wes williams

We have had a Lachenal 'made' by Staff reported here a while back: 29445 Anglo: 20 key; WE; BB; BR; 5-fold; "Chas. Staff, Melbourne" and Staff seems to have been in business circa. 1872-1878

That just about sums it up, Daniel - we usually say about instruments of this type, even with Jeffries markings, that they were at least partially made by Crabb. But we've also seen instruments like this branded as Ball Beavon. Since Jeffries of this type usually have stamped letter markings, and this has no Crabb markings, it looks like it was probably made by Crabb for sale by another dealer under his own name. 'H.E.Hare' hasn't popped up as concertina dealer anywhere in my researches.

Well, we should remember that the project to digitise these records was only completed a few months back, and that there is no full-time funded concertina research under way - excepting perhaps what Alan Atlas manages to fit in. Most research is done by a handfull of spare time hobbyists, so its natural that it progresses slowly. Stephen is one of the few people who has actually studied the ledgers as a whole, rather than - which I expect is the more usual way - just looking for a few entries for concertinas owned. Something along the lines of your suggestion was envisaged in the original long term plan, but there is a limit to what can be acheived in any given time frame. So perhaps we should accept that the ledgers have actually been released *EARLY*, to open research at all levels to all comers, rather than held up while 'expert opinion' determines how they should be interpreted

The Wheatstone ledgers don't really start showing these numbers until 1912 (SD01 page27) but we know they were already in use, so thanks for reporting them. Is anybody aware of earlier instruments with "batch numbers", or could they have started with the move to West Street in 1905? Could this be a pointer for dates in this "unledgered" period?

I think the 'Jones did not make duets' came originally from Frank Butler, who also said his grandfather had 'a marked aversion to them'. But if this instrument was a late 'Jones', perhaps it represents something Jones's sons were trying out, rather like Edward Chidley junior did with Wheatstone (about the same time) after taking over from his father - introducing the Aeola, and reintroducing the Duet and the Anglo. I'm glad you've commented on the aluminium ends as probably being later, since I suspect the material used is duralumin - an alloy we all now call aluminium and invented in 1908/10 (dates differ) as part of the German military research. Although aluminium would have been available c.1905 ( London's Eros statue was cast from it in 1893) it was soft, and a lot less stable than duralumin and would have shown some corrosion. Duralumin was in general used by 1920, and Wheatstone records (SD01 page 138) show they were making ends from it at this time.

Portsmouth was also a minor 'hit' for Mike Oldfield a few years back. Now that's what I call 'a cover version' of an oldie

Try looking at this thread on Lachenal Dating. If it doesn't answer your questions satisfactorily, pop something on the history forum.

Not that I'm aware of Richard. I'd suspect that these cases would have been outsourced to specialist case makers and the variations you see might be variations in source as much as date. But there might be a way to date the cases from the locks, an idea that Brian Hayden suggested.

Not quite, Dan. What I said was that the style things came out in naturally for me wasn't the same as Peter's, although that's where I started. I don't think of Peter's style as EPMS, but something he came up with to fit singing accompaniment. Al's post above is putting a tighter definition of what I was trying to describe generally as EPMS. Its not just chords, its also rhythm and the way the accompaniment is put together. But I think both styles that Al describes above are EPMS based variants. Excuse the misquote, but that's something many of us would like to think about Peter.

Then let me introduce the concept of EPMS (English Popular Music Style). I've lain awake into the early hours trying to put what was in my head, often unrealised, into something tangible, but I fully expect (and hope for) strong disagreement. EPMS was the essence of the way the untutored English make music. It was never static, but changed over the years, with roots back in rounds and glees. Dan has demonstrated snapshot recordings of Victorian concertina variant EPMS in his tutor examples. For me personally, there is as much EPMS in an English pub piano player knocking out ‘Down at the Old Bull and Bush’ or ‘To be a Farmer’s Boy’ as there is in the playing of Kimber, Tester or Kilroy (KTK). You don’t need to think of this ‘English’ style as being miraculously re-invented post 1950, because its EPMS basis had never been lost. Admittedly (as Al demonstrates) the finer points of concertina variants had been almost lost, but the EPMS essence was still there, and people like John Kirkpatrick and Roger Digby created their own personal variants of EPMS (as did KTK earlier) to produce something we now bundle into the term ‘English Style Anglo’. Now I’ve recognised EPMS, it allows me to take the concept further – EPMS wasn’t usually learnt, but was usually absorbed from the music you heard around you. Although instruction on how to apply EPMS to an instrument could be handed down through the generations, EPMS itself was the carrier. Requoting an earlier post –How many times have we heard a phrase like ' Well I just took it up and made it sound like I thought it ought to' from a notable player?- now makes perfect sense if we accept EPMS. I realise that EPMS was all around me as a kid in the 1950s, even though it was mixed with Jazz, Skiffle, Pop and Blues. As kids of about eight with no musical instrument knowledge, we marched around the playground with harmonicas, making up bands, and what style did we play in? EPMS! When I first picked up a concertina, I’d only really heard Peter Bellamy play one. I slavishly copied what he played on his LP for starters, but when I tried anything else - why did my playing come out like more like Roger D. or John K than Peter? EPMS! Roger Digby wrote: Another thread on this site is accepting the fact that players are now mostly middle aged. How many prominent Anglo players are over 60? If my generation is to be seen as the next best thing to real traditional Anglo players - the next stage in the venerable and important transmission of traditional music - then we must ensure that we take our responsibilty seriously and show total respect for the music we are continuing. Roger’s worry about if he qualifies as a real traditional musician can be finally answered – Yes! You do, Roger, because your playing is based on EPMS - the same as the KTK traditions,Bob Cann,etc were. But this leads on to a question Dan and people nearer his age (I assume 'you were there and I was not!' indicates he is too young) can answer better than I can: Where is EPMS now? I can’t see much evidence of it after the mid 1960s, unless it has changed into something I no longer recognise. Did most of the ‘young tradition’ notables like Tim Van Eyken grow up where EPMS was carried by their parents via the Folk Revival? Should this really be part of 'Henk's Question 3' thread. Is the whole of EPMS now in real danger of being lost, rather than just the 'folk' aspect? Finally, Dan wrote: The Irish-type players have written some excellent tutors in the last 10 years; why don't you English keepers of the "English" style get moving and do the same? But how many of those writers were Irish living in Ireland? I think we have the same problem in England that Tony Crehan described in Ireland when talking about Larry Lynch’s ‘Set Dance’ book – It’s a great book, but we could never have written it because we live inside it. It takes someone from outside to see things that you don’t realise need to be seen. [Howard - Many thanks! Great pictures, and already in the ICA archive. Could Glossop be an early Esperance revival side? ]

You've gone slightly wide of the main point I was trying to make, Chris. We've had the same kind of situation in recent years when a classical musician (I'll call him Mr. A) reviewed a Kimber recording without realising the nature of Kimber's style and how it related to dance (having had no experience of it) - which was strongly contested (in a firm, but friendly manner) by a certain ECM musician (I'll call him Mr. D). The ICA folk were in the same situation when they referred to 'the jerky accents which are a characteristic of anglos' - which I take to be an indication of this 'English style' that we are discussing, but in its 'popular music' context . Although I accept what you (and JK) say as generally true, why was Ken Loveless the ICA President throughout this period if the anglo was so 'second class'? Perhaps we wrongly tar the 'old' ICA with the brush held by its more vocal members, rather than the silent majority. And that reminds me of not too long ago here!

Well, my answers were 'quick and dirty' and never intended to be treated as 'definitions', or complete theories. How can we honestly produce even a 'general theory' using only Kimber or Tester as representations of the English 'style' unless that style is inherently part of being English and our way of making music? Do the 1950s/1960/70s players represent the last generations to grow up within an environment where this "Englishness" was just hanging on, before the ravages of Jazz, Skiffle, Bill Haley, Elvis, Eric Clapton, Ozzy Osborne, etc finished it off? In my lifetime we've gone very much from home-made entertainments to home entertainment systems. First Dan Worral: .. sorry to disagree with some of you, but this type of playing is clearly as old as the instrument itself.... Its older. English popular music has been based on harmony and counterpoint since at least the days of rounds and catches, before we took it from voice to instrument. Why did Wheatstone spend so much effort trying to create a duet system? Because 'duetting' is an important of our particular popular musical heritage. It's also an answer to your question 'Why don’t the Irish play in this manner, if "English" style is so ancient?' - which you answer yourself by saying '..Irish music was almost entirely a solo tradition until well into the twentieth century..' - not only was it solo, but it was almost entirely melodic, with harmonic music being an exception. In terms of tutors, I agree with Robin Madge - just because its written down doesn't mean that it has influenced this esoteric 'style' we are trying to discuss. I'd say that it just reflects the 'style' that our popular music was played in, irrespective of instrument. How many times have we heard a phrase like ' Well I just took it up and made it sound like I thought it ought to' from a notable player? It is my opinion that Kimber and his father were most likely the first amongst Morris musicians to apply the "English" style... Can anybody point out any other genuinely traditional morris/ritual/dance musicians who played concertina that we could use as other examples? I've seen lots of melodeons in old photos of sides, but struggle to remember a single concertina (Upton-on-Severn maybe? or was that - oh shudder ye of Morris Ring - a female dancer!! ?). The examples in photos I've seen usually seem to suggest a 'village band' or 'processional' situation. Now Roger Digby: I would want to see more evidence for Wes' idea (style= 1950s morris melodeon players) I don't think I can provide any hard documentary evidence, but I would also point to the rise of the G/D anglo in 1960/70s England, as discussed in other threads, as another part of the same notion. On one side its an extension of what I've tried to put over above - we play the way we do because its part of our Englishness - but on the other side consider how many in our lists of 1970s players came to concertina (any type) via melodeon and/or morris. We talk about how easy and cheap (£5 - £25) it was to find a concertina in those days, but perhaps forget that it was even simpler and cheaper(£1.50 - £10) to find a melodeon. A concertina might need a few months wait, and even then you might get offered something strange (I got a Maccann first!). In the early 70s I could have bought a different melodeon every week. So when the melodeon player changed instrument to the concertina, he took his Melody@right,Accompaniment@left technique for playing, and could play almost immediately; only later (or in some cases never) finding that his Om-pahs were considerably less restricted. However, I can provide some evidence that a 'jerky' (non classical? rhythmic?) style of anglo playing was considered normal 1950/60/70, perhaps earlier, from various ICA Newsletters, and offer up another 'Anglo Great'. Nov 1966 Tommy Williams tells us that he has a recording of Mr. Holland, of Crows Nest, Dorset, and has never in his life time of experience heard such excellent anglo playing. Hr. Holland is reported to have a perfect legato phrasing, quite devoid of the jerky accents which are a characteristic of anglos. Tommy says the sound is indistinguishable from that of a good "English" player. Hr. Holland plays a 40 key Anglo and does not read music. May 1968 Yet another Sound of Music came from Eric Holland, who proved to be an ANGLO-player extraordinary. His playing is characterised by a strong melody line, with a true legato rarely heard on an Anglo, and a background of delicate accompanying figures. While we had some reservations in respect of his almost continuous forte in the selection and a waltz encore, his subsequent folk dances had excellent piano effects. As a concertina player we rate him high; as an Anglo player very high indeed. Sept 1977 Mr. Holland, of Swanage, Dorset, died on July 15th of a heart attack. Jim Harvey writes: He joined the I.C.A. in January of 1964, but I knew him long before. He was a great friend, and won the 'Ear' Players class at the 1975 Festival. He played the Anglo in his own style and produced music more like a Duet Concertina. We mourn the loss of a great player and friend. --------------- Since many players of non-English nationality describe the 'style' as 'more like a duet', its interesting to imagine what Eric Holland could have sounded like.

I'll have a stab at answering Chris! (and likely I'll get stabbed for it ) 1) What actually constitutes English style or the English approach to playing the anglo? Melody mainly right, accompaniment mainly left. 2) What is its source or sources? Melodeon players for morris sides c.1950 onwards who wanted to try playing something different - and the anglo was the obvious easiest next step.

That's a fascinating tale or three, Simon, and I'm sure you'll have lots more responses. I wonder if your Charlie Streamer could have been old enough to be the 11 month old boy in the 1881 census at 17 Vespasian Terrace, Roman Rd, East Ham? If so, his father's name was William. Edit: Or if he was nearer 70 than 90, maybe Charles Thomas Streamer born June 1908 at West Ham - father's name Charles William Streamer(?), (and perhaps the same Charlie Streamer above?). Give us some more clues Edit 2:Sorry- should have made uncertainty over father's name clearer! More research needed. The 'C.Jeffries. Maker' marking on the instrument probably means that he would have been working for Jeffries sometime before about 1893. Later C.Jeffries have a 23 Praed St address in the stamp.

Its very early days, but we can hope that sometime in the future there will be a co-ordinated effort in transcribing these ledgers, and producing indexes based on serial number, name of purchaser, model, cost, etc. Its quite difficult to see how to produce transcriptions with enough data to satisfy every possible requirement, but if anybody does happen to produce anything (for instance just all the serial numbers on a single page), I'd be happy to store them up for lookups in the meantime, as I already have C104a (1 -1500) transcribed as a starter. I did a very quick study on a few months sales in a small sample transcription from the ledgers (provided by Margaret Birley's predecessor, Frances Palmer) which seemed to show distinct 'clumps' of serials - and as Stephen says above, Wheatstone were using multiple suppliers.

Who you calling old ? - but seriously, one of these badges is the only non-document/photo item in the ICA archive. It belonged to Eileen Jones, who is pictured with Frank Butler in Richard Carlin's PICA article. I'll get a picture of it posted here next time I'm digging in the depths.

I suppose that the roughness of the workmanship might remind you of some of Jones' cheaper instruments, but the designs are very much copied from Lachenal models (maybe that's why he never put his own name on one ? ). <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Almost thirty years ago I did some work on a basic unmarked 20 key anglo. To my inexperienced eyes, there was nothing very different about it from a Lachenal, apart from the round staple-like pivot posts, like we see here. By elimination, I thought it must have been a Jones. Are you saying that this style of action isn't Jones? If so, perhaps other unmarked instruments of the same make have been passing through restoration and repair, and being attributed to Jones. Thanks for the genealogy. I spent most of the day watching the Live8 stuff . Perhaps we should note for other readers that inspite of his prominence in concertinas here, George Jones was usually listed as either a Harmonium Maker, or a general Musical Instrument Maker, so his association with the reed organ trade was very strong.

We'll put that right straight away: 1884 WM. HY. TIDDER 144 JAMAICA ST STEPNEY 1885 No Entry 1886 As 1884 1888 Tidder Wm. Henry, 144 Jamaica st. Stepney E 1888 As 1884 1890 No Entry 1891 Tidder Wm. Henry, 144 Jamaica st. Stepney E 1892 228 MILE END RD 1894 As 1892 1895 Tidder Wm. Henry & Sons, 228 Mile end rd E 1896 As 1892 1902 Tidder Wm. Henry & Son,228 Mile end rd E 1921 Tidder & Son 62 Backhurst st Bethnal grn E1 I don't know which version of my notebook you are working with, but the latest has a note: Possibility of link with George Jones?: 1851 Tidder Wm. Oilman 3 Evaline place, Commercial rd east So could Tidder have been one of Jones' sucessful apprentices that he mentions? Is that why Dave Elliott and I both thought of Jones as the possible maker? Thanks for the Free Reed Organ site, its a very useful resource.

If it is a Jones then the serial number puts it around 1855 <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The serial numbers need to be used with caution. They are derived from a simple start date/end date/highest serial graph. Although Jones literature claimed 'founded 1850', Jones implies that he started making anglos not long before Jabez Austin's death in 1857 (read this). We just don't know enough about Jones instruments numbers (single series? multiple series? model coded? etc), so if this is a Jones, it wil be driving another point into the serial versus date graph. But Stephen Chambers has arrived back, so perhaps he will have some insights.

That's correct for later instruments Tony, but the trade mark only arrived in the late 1870s, so earlier instruments don't have it. But nothing about this instrument looks Lachenal to me; the woods used are a different variety to Lachenal, the number stamp uses a different font, etc. Unless anybody else has any suggestions, it looks like the opinion here is going to be for Jones.

At first glance, I don't think this is a Lachenal. I'd say perhaps a Jones, because the action posts are wire, rather than flat plate, but I'll leave it open to folks with more experience of the insides to comment, while I study it for longer.

Except (sorry Howard!) Lachenal didn't use batch numbers, that was Wheatstone. But Lachenal numbers can be tricky to read, and sometimes they get divided by the chamber walls on the reed pans, which makes people think they have two smaller numbers. With a Lachenal, the serial is usually stamped on almost all the main component assemblies (reed pans/ bellows/ends). The 'action' characteristics vary with maker. Lachenal have a flat brass sheet post, and the lever pivots underneath it. Other makers (like Wheatstone and Jeffries) use a rivet as the pivot, and the post and lever are held together by the rivet.

Hi Wayland, The fact that its got STEEL REEDS stamped onto the hand rest suggests that it could be a Lachenal, although it would have to be a bit later than the 1850s. Does it have any other marks on the handle? Lachenal were in business as individual makers roughly 1858 - 1933, with anglos starting a few years later. The usual way of deciding is to look at the pivots and levers joining the buttons and the pads. Did you get it that far apart?

I'll wait eagerly to hear what you have to say Wendy, but the period of this letter and Jenny Lind may be more concertina related than just a tune we play that bears her name. I read the name as something more along the lines of "Mrs Eloise Kantzow", which google seems to indicate mostly as originally from Sweden.

John Bell's is the "love and seduction", but "completely different from the Irish song of the same name" it isn't. My memory may be fading, but I was sure I'd heard Irish 'Foggy Dews' in the same genre, back when SO'C was still screaming at nuns from her cradle . Turns out this song is well known in England and Ireland, even recorded by Irish tenor John McCormack in 1913 as part of an "Irish" song series (3 years prior to the Easter Uprising). Lots more info here and here for starters for any poor old geezers as confused as I am. Point of order: Does Jim's response as quoted in my previous message above say 9:16am and my original say 10:02am to any of you? Is this a time warp? Wonder what'll happen with this message?