Anglo Layout thoughts

[Alan Day]

A lot of us start our Anglo lives with a twenty button instrument,these become the dominant twenty,because when we change instruments instead of new thinking with the additional accidentals we continue to use the twenty as before thinking of the accidentals as extras instead of thirty buttons that are of equal importance.

The layout of the Anglo has not changed at all for many years now and we accept it as it is, but thinking of the button/note layout there is possible areas to think about. On a CG box for example we have a duplication of notes on the push the "G",

We have a duplication of the "A" on the pull on both Left Hand and Right Hand. That is four duplicated notes. On many there is a C Drone,why have a C push note when you already have one on the C Row I changed my G drone push to F and I use it more for chords than I ever would for a drone.

So these duplicated notes could be changed for other equally important accidentals. It would be awkward for those switching over from the old layout ,but for those accepting the instrument for the first time it would be just like picking up any new instrument for the first time.

Al

[michael sam wild]

This one should run and run Al!

 

I came late to 3 row C/G Anglo from mouth organ and melodeon and just accepted it as two mouthorgans connected by bellows so I played it that way along the rows like a 2 row 20 button instrument and ignored the accidental rows. I think William Kimber did the same and he was my first serious influence.

 

like the bouncy feel and sound of a diatonic instrument but have worked on other ways of playing such as ITM (26 button Jeffries suits me) and more recently fuller chording ( 30 button Jones C/G) with lessons and workshops with master players.

 

Now I am inspired by Anglo players who have taken it further and want to explore populat tunes of yesterday and today that I love but I still want an Anglo and the diatonic feel!I assume I'll need some more accidentals

 

 

I'd love to see what people suggest about Anglo layout. (I may have to learn a duet system too( I have a Maccann duet but am making slow progress and can't see me giving up the Anglo)

 

 

I think it may have to be an Anglo with a lot of accidentals. I have a George Jones which is fully chromatic with lots of alternative buttons but using all the available notes leads to a slushy sound. I wonder what he sounded like on the music halls, apparently he was a great player of the Anglo

[Alan Day]

To carry your thoughts a bit further Michael if the accidental row became more dominant as buttons used,then some of the C and G row buttons then become your accidentals. Like you I still like the ability to use the punchy aspect of the Anglo, but with the benefits of what the Duet has to offer.It is just a different approach to playing the instrument and possibly how it is laid out.

If I was experimenting I think it would be the Right Hand C Row that I would alter, retaining the first two buttons C/B E/D

And the whole of the G row and work from there.

Al

[hjcjones]

Those duplicated notes do seem to be a waste, but to change them would be to destroy the underlying logic of the system. Of course, it would be possible to learn, especially for someone coming completely new to it without having to break existing habits, but I suspect it would be harder because the alternatives would just be random notes.

 

Also, because the duplicated notes fall most easily under different fingers, they offer different fingering opportunities. I find I make full use of all the duplicated notes Al refers to, because they offer me more choices.

 

I do agree that the lack of a push F chord (push C on a G/D) is a drawback and on my 31 key G/D the thumb button is tuned to C to give me this. On my 40-button C/G I have the push F on an extra button at the top of the G row, so I can also have the drone.

 

Anglo players seem always to have altered the accidental row or extra buttons to suit their individual style of playing. However I think you would mess with the core 20 buttons at your peril.

[cplayer]

hi alan

I seem to remember in the distant past that you told me that you altered

your r/h button layout but cannot recall to what. Is this still so,if it is can you give my brain a nudge

thanks

bryan

[Alan Day]

Those duplicated notes do seem to be a waste, but to change them would be to destroy the underlying logic of the system. Of course, it would be possible to learn, especially for someone coming completely new to it without having to break existing habits, but I suspect it would be harder because the alternatives would just be random notes.

 

Also, because the duplicated notes fall most easily under different fingers, they offer different fingering opportunities. I find I make full use of all the duplicated notes Al refers to, because they offer me more choices.

 

I do agree that the lack of a push F chord (push C on a G/D) is a drawback and on my 31 key G/D the thumb button is tuned to C to give me this. On my 40-button C/G I have the push F on an extra button at the top of the G row, so I can also have the drone.

 

Anglo players seem always to have altered the accidental row or extra buttons to suit their individual style of playing. However I think you would mess with the core 20 buttons at your peril.

I suppose thinking in the same logical way that the extra ten buttons (accidental row) could have been tuned to F and I would have been in more peril if 30 buttons had been tampered with. We accept the accidental row because that is how we buy it(possibly subject to our own alterations). We accept the twenty buttons in the same way.

Surely ITM playing on a CG box warrants different layout thought, but as I do not play ITM then I cannot make a suggestion as to alternatives note layout.

Al

[david_boveri]

there are always tradeoffs. i use those extra A and G notes for chords, melodies, and alternate fingerings. i especially use the G row G for chords... i would be pretty lost without it. that being said, i welcome innovation.

[hjcjones]

We accept the accidental row because that is how we buy it(possibly subject to our own alterations). We accept the twenty buttons in the same way.

Al

 

There is a difference - the core buttons do follow a certain logic, and one which is shared with other push-pull/suck-blow instruments like melodeon and mouth organ. The accidental row is partly for the notes which don't fit into that logic, and partly to offer alternative fingering choices.

 

I accept your point about tuning the outer row to F, but my argument would also apply - you'd still need to maintain the logic of that row and you'd still need some extra buttons to make it fully chromatic.

[Daniel Hersh]

This suggestion (a third row in F) is close to what the German makers initially did in their own approach to enhancing the 20-button concertina. Instead of the accidental row that the English makers added to create the Anglo-chromatic, the German makers' third row was pitched a whole tone below the center row, creating concertinas in keys like Bb/C/G or G/A/E. But this was of course still not fully chromatic, so more changes were made, with one branch of the evolutionary tree eventually becoming the 52-button Chemnitzer that's still played today. So I agree with Alan's basic point that other approaches to additional buttons are certainly viable -- but that having been said, I wouldn't give up my reverse G/A button on an Anglo since I use it all the time.

 

The Chemnitzer has lots of accidentals and lots of reversals, especially on the right-hand side. It's a great system if you're willing to put in the time to learn all the buttons. I wasn't willing to make that commitment myself in the end and went back to Anglo -- and now I'm learning Hayden Duet, but that's another story.

 

I suppose thinking in the same logical way that the extra ten buttons (accidental row) could have been tuned to F and I would have been in more peril if 30 buttons had been tampered with. We accept the accidental row because that is how we buy it(possibly subject to our own alterations). We accept the twenty buttons in the same way.

[Alan Day]

hi alan

I seem to remember in the distant past that you told me that you altered

your r/h button layout but cannot recall to what. Is this still so,if it is can you give my brain a nudge

thanks

bryan

Bryan as requested

This is my Right hand layout (First note Push/ Pull. ( ) are usual 20 button layout

Accidentals row D#/C#, F/E, G#/G, C#/Bp, A/D

Middle (C Row) F#/D#,( C/B, E/D,G/F,C/A, E/B ) C#/G#(Lower octave than accidentals row)

Bottom (G Row) D/C, ( G/F# ,B/A,D/C, G/E ) Bp/G#

Bottom accidental F#/F

 

I hope you find it interesting

None of the discussion points I have put forward are on my concertinas

I can post the Left Hand if anyone is interested.

Al After an hour on my tuner

 

Please note this topic is just for discussion for interest only. From these discussions could come innovation, or likewise nothing. Nice to talk it over however.

Edited November 30, 2009 by Alan Day

[Alan Day]

Here is a suggested prototype for a twenty button concertina

The G row is exactly the same as it is now(reducing my peril by half), but the C row is now modified using the first button LH and RH as an accidental

I have added what I think may be useful additions to those I have taken away.You may prefer other notes.

Al

[Will Fly]

Al - looking at your possible layout, I wondered if it might be an idea to include a Bb note somewhere. I'm no whizz on the concertina but, looking at it from a chord viewpoint (which a guitarist does automatically), a Bb note is an essential part of a C7 chord. I would assume that, in progressions, a nice C7 chord is a useful addition to the chord repertoire - as an F note is for the G7 chord.

 

Just a thought.

[Alan Day]

Al - looking at your possible layout, I wondered if it might be an idea to include a Bb note somewhere. I'm no whizz on the concertina but, looking at it from a chord viewpoint (which a guitarist does automatically), a Bb note is an essential part of a C7 chord. I would assume that, in progressions, a nice C7 chord is a useful addition to the chord repertoire - as an F note is for the G7 chord.

 

Just a thought.

Hi Will,it is an option and I only have four notes to play with. On the left hand I have A on the push useful position and it can be used for a minor chord. The same goes for G on the pull ideal for speed and the lovely G chord options. On the Right hand we have D#(push) and C#(pull), the C# is added for ITM playing, but this may not be preferred on the pull. So your note F could only replace the D#. I do not know which would be better.

Or I may be in peril, with my score now up to seven ,there is little hope.

Al

[Robin Harrison]

the Anglo has not changed at all for many years now and we accept it as it is

 

From these discussions could come innovation, or likewise nothing. Nice to talk it over however.

 

Alan, I so much agree with you,especially when you look athow much the 2, 2 ½ & 3 row button accordion/melodeons have changed.

I am very close to the completion of a Dipper and it is a slightly modified layout from a standard 38 key Jeffries. I was very encouraged as Colin sees it as very logical with its relationship to his “Franglo”.

The genesis of looking for a somewhat different layout came as I was increasingly finding it unsatisfying to not be able to play tunes on the anglo in the same way that I could on the 3 row (ADG) . On this instrument there are reverse notes that are simply not present on the anglo and that requires more bellows reversals of the anglo. The bellows reversals give a different punchy style to tne anglo but not phrasing choices.

With the extra reverse notes you can choose a different phrasing.....there are only extra notes not substitute notes. You don't lose this punchiness. I looked at notes I either never played or seldom played.....a G# & A# are useful but not such that I need them in both directions.

I suspect for many people this layout is irrelevant. If you are already an accomplished player, why change. I’ve read on this forum before discussion of the “essential nature’ of the anglo. It doesn’t change this but merely gives you more choices about how to play a tune.It’s somewhat like a 2 ½ row melodeon........... standard instrument plus a row of custom notes.

The person who may be more interested are not those who already have an established anglo style but someone who is either coming to it newly or finds some aspects of the standard layout constraining. If you are a duet player , cross row melodeon player , English concertina player ( or many others of course) who want to try the anglo, there may be some things that might drive you nuts. You have to either accommodate this or look elsewhere. I decided on a small variation from a standard 38 key layout.

I’ve managed to almost achieve what I want by sliding reeds around and have found the layout to be fantastic. It’s much easier to show than describe what it brings to the music but, for example, to be able to pretty much play the scale of G ( and from the D below ) in both directions of the bellows just opens up phrasing choices.

I hope this does not move your original thread away from where you want it to go, Alan, but the issue of innovation (or lack of it) is an interesting one. My layout is I think,an innovation,albeit a minor one. It offers an easier transition for any of the melodeon players who want to try anglo and not have to develop a new tecnique. I'm not assuming it is necessarily origial, but I have yet to see one that has addressed my particular needs and I think they may well be commonly shared by a others.

regards

robin

 

 

 

 

.

Dipper layout GD (final sent to Colin).doc

[Alan Day]

Robin I have just been looking at your Left Hand layout to see how it compares with mine.

We have very similar layout ideas but you may like to consider just the few notes on mine that are different

4th button notes accidental row you have E/A mine is E/F ,3rd Button notes G#/A#, mine is G#/B

G ROW 1st Accidental you have F/B mine is F/G#

D Row 1st Accidental you have C#/F# mine is C#/A#

Additional button I have A#/D# , The drone button notes C/G are the same as mine.

 

Most are personal choice, but I do use the lower F and B a lot in my playing and they are easy to get at.

Very similar ideas though. Not looked at the Right hand yet

Al

Edited December 3, 2009 by Alan Day

[Robin Harrison]

hi Alan....here is some of my reasoning

 

E/A mine is E/F

.The A is one tone above the very lowest G and I'm starting to find it useful to have in little base runs........a low F natural is one of the notes I've never used thus far so it was up for grabs.

 

3rd Button notes G#/A#, mine is G#/B

I've got the B under my index finger where it is easy to use but I can see yours seems more logical place at first blush..... until I actually use it in runs and then sometimes my fingers get tangled up.

It's like the Mccann approach where although notes seem to be distant from where logic might place them, they fall beautifully under the finger when needed. So my B stays put but I'm happy to have tried it there.But boy, what a useful note to have easily available.

An aside here on the right hand but continuing in this vein of thought of notes being distant.It seem odd to have a pushed C# on the highest button on the D row..........but when you get the hang of where it is and train your little finger to use it,it is a terrific button .Think of B-C#-B triplet Lemmie Brazil's #2.

After playing around with different notes for months, I realized what is more importrant than an apparently logical place, is an easily accessible place.

If you really need a note, you'll soon learn where it is And something this leads to which I'm sure you have found is that, particularly on the right hand, you tend to lose a sense of "home position" for your hand. It's a little unnerving to start but does become more comfortable.

 

I look forward to see if my layout makes any sense to you !

Best.......Robin

[Alan Day]

hi Alan....here is some of my reasoning

 

E/A mine is E/F

.The A is one tone above the very lowest G and I'm starting to find it useful to have in little base runs........a low F natural is one of the notes I've never used thus far so it was up for grabs.

 

3rd Button notes G#/A#, mine is G#/B

I've got the B under my index finger where it is easy to use but I can see yours seems more logical place at first blush..... until I actually use it in runs and then sometimes my fingers get tangled up.

It's like the Mccann approach where although notes seem to be distant from where logic might place them, they fall beautifully under the finger when needed. So my B stays put but I'm happy to have tried it there.But boy, what a useful note to have easily available.

An aside here on the right hand but continuing in this vein of thought of notes being distant.It seem odd to have a pushed C# on the highest button on the D row..........but when you get the hang of where it is and train your little finger to use it,it is a terrific button .Think of B-C#-B triplet Lemmie Brazil's #2.

After playing around with different notes for months, I realized what is more importrant than an apparently logical place, is an easily accessible place.

If you really need a note, you'll soon learn where it is And something this leads to which I'm sure you have found is that, particularly on the right hand, you tend to lose a sense of "home position" for your hand. It's a little unnerving to start but does become more comfortable.

 

I look forward to see if my layout makes any sense to you !

Best.......Robin

The F is fantastic of course for the F Chord FAC with base note F you have as I do the option of the higher F but so easy in that position.Also useful for French style music when you are playing on the pull,the recent Gatwick Express tune uses that note as the second base note into the tune.

The lower B than the one you are using gives more depth to the chord on the D row.

A matter of choice Robin that is the beauty of switching notes to suit your own playing style.

 

For ITM playing a CG box in D surely the layout can be improved ? Or is it perfect?

Also I am interested to know , is it possible on a standard CG twenty button box? Is the C# missing? Or can this be got around?

Al

[michael sam wild]

Alan

I lost track of this thread as I have been exploring modifications on a 30 button C/G to play in C, F, G , Am, Dm, Em mainly. Every time I thinlk I can change a reed a good reason not to crops up. As Howard said (I think) 'mess around at your peril !.'

 

 

Anyway to your question about a 20 button C/G 2 row for ITM tunes in key D

I have been trying Tobin's Favourite a favourite jig of mine, in D which needs quite a lot of c# notes on the RHS.

 

I've fudged it without the c# but it would be hard to pass muster as a solo , but OK in a session!

On a 20 button for ITM I thinlk I would sacrifice the highest f# on the G row ( a pull) for a c#. The high e (push) I've never used. In fact I was thinking of blanking that button off as my damaged RH 'pinky', which I can't flex fully, keeps hitting it when I play on the C row high b (pull) and b and f# sound horrible!

 

 

So I would favour c#/c# for the highest button on the G row of C/G 20 button

 

 

 

For 'English' tunes I really value the LHS A push/G pull on Accidental middle finger button and the E push /F pull on the pinky and wouldn't want to lose any of the other notes on the C or G rows so what do people suggest.

 

 

I await your final model with interest

 

Cheers

Mike

 

 

I've just been playing Tobins Favourite on the 30 button where the first RH accidental is eb push/c# pull and every time I play it I have mimed it with said pinky on the G row highest note button without actually deprssing it and I think I could soon get used to it

 

 

 

Mrs Crotty played mostly in G and a lot of older players played in C on the old German concertinas.. so one could easily do Tobin's in C (old fashioned way ) Dmin (Dorian) goes nicely on the C row and Bertram Levy (p35)gves a nice version of The Morning Dew , a reel which came from Michael O'Donahue of East Clare who was 82 in about 1975. The key signature is C and it has only two chords Dmin and C