High quality concertina made of all man-made composites/synthetics?

[Aldon]

Bowed, plucked, percussion, and woodwind instrument makers have taken the plunge in to high-quality synthetic instruments, but it seems that concertina makers are reticent. The only concertina (low-end) I know of is this one.

 

I have no problem with synthetics if the sound is musical. My main flute is a GUO Grenaditte (Grenaditte is a man-made material) and for me it out-performs any metal or wooden flute I've played.

 

I'd love to have an English concertina made with carbon-fiber ends, Kevlar/Goretex bellows, and silicon seals with space-age alloy reeds...

 

How about you?

 

Please discuss, dream, or dis'.

[Chris Timson]

Regardles of the desirability of such an instrument (and I have no feelings on this either way. Ask me again once I've played one) the problem is the drastic retooling any maker would have to handle these materials, given the relatively short production runs of most concertinas. Remember that the first thing any concertina maker has to do is to make their own tools, since there is nobody out there making tools for them and there are thousands of bits in a typical concertina. The only makers who have long production runs are making cheap instruments, so not much likelihood of change there either.

 

If it ain't broke ...

 

Chris

 

PS good topic for discussion, though.

[spindizzy]

Bowed, plucked, percussion, and woodwind instrument makers have taken the plunge in to high-quality synthetic instruments, but it seems that concertina makers are reticent. The only concertina (low-end) I know of is this one.

 

I have no problem with synthetics if the sound is musical. My main flute is a GUO Grenaditte (Grenaditte is a man-made material) and for me it out-performs any metal or wooden flute I've played.

 

I'd love to have an English concertina made with carbon-fiber ends, Kevlar/Goretex bellows, and silicon seals with space-age alloy reeds...

 

How about you?

 

Please discuss, dream, or dis'.

 

One of the main advantages of the delrin etc flutes seems to be the survival rate in high/low humidity places ... and rough sessions!

Even some Cnetters seem to have to use a bit of humidity to keep a wooden concertina going.

 

Might be a place for such a thing in the concertina world. And if it sounded good too it would certainly gain a following.

 

(But not in blue and yellow ... pleeeeaase)

 

Chris

[Aldon]

Regardles of the desirability of such an instrument (and I have no feelings on this either way. Ask me again once I've played one) the problem is the drastic retooling any maker would have to handle these materials, given the relatively short production runs of most concertinas. Remember that the first thing any concertina maker has to do is to make their own tools, since there is nobody out there making tools for them and there are thousands of bits in a typical concertina. The only makers who have long production runs are making cheap instruments, so not much likelihood of change there either.

 

If it ain't broke ...

 

Chris

 

PS good topic for discussion, though.

 

 

Thanks Chris. Good points. And a nice dose of cold, hard reality.

 

We need a wealthy benefactor who cares about concertinas enough to invest in the research.

 

Any takers?

[Chris Timson]

We need a wealthy benefactor who cares about concertinas enough to invest in the research.

If I win the lottery then I'll be putting my money into the development of a mass-produced English concertina type reed, which could then be supplied to all the makers currently using accordion reeds if they want them. Remember - you read it here first ...

 

Chris

[Robin Madge]

I remember the Dippers telling me about a concertina that had been made from some plastic material, probably Perspex, and it sounded terrible!

 

You need something with similar harmonic resonanses (spelling?) to wood but easier to work with and preferably cheaper.

 

Robin madge

[Anglo-Irishman]

I remember the Dippers telling me about a concertina that had been made from some plastic material, probably Perspex, and it sounded terrible!

 

You need something with similar harmonic resonanses (spelling?) to wood but easier to work with and preferably cheaper.

String instruments with synthetic parts were mentioned. Ovation guitars, with their one-piece plastic back and ribs, are quite well regarded, but the belly - the actual sounding-board - is still spruce or cedar. Could be that some components of the concertina, too, are more critical material-wise than others. I would imagine that the reed-pan, as the equivalent of a stringed instrument's sounding board, would be the most critical.

 

I agree that any material that sounds good is OK.

 

Cheers,

John

[Greg Jowaisas]

I had the opportunity to inspect and play a concertina made with a plexiglass (perspex?) reedpan.

 

It was quite disorienting taking off the end and looking though the reed pan at the reeds on the other side!!

The shoes were dovetailed into the plexi and the rest of the construction and materials were fairly traditional.

The sound was interesting but disturbing. The reeds would sound, and it was what I associate with a "concertina" sound but there was no sustain. The note would sound and as soon as the pad closed that was it. No resonance.

 

I don't know if that characteristic was due to the reed pan material or another facet of construction I did not take into account. I do know it did not make me enthusiastic to experiment with plexiglass reed pans.

 

But who knows, perhaps an incredibly "fast" player would enjoy that staccato lack of resonance.

 

Greg

Edited November 26, 2009 by Greg Jowaisas

[Dana Johnson]

Bowed, plucked, percussion, and woodwind instrument makers have taken the plunge in to high-quality synthetic instruments, but it seems that concertina makers are reticent. The only concertina (low-end) I know of is this one.

 

I have no problem with synthetics if the sound is musical. My main flute is a GUO Grenaditte (Grenaditte is a man-made material) and for me it out-performs any metal or wooden flute I've played.

 

I'd love to have an English concertina made with carbon-fiber ends, Kevlar/Goretex bellows, and silicon seals with space-age alloy reeds...

 

How about you?

 

Please discuss, dream, or dis'.

There are man attractive things to me as a concertina maker about uniform ie. predictable, materials. To this end synthetics can be attractive (if they are also visually attractive ) There are down sides though. We tend to think of synthetics as being easy on the wood supply for harder to find species and cuts. but often their manufacture is less sustainable than the"natural product" The big issue though is that so far we know that the nature of some of the materials used has a strong influence on the concertina sound, but not a lot of understanding of why, so designing a suitable replacement doesn't have a very good starting point. Other things like reed alloys are already " synthetic" and are very well suited for the job with no need for change since the requirements for good reed material are shared with other things in the industrial world and a lot of research has gone into producing them. I would love a decent replacement for leather for the valves, but as long as we still eat goats, I can't think of a better use for the hides than concertina bellows, and enjoy working with the leather. I already use this Dymond wood stuff for the end frames, but only because it looks very nice, and eliminates the messy and smelly and potentially hazardous finishing process that natural woods require. I know some people like french polish, but while beautiful, I still am not convinced of its durability despite protestations to the contrary. The idea that synthetics would be easier to mass produce isn't likely a the case. People have been mass producing with natural materials since nearly forever. ( look at your leather shoes, and household furniture ) What mass production needs is a guaranteed large market. The methods will follow. For the finest instruments, I doubt if you can get away from the one off, hands on manufacture since it seems to be attention to the littlest things that add up to make the difference between a great instrument and a truly remarkable one no matter what materials are used. I am open to anything as long as somebody else is making it, but for me the proof will be in the playing. Right now, I can't imagine the fussiness of laying up a carbon fiber reed pan or cutting the end fretwork in that stuff ( It is Hard! ) Give me a nice block of Maple please.

Dana

[yankeeclipper]

I might go with the synthetic concertinas if high quality instruments could be made at appreciably lower cost. Low enough to make it worth giving up the individual character and beauty of hand-crafted wood and leather. Traditional concertinas acquire a patina, a history and a personality as they age. They're not cranked out by machines, and they don't all sound alike. In a time of increasing conformity, individualism becomes a value in itself.

[Larry Stout]

 

String instruments with synthetic parts were mentioned. Ovation guitars, with their one-piece plastic back and ribs, are quite well regarded, but the belly - the actual sounding-board - is still spruce or cedar. Could be that some components of the concertina, too, are more critical material-wise than others. I would imagine that the reed-pan, as the equivalent of a stringed instrument's sounding board, would be the most critical.

 

I agree that any material that sounds good is OK.

 

Cheers,

John

 

The cello player in my band has a (rather high end) five string cello made from carbon fiber (including the sound board). The bridge is wood, but other parts are man made. He likes it because it is fairly impervious to weather. It does change pitch in response to temperature in ways which are not like wood. Carbon fiber bows have also come a long way.

 

Still, the components of a concertina are not from endangered species (unless you have a tortoise shell end, but nobody is making those anymore) the way bows are (pernambuco is getting scarce). Traditional materials seem to work well unless you are subjecting them to extremes in humidity.

 

In general I found Dana's post convincing on materials and Bob Herrington's (and the construction process slide show on Wim Wakker's site) convincing on the use of new manufacturing techniques (CNC mills and laser cutting of fretwork).

[Chris Timson]

I might go with the synthetic concertinas if high quality instruments could be made at appreciably lower cost.

Not sure it would make much difference. Hear the wise words of Colin Dipper: "Half the value of a concertina is in the reeds". This is because of the work that goes into them. I think you can only reduce the cost if you can reduce the effort. If synthetic materials can contribute to that then great, but personally I can't see them making much odds.

 

Chris

[m3838]

I might go with the synthetic concertinas if high quality instruments could be made at appreciably lower cost.

Not sure it would make much difference. Hear the wise words of Colin Dipper: "Half the value of a concertina is in the reeds". This is because of the work that goes into them. I think you can only reduce the cost if you can reduce the effort. If synthetic materials can contribute to that then great, but personally I can't see them making much odds.

 

Chris

 

We forgot about the durability. Leather, as far as I understand, is unbeatable in this regard. Plastic bellows will not hold for long. Space age plastics are not cheap. The only benefit from plastic would be molded parts, so instead of assembling an instrument out of Lego set you'll have just 4 peices plus bellows. the rest is buttons/springs/reeds. The reeds can be inserted right into the body bypassing the shoes etc.

That plastic Anglo is actually quite good, by the way.

[Woody]

We forgot about the durability. Leather, as far as I understand, is unbeatable in this regard. Plastic bellows will not hold for long.

Well the word "plastic" covers an enormous range of materials with differing properties. I'm sure with a lot of research a suitable substitute could be found that could replace leather. The question is - unless there's some significant advantage in sound, performance or price - why bother? The world's not exactly running out of cows. With the body - wood is readily available and its acoustic properties are well known, so again IMHO there would need to be a significant advantage before it would really make sense to use something else.

 

The only advantage I can see of a plastic one is resilience. I used to have one of those blue plastic ones, not great to play but it's made of ABS. It got dropped off a 5' wall onto concrete once and didn't even have a scratch. Try that with a Dipper!

Edited November 28, 2009 by Woody

[bellowbelle]

I just tried to vote 'other' and was told I already did vote, so... not sure, but maybe I did.

 

I like the idea of having a 'vegan' concertina, though I am not at this point in my life a total vegan (and I happily play my concertina regardless of it's components).

 

But, I would also want to know how eco-friendly the manufacture of such a concertina would be.

[JimLucas]

Not many folks voting in this poll, so far.

 

I chose "other", because my answer is neither an unqualified "yes" nor an unqualified "no".

 

Would a synthetic (man-made material) concertina appeal to

me

?

I would certainly not find an instrument more appealing simply because it was made of "man-made" materials. Nor even of "modern", "high tech" man-made materials. (Note that all the metal parts in a standard concertina are of one alloy or another, all of which certainly qualify as "man-made".)

 

The appeal of any concertina is on an individual basis. I'm interested in playing an instrument, not a concept.

[Woody]

I just tried to vote 'other' and was told I already did vote, so... not sure, but maybe I did.

 

I like the idea of having a 'vegan' concertina, though I am not at this point in my life a total vegan (and I happily play my concertina regardless of it's components).

 

But, I would also want to know how eco-friendly the manufacture of such a concertina would be.

Certainly wood can be sourced from woodlands that practice sustainable management, though how many of the most favoured hardwoods would come into this category I don't know. As for the use of leather, while not vegan it is sustainable to the extent that the leather is effectively the waste product from producing other products (dairy & meat). The skins will be left after processing so it's probably "better" if it's used to make music rather than being wasted. That said, proceeds from the sale of leather does help to support the economic model of dairy farming, though I doubt if the dairy industry would change if this income stream was removed.

 

If you got a breakdown of the components it should be possible to arrive at an approximation of the instrument's ecofootprint using published data.

[JimLucas]

If you got a breakdown of the components it should be possible to arrive at an approximation of the instrument's ecofootprint using published data.

Seems to me that the result could depend significantly on who published the data.