Wakker'clover' or Tedrow standard?

[zipper12]

Which of these two would you prefer??

[Ken_Coles]

I like 'em both. If you can't try them in person, I'm not sure what to tell you, as the various makers vary things that are a matter of taste for you, the buyer. Maybe buy from whoever is closer to you?

 

Ken

[rayce]

I'll be receiving an early 2000's Tedrow this week. I've only played a Morse Ceili before, but I'll give you my impressions if you're interested. Even though I'm not super versed in a broad range of instrument makes, I'm pretty honest when it comes to analyzing what I do and don't like. Maybe one day I'll be able to get my hands on that "holy grail" of an instrument...it seems my guitar lust has mutated into concertina lust as of late...

[shelly0312]

so, do you consider a Tedrow 1 full step up on the Morse, or more of a lateral move? And what is your "holy Grail"?? I'd love to hear your considerations.

 

Michelle

[Brian McGee]

Rayce,

 

Make sure to post pictures!

 

B

[ceemonster]

[so, do you consider the tedrow a step up from the morse? or more of a lateral move?]

 

morse, tedrow, edgeley, norman, and marcus would be considered laterals of about par with one another, which is not to say that the individual player wouldn't find one or more of these makes preferable in one or more aspects to the individual player's needs, tastes, etc. but they are at least "considered" vastly advantageous for learning and playing as compared to starter italian or asian makes, and at least par, and in some cases superior to, lachenals.

 

having said all of that, my view of the "hybrid" concertinas has altered radically after having owned more than one. they now cost thousands of dollars. if you are a u.s. buyer, the UK brands REALLY cost a lot. to me, once an instrument costs thousands, plural, the fact that it may cost much less than the so-called "authentic" concertina is irrelevant to my bottom line, which is, that for thousands, plural, the hybrid concertina must be as fast and responsive as the so-called "authentic" makes. for my money (literally) the accordion reeds, and NOT the quality of the response/action (bellows, buttons, and reeds) should be the only thing making it cheaper, in an instrument costing thousands, plural.

 

and unfortunately, this is simply not the case with most of these makes. one will have slow button action, the other will have great button action but cheaper and thus stiff and resistant reeds that slow you down, etc. so-called "reviews" of them are not very useful and often are unintentionally misleading, because the great majority of so-called "reviews" are really usually just new owners who are not very proficient players yet waxing rhapsodic about how much more playable their new hybrid is than the Stagi they tried to start out on.

 

the "review" that would be useful would be, noel hill or timmy collins or michael o'r saying something like, i prefer the sound of "true" concertina reeds, but aside from that, this thing will rock the fastest ceili in town and still have speed and responsiveness in reserve. at the prices these guys now cost (and btw, the cosmetics and craftsmanship on all of them are lovely, imho), i believe that is now the challenge. the hybrid maker who could reliably deliver that concertina at around $2500 could clean up and revolutionize the business to boot, particularly given the economic climate. i suspect that many if not most players could happily dispense with their preference for the "concertina reed" sound if they could get a fantastically fast, responsive accordion-reeded instrument at that price. and even those who still went with the high-end "true" concertinas, would want these as well.

Edited September 8, 2010 by ceemonster

[m3838]

the "review" that would be useful would be, noel hill or timmy collins or michael o'r saying something like, i prefer the sound of "true" concertina reeds, but aside from that, this thing will rock the fastest ceili in town and still have speed and responsiveness in reserve. at the prices these guys now cost

I agree with this.

(and btw, the cosmetics and craftsmanship on all of them are lovely, imho)

Agree too.

General impression for me is that Concertina cost more per production unit than Accordion, but accordion plays better per unit of cost.

I had Ceili in CG and GD, had Albion Baritone and Treble, had Wakker in CG. All had to be returned. All had clearly different starting speeds depending on the pitch. All had less-than-spectacular dynamics. The best by the sound file is the Edgley, it has richer spectrum of sound, more accordionish. Then I'd rate Morse, Marcus been on the "bottom". I really liked GD Tedrow, but CG Tedrow tend to sound thin.

Surprisingly, the best dynamics I found in the Jackie, bottom line chinese/Wakker made English.

The instruments I had all looked and felt very good, level of visual quality was simply outstanding. All makers claimed it'll get better with time - perhaps. I don't buy it. They didn't seem to charge me less with more payments in the future, when sound becomes better. There must be some electric air pump in the shop making sound better BEFORE instrument is sold at full price of, yes, thousands of dollars, plural. In addition to this, not all Morses are made equal. I had multiple problems with my Albion, all of which had to be fixed.

Morse's bellows were very good quality ,very tight and easy to work. Wakker bellows were stiffer. I'm sure now they figured a way to make new bellows playable.

If I was on the market, I'd buy Edgley hands down.

Edited September 8, 2010 by m3838

[LDT]

Well I've got a Tedrow standard, and most people I've let have a go on it have had positive comments.

Edited September 10, 2010 by LDT

[david fabre]

I remark that when it comes to "hybrid" instruments, the discussion often comes to speed and responsiveness of the action.

I'm curious to know if such a debate also exists in the accordion / melodeon community. These instruments have the same reeds as the hybrids we are discussing but the action has a radically different design. Are accordion / melodeon players satisfied with the responsiveness of their action mechanism or are they also running after the "holly Graal" of the fast-as-hell instrument ?

 

I guess that for accordeon/melodeon, the action and reed design have evolved convergently for decades to reach a good matching ; maybe such a matching is not yet reached for hybrid concertinas.

[ceemonster]

[Are accordion / melodeon players satisfied with the responsiveness of their action mechanism or are they also running after the "holly Graal" of the fast-as-hell instrument ?]

 

i play b/c accordion, and i assure you that for players who take their development of technique and their musicianship seriously, an optimally responsive, fast action is not some "holy grail." it is a basic standard to optimize playability. now, certainly, there is room for debate as to whether, say, so-called "blue line hand-MADE" reeds are actually significantly better than well-done "hand-TYPE" reeds, etc. but there is definitely a difference in response and performance between the stiffer factory durall reeds and the better hand-type reeds, and people want them for good reason, including players who love the more relaxed speeds. you don't have to be some hyped-up speed demon to want the most responsive instrument you can get. yes, there are folks who use basic factory-reeded instruments for the long haul (particularly some of the older factory reeds, which were often far more responsive than current factory reeds, i'm sure some box whiz could elucidate us as to why), but most people who take up and then stick with bi-directional accordions long enough to get really serious about it do not. when you see good, serious players with hohners or saltarelles, they have often subbed those less responsive factory reeds out with more responsive sets. the great thing about accordions is that you don't have to buy the nine-grand briggs to have a brilliant box. you can just upgrade the reeds (and sometimes the button action) in any well-made, solid product and you're golden.

 

please remember as well, that my opinion was expressed in the context of "for the money." if you are laying out thousands of dollars, plural, for a free-reed instrument, i believe it is ludicrous, even offensive, to invest this kind of dough in an instrument that will not cruise with ease in the fast lane. after all, if it cruises with ease in the fast lane, it will practically drive FOR you in the medium and slow lanes. and for thousands, plural, that is darned well what it ought to do.

Edited September 9, 2010 by ceemonster

[david fabre]

Thanks for the precision. However this does not completely answer my question : as far as I understand the makers of "hybrid" instruments use the best quality reeds that you mention (a mano, or at least tipo a mano). So why do these reeds, which give full satisfaction when employed in melodeons, give a less satisfying result (to your opinion) when they are fitted into concertinas ?

Is there some kind of incompatibility between these reeds and the way they are mounted in concertinas, or with the action they are linked to, which prevents them from giving their best ?

 

I'd be interested to have the opinion of someone who has built (or at least repaired) concertinas AND melodeons, if there are any here...

[ceemonster]

[as far as I understand the makers of "hybrid" instruments use the best quality reeds that you mention (a mano, or at least tipo a mano)]

 

to try to address your question a bit.....

 

first: no, not all of the hybrid makers use best-quality reeds. i'm not saying they use "bad" reeds, but not all of them use premium, pro-quality reeds. i can think of one maker in particular i WISH offered a reed-upgrade option because their button action is so great and their reeds are so annoying.

 

second: reeds are not the only component contributing to an instrument's responsiveness quotient. it is a factor of reed responsiveness, bellows responsiveness, and button-mechanism responsiveness. actually, valves can come into play as well. so.....for example you can (and do) have makers who use premium reeds but whose button mechanism, while again, by no means "bad," are not optimal. and as noted above, you can (and do) have makers whose button action is swell but whose reeds are not the world's most supple or responsive, thus kinda nullifying that great button mechanism. i can think of one hybrid maker who does a wonderful riveted action but whose box tends to stuff up air-flow-wise (thus slowing you down again!) in the valve-function area. or perhaps it's the reeds, i just don't know, but when you see multiple posters saying they've encountered this problem in this make, and you yourself have encountered it, you know you're not imagining things (i'm not talking about bellows in this particular instance. it's something valve-ish that stuffs up the reed response).

 

so again, i'm saying---the maker who can find a way to deliver a $2500.00 accordion-reeded concertina with a big, rich voice and the speed and responsiveness of a suttner or dipper, is going to clean up business-wise, and take the history of the anglo concertina into a revolutionary new phase. in the current economic climate, if top-quality action and responsiveness were available at a price, i suspect it would not be long before the accordion reed sound would be found as agreeable and desirable as the concertina reed sound......not that i have anything against the concertina-reed sound, which i love. but the accordion reed sound is just as gorgeous, and i do believe that beauty would find its way to the hearts of many if the concertina i am describing made its way into the world....

Edited September 10, 2010 by ceemonster

[Ken_Coles]

so again, i'm saying---the maker who can find a way to deliver a $2500.00 accordion-reeded concertina with a big, rich voice and the speed and responsiveness of a suttner or dipper, is going to clean up business-wise, and take the history of the anglo concertina into a revolutionary new phase. in the current economic climate, if top-quality action and responsiveness were available at a price, i suspect it would not be long before the accordion reed sound would be found as agreeable and desirable as the concertina reed sound......not that i have anything against the concertina-reed sound, which i love. but the accordion reed sound is just as gorgeous, and i do believe that beauty would find its way to the hearts of many if the concertina i am describing made its way into the world....

 

Well, a lot of very bright folks (builders) sure are trying. A couple have told me they are aspire to build an instrument they themselves find preferable to anything else. I know one maker who has quit using the boxes he owned by one of the most famous modern trad style builders, and another who sold his heirloom-by-that-legendary-maker instruments, both now play their own boxes. Neither are slouches as players (both sound superb and virtuosic to me). I have extensive time over the last 13 years on five makes of hybrids, plus several Lachenals, a Kensington, and a Dipper (some of these were mine, some borrowed). I already find most of the hybrids more than I can probably ever outplay, but I'll be the first to admit I'm a duffer. I guess the middle-skill-level market (I hope that includes me!) is a big one...and let's remember that it may include the original poster, too. Yes, those of you who play at the edge should encourage every maker to improve what they already do. But I can't dismiss out of hand the new genre of hybrid instruments - they have existed for only the last 15 years and it's not a bad start. Cee, I expect your dreams can be fulfilled, but how soon/how fast is anyone's guess.

 

Back to practice the box for me, because I'm still the weakest link in my own playing!

Ken

[wim wakker]

...had Wakker in CG.

 

I wonder which instrument you mean. There has NEVER been a Wakker hybrid concertina, and I am sure there never will be. All Wakker concertinas have ‘concertina’ reeds. Our hybrid models are produced by the Concertina Connection.

 

There is a big difference between concertina reeds and accordion reeds that cannot be bridged. It has nothing to do with which type of sound you prefer, they are just from different free reed families, like violin strings are different from guitar strings.

 

Both reeds are part of a particular building style. Just like guitar and violin making follows different principles, concertina and accordion principles and techniques also differ. During my years in college, only the accordion technique (Harmonika bau) was taught. I was one of the first who actually included the other principles when I started teaching. Unfortunately, many of my (former) colleagues and manufacturers in the accordion industry still consider the Concertina technique bothersome and primitive….

 

Concertina principles are closely related to the harmonium, melophone and cecilium. From a technical point of view it doesn’t really matter what shape the instrument has, or which type of keyboard. If you use the concertina principle in an accordion shaped instrument, you’ll end up with an accordion hybrid. With musical instruments the word hybrid indicates that the shape of the instrument and the tone generation do not normally go together. Like a violin with guitar strings, or a trumpet with a flute mouthpiece….

 

The concertina principle is not better or worse than the accordion, it just is different. It has its own specifications and advantages and disadvantages. From a technical point of view, the word concertina refers to a certain way the reed is activated (thru a so called directed airflow), its amplitude profile, air flow values and pressure range. One of the unique features is the fact that the harmonic spectrum can be adjusted and that it allows for a lot of nuances through reflection and filtering, which makes it unique in the free reed world. The type of wood, dimensions of the chambers, amplitude of the reeds all result in noticeable differences in tone. We’ve built over 120 instruments, and not 2 are the same. A disadvantage is that it is a lot more complex and sensitive to inconsistencies.

 

The sound of a concertina is different because of its underlying principles. NOT because of the reeds alone. They are part of a system.

All hybrid concertinas use the same, or at least comparable reeds. Antonelli (Salpa) is by far the most popular. In fact, they are one of a few (3 as far as I know) that are willing to go through the trouble of making such small batches.. It is very labor intensive with a small profit margin. As for classification, Antonelli makes good reeds, but is certainly not considered top quality. The ‘top’ reed manufacturers have no interest in our little world.. Maybe if you order 5000+ sets a year they might consider it. The accordion principles of sound production are also found in Bayans, melodeons and hybrid bandoneons.

 

Quality difference in accordion reeds refers to the minimum airflow required to maintain sound (reed coasting) and the consistency of the harmonic spectrum. ALL accordion reeds, maybe with the exception of the “export” quality, suffice in a concertina. Nuances between ‘typo a mano’ and ‘a mano’ are noticeable for insiders in an accordion or other large instrument with a low air pressure, but are not noticeable in a concertina. I do this professionally and base my conclusions on measurable facts. If you measure the harmonic spectrum, minimum air flow, maximum amplitude and ‘ live’ part of the reed, you’ll see that the difference between the available reeds for anglo concertinas is so small, that no one can hear any difference. Measured with the appropriate software, the difference is only a few percent. The minimum airflow in a concertina is a at least 5 times the amount necessary to notice even the smallest nuances. It is like comparing 2 cars driving at 50 miles, one with a 300Hp and the other with a 350Hp engine.

 

Accordion reeds produce a lot of strong harmonics, which are almost impossible to change. The effect of filtering/reflection is very limited. The only real alteration is through cassotto (amplifonic) placing. That’s why hybrid concertinas have a bright sound and are ‘fast’. It is almost impossible to make a bad performing hybrid. It is like that 300Hp car doing 50… there is no way that it won’t make it to that speed unless something is really wrong.

 

All hybrid concertinas play loud and fast, but they show serious limitations when it comes to expression (rigid spectrum), dynamics, harmonies (too many clashing harmonics) and air consumption. Accordion reeds are designed to do the opposite of what concertina reeds do: their performance is consistent and is not affected by airflow fluctuations (expression, dynamics) or filtering.

 

I think they are great entry/intermediate level instruments and from a players point of view will be more than sufficient for the majority of players. I also think hybrids saved the concertina from extinction because of their availability and price. However, from a musical point of view, they are not and never will be traditional concertinas. They don’t come close to the nuance in sound and flexibility of the harmonic spectrum. If you play concertina because of its unique sound, a hybrid will not do. If you’re more interested in the keyboard layout, types of music played on the instrument and like the accordion type sound, a hybrid would be a great choice.

 

Wim Wakker

Concertina Connection Inc.

Wakker Concertinas

[m3838]

I wonder which instrument you mean.

 

 

Geuns/Wakker with accordion reeds.

[ceemonster]

[but I can't dismiss out of hand the new genre of hybrid instruments] i'm not dismissing them out of hand or suggesting that they be dismissed out of hand. i'm saying, that given that they now cost thousands of dollars, plural, with many in the mid-$2Ks, the bar is higher. i have come to feel that thousands, plural, is not an optimal dough outlay unless the action and responsiveness are top-flight, period. i have owned two of them, and again, the craftsmanshp and cosmetics were lovely, but would not outlay the money for them in those price ranges if i had it to do over again. however, i would happily own one again within the specs i described above, and would probably make it my main session instrument, and might well take it just about everywhere with me.

Edited September 10, 2010 by ceemonster

[Jim Besser]

[

I think they are great entry/intermediate level instruments and from a players point of view will be more than sufficient for the majority of players. I also think hybrids saved the concertina from extinction because of their availability and price. However, from a musical point of view, they are not and never will be traditional concertinas. They don't come close to the nuance in sound and flexibility of the harmonic spectrum. If you play concertina because of its unique sound, a hybrid will not do. If you're more interested in the keyboard layout, types of music played on the instrument and like the accordion type sound, a hybrid would be a great choice.

 

/quote]

 

 

Exactly

 

I've had 3 hybrids. I continue to use 1 as a travel and bad weather instrument. It plays as well as my traditional instruments, in terms of action; it's far more reliable than my traditional instruments. Some people I play with prefer its sound. It's incredible lightness is balm to aching tendons.

 

But...it doesn't' sound like a concertina to me. It lacks the unique sound qualities that drew me to the instrument in the first place. And as a Morris player, I find the sound deficient. Objectively, it's as loud or even louder than my vintage instruments, but the harmonics result in sound that doesn't penetrate ambient noise nearly as well as the purer tone of a traditional instrument.

 

The modern hybrids have been a boon to the concertina community. But as you say, in the most critical ways they're different instruments.

 

And to address the OP's question: it's all personal. These are all good instruments. I've played all the hybrids, have owned 3, and have personal preferences - but that's all they are, personal preferences. Try some if you can. If you can't, list the attributes important to you and ask others (lightness, easy action, loud sound, cosmetics, etc.).

 

 

Edited September 10, 2010 by Jim Besser

[Dana Johnson]

Thanks for the precision. However this does not completely answer my question : as far as I understand the makers of "hybrid" instruments use the best quality reeds that you mention (a mano, or at least tipo a mano). So why do these reeds, which give full satisfaction when employed in melodeons, give a less satisfying result (to your opinion) when they are fitted into concertinas ?

Is there some kind of incompatibility between these reeds and the way they are mounted in concertinas, or with the action they are linked to, which prevents them from giving their best ?

 

I'd be interested to have the opinion of someone who has built (or at least repaired) concertinas AND melodeons, if there are any here...

 

Regarding the reed, quality of course counts, but a mano or not, the reeds are designed for accordions. There is no port directly underneath them as in a regular concertina reed pan, there is nearly zero relief angle in the window, the exception being reed plates that have a second wider area that goes part way through the reed plate making the inside of the window stepped, and in my opinion doesn't improve things much. This lack of relief angle doesn't seem to work well in concertinas, causing the reeds to require more pressure to play. Low notes don't need much if any since the long reeds move out of the plate pretty quickly as they swing. Short high reeds however need more relief to play easily in concertinas. Accordion reeds are generally a good bit stiffer than concertina reeds regardless of their quality, though this varies between reed sets with different stiffness ranges suiting different instruments and playing styles more or less well. In an otherwise well made concertina, this means that while perhaps a bit more difficult to start, the reeds can get quite loud. All this works in an accordion with it's large bellows chamber, and the other numerous internal differences from the reed blocks on, but for some reason the acoustics of the smaller concertina don't match these reed systems well. Some things help, like the reed chambers integral with the action board as opposed to the accordion style reed blocks used on poor quality older instruments as well as the larger Chinese models, but in the end, the reeds are just not a good acoustical match compared to good quality concertina style reeds.

There are a lot of variables you can change to help things out. For instance, thin reeds need less back relief, presumably because they swing farther and enter the free space past the block more quickly. But that reduces the maximum volume. Careful choice of mounting and wood can improve a reeds responsiveness as well as adjusting the chamber size. Unfortunately the faster responding chamber sizes also tend to decrease the strength of the fundamental, which make the reeds sound more accordion like. There is more than one way to make a good instrument, but the key to it is having everything match. This is true of a lot of other instruments as well. If you change one thing you have to change other things to bring everything back into sync. The problem in concertinas is that there is little understanding of how all the bits work together. If you were to approach a luthier, you could ask them to make you a violin suitable for chamber music, or one suited to solo performance and they would adjust the way they made the instrument to match the use. I think there are few concertina makers that could do that these days. Most consider themselves lucky if they have been able to refine one design to work really well.

Dana