again I tend to do things like that anyways, instead of... you know... playing good music, instead!

[Azalin]

and had no strength in my right hand pinkie, which I never used in Irish music until recently.

 

I'm surprised to hear that! I use my right hand pinkie mainly in Gm tunes to switch from A to Bb, from the pinkie A to the accidental row Bb with my ring finger. Trying to use the other A on the RH G row would be much more difficult IMH.

[hjcjones]

Your proposal loses any last vestiges of logic in the anglo fingering system.

I don't think the anglo layout has only "vestiges of logic" ; on the opposite I think it is highly logical.

That was meant tongue in cheek, but my point remains - your proposal breaks away from the usual logic of the anglo keyboard.

 

The worst situation is when I want to play a sequence of notes in the upper range all in the same direction; for example f#-g-a-b (on G/D) all on the push or all on the pull (for example when I want to hold a bass note at the same time).

In the lower range this is fairly easy by alternating between the two hands; in the upper range this is a nightmare... and the kind of situation where a rearrangement of the upper notes could be most usefull.

 

f#-g-a-b is playable entirely on the push. On the pull I admit it is a problem on a 30-key instrument. Of course the chord or bass note may be available in the other direction as well, but if not then you just have to compromise - which I find is an essential part of playing anglo.

 

If you find you are regularly trying to play a particular sequence of notes and rearranging the button layout would produce a more satisfactory solution (which is not the same as being easier) then you might decide to make the change. I am not convinced that what you are proposing would benefit most players.

[Guest Martin Gibson]

You could buy a Unisonic

[Anglo-Irishman]

You could buy a Unisonic

 

You mean a mono-sonoric - same note on push and pull?

 

If so, isn't the Jeffries duet basically a mono-sonoric Anglo?

 

Cheers,

John

[david fabre]

David_B,

Thanks for the video. I tried this. I succeed with the two first fingers (but not at same tempo) but not with the pinkie. It's a funny exercice; however I think it is much more useful to spend time practicing the scales "all on the push" or "all on the pull" than in this way...

 

I could not find reference to that in this thread. Sorry if I missed it in another thread or cannot find it in this one. I am in grad school now and can only "come up for air" every once in a while.

 

A diagram is better than a long explanation ; so here is the layout of my G/D :

http://www.myspace.com/erbaffdavid/photos/8863641

(NB I just spotted a mistake : on button "'64" there should not be "primes" ; the notes g#/a are in the "second octave" not the "third one". unfortunately I don't find the source file anymore so I cannot correct...)

And here is the same layout transposed as if it were a C/G :

http://www.myspace.com/erbaffdavid/photos/8863849

The thee deviations with respect to standart wheatstone are indicated with stars. As I explained previously I have traded the upper and lower bflat (or eflat for C/G) for more useful notes that are missing in the draw. The third deviation is for the pull note on the bottom button on the inner row, where I have the same thing as on Jeffries.

To be exact, this diagram corresponds to my former G/D (stagi) and my new Edgley has one more customization : the push note on the upper button on the inner row is bb instead of f#' (for C/G : eb' instead of b'). I did that to find a new location to the higher bflat that was lost owing to the previous modification, and because I thought that this note could be more useful than the extremely high f#. However up to now I have not used this note yet.

Edited January 22, 2011 by david fabre

[david_boveri]

and had no strength in my right hand pinkie, which I never used in Irish music until recently.

 

I'm surprised to hear that! I use my right hand pinkie mainly in Gm tunes to switch from A to Bb, from the pinkie A to the accidental row Bb with my ring finger. Trying to use the other A on the RH G row would be much more difficult IMH.

 

actually, noel hill taught me to grab for that note with my ring finger. so, if i were to go from A to Bb on the right hand, i would use my middle finger for A, and my ring finger for Bb, which is bringing my ring finger temporarily into "second position". what is the layout of your right hand? i have a carroll preffered layout, which is a modified jeffries style. since a jeffries' Bb is on the fourth button, it allows one to use the A pull in the G row. if you happen to have a Bb on the fourth button, i'd say try grabbing it with your ring finger, rather than your pinkie! i would consider this the standard fingering in my playing (which is derivative of Noel's). in any sort of Bb or F major tune when i have to spend a lot of time up there, i sometimes even switch my whole hand into second position (for example, when playing laird of drumblair in Bb).

 

so, although i do not use it in the situation you point it, i of course had used the button before, but never very much, and definitely not enough to be adept enough to use those fingers in public in irish tunes until the last 12 months or so.

 

when i saw noel hill last august, he gave me a tune which required me to play F-A-F on the C row (all natural), with the A as a grace note. this meant i had to use Ring-Pinkie-Ring, and i could not really do at all. i also had a problem with A-C-A on the G row, which doesn't even use my pinkie. as recently as then i could not do a "believable" cut onto an A or a B on the right hand side! so, i've been working on my weaker fingers in general, which i think the video shows has paid off.

[david_boveri]

David_B,

Thanks for the video. I tried this. I succeed with the two first fingers (but not at same tempo) but not with the pinkie. It's a funny exercice; however I think it is much more useful to spend time practicing the scales "all on the push" or "all on the pull" than in this way...

 

I would agree that it is a bit of a strange exercise, and that becoming adept at button combinations that show up in real time may be more beneficial. I come from parallel backgrounds musically, both irish and classical, so i have learned that annoying and strange classical-like exercises can indeed benefit my folk music playing. i do not think i would ever play a scale like that in a piece, but i think that it is a great way to learn better finger control, agility, and hand placement. or, in other words, if one could play all the scales as quickly as i did in the manner i did, one would not be intimidated by G/D style playing! and, if i left it out, the real reason i have spent a lot of time practicing up there on the C/G is in the hopes i will someday get a G/D and go straight into session playing without a break in period,

 

I could not find reference to that in this thread. Sorry if I missed it in another thread or cannot find it in this one. I am in grad school now and can only "come up for air" every once in a while.

 

A diagram is better than a long explanation ; so here is the layout of my G/D :

http://www.myspace.com/erbaffdavid/photos/8863641

(NB I just spotted a mistake : on button "'64" there should not be "primes" ; the notes g#/a are in the "second octave" not the "third one". unfortunately I don't find the source file anymore so I cannot correct...)

And here is the same layout transposed as if it were a C/G :

http://www.myspace.com/erbaffdavid/photos/8863849

The thee deviations with respect to standart wheatstone are indicated with stars. As I explained previously I have traded the upper and lower bflat (or eflat for C/G) for more useful notes that are missing in the draw. The third deviation is for the pull note on the bottom button on the inner row, where I have the same thing as on Jeffries.

To be exact, this diagram corresponds to my former G/D (stagi) and my new Edgley has one more customization : the push note on the upper button on the inner row is bb instead of f#' (for C/G : eb' instead of b'). I did that to find a new location to the higher bflat that was lost owing to the previous modification, and because I thought that this note could be more useful than the extremely high f#. However up to now I have not used this note yet.

 

well, the pattern i was referring to in that earlier post would correspond to the buttons 44 and 45 on your G/D layout. this would be:

 

44 pull: B

45 pull: C#

44 push: D

 

so, the example i had been trying to make in my the second to last paragraph of my first post in this thread is that while doing that combination, i would be playing the lower octave simultaneously. so, on your layout it would be:

 

pull: (44) B with (15) B. this is two separate hands

pull: (41) C# with (45) C#. this is with the same hands, with my pointer in first position and my pinkie in second

push: (41) D with (44) D. this is actually even harder than C#, because i have to stretch my ring finger out in second position, while my pointer finger remains in first.

 

i hope that clarifies what i meant! the point of it all was that even such finger-stretching is not so bad if you keep at it. now that i am working on doing that, all of a sudden jumping all my fingers around doesn't seem so bad! i'm hoping the exercise in the video i posted will make double octaves as i just demonstrated that much easier. i'm hoping to be able to play things like the full first part of devaney's goat in double octaves. i was inspired by edel fox's use of double octaves in this video but would like to be able to play that full phrase in double octaves. of course, if i play out of time or reaaaally slow i can pull it off, but that's not the point,

[Azalin]

and had no strength in my right hand pinkie, which I never used in Irish music until recently.

 

I'm surprised to hear that! I use my right hand pinkie mainly in Gm tunes to switch from A to Bb, from the pinkie A to the accidental row Bb with my ring finger. Trying to use the other A on the RH G row would be much more difficult IMH.

 

actually, noel hill taught me to grab for that note with my ring finger. so, if i were to go from A to Bb on the right hand, i would use my middle finger for A, and my ring finger for Bb, which is bringing my ring finger temporarily into "second position". what is the layout of your right hand? i have a carroll preffered layout, which is a modified jeffries style. since a jeffries' Bb is on the fourth button, it allows one to use the A pull in the G row. if you happen to have a Bb on the fourth button, i'd say try grabbing it with your ring finger, rather than your pinkie!

 

But you misread my post a bit, I'm saying I'm going from the RH "C row" A, using my pinkie, and then playing the Bm on the accidental row using the ring finger. It seems the only difference with you is that I pull the A on the RH C row using my pinkie, and you pull it on the RH G row using the middle finger... Would you suggest using the middle finger for pull A instead of pinkie for pull A because the middle finger is a stronger finger, and also that read being closer to the top, will sound brighter? I just tried in a tune I just learned and using the middle finger even seems a bit easier! Keep it mind that I usually always use pull A on the RH G row with my middle finger, I only use pinkie A when I need to play that Bm just above it using my ring finger.