Little John

I'm no expert, but I was under the impression South African instruments often have ten or so folds. Could that be its origin?

And I believe a member of this forum has one of them, in rather battered condition and awaiting conversion to the Crane system ...

Very nice sound. I expected to listen on my laptop but it actually came out through the hi-fi!

There's no accepted definition of "long scale" but generally longer reeds are considered to be better. They have more dynamic range and more sensitivity to low pressure (the two are linked). It's subjective, but they might also have a better tone than shorter-scale reeds. LJ

I agree with pretty much everything John @Anglo-Irishman says, in particular pointing to the way the nature of the limitations of the Elise and the 35 button Crane differ. However one point needs to be corrected: not all chords are available on the LH of a 35 button Crane. Specifically A major, Bb major, B minor and B major are not. (Neither is Bb minor, should you ever find a need for it!) But it requires the addition of only two or three buttons to overcome most or all of this deficiency. On the RHS of a 35 button Crane the significant notes missing are the top A and B. The 48 button Crane overcomes all these shortcomings but, as both @charleschar and I have indicated, 40 or 41 buttons is probably enough for most people. So if some current maker of budget instruments wanted to add a Crane to their portfolio (at minimum cost and size) that's probably the size to be looking at. Unless they wanted to offer a 35 as a real starter instrument and a 45 as an upgrade. LJ

Interesting question and a good starting point. The Hayden and the Crane both have an obvious logic to their layout. (I think Brian Hayden once said on this forum the he probably wouldn't have invented his system if he'd been aware of the Crane at the time.) But their logic is very different and what might suit one person might not suit another. So it would be good if both systems were readily available to try out. There's a curious reversal in availability. Reasonably-priced Haydens are available (Elise and Stagi), but vanishingly few high-end concertina-reeded Haydens exist. The opposite is the case with Cranes. And yet interest in the Crane system seems high: why else would Alex be making at least as many Cranes as he is Haydens? So if, despite the availability of good Crabb and Wheatstone Cranes, there is still a demand for really high-end Cranes it seems likely there would be a demand for entry-level models. This is a bit of a conundrum! I learnt on a 35 button Crane (and a very useful start it was too) but it does have its limitations. So if a 35 button were offered it would need to be viewed rather like an Elise - a good taster but something you will probably expect to trade up from. And yet, as @charleschar indicates, only a few buttons more gives you an instrument you could probably live with forever (except for hankering after a high-end instrument). This 41 button instrument for example has very few limitations for what most people want to play on a duet. I could play virtually all my repertoire on it.* LJ * I must confess I would have to have the (bass) C#3 tuned to B2. That would supply the one chord otherwise missing (B minor). I also use it frequently for a first inversion of G major.

I hoped you would! I'd love to do so myself but I don't have a Windows machine to run your programme on. LJ

I don't really see why, unless you're misreading the layout. Fourths are the "problem" (like they are on a Crane anyway); the two notes being in the same column. For the same reason open fifths are the "problem" on an English. But not really a problem in either case. Or is it something different I've missed?

I'm sure many Hayden/Wicki aficionados would say "yes", but it is not my intention to re-open that debate! I'm prompted by the posting of this unusual duet. It's similar to the Wheatstone duet (but with five columns instead of four) and to the continental (or "chromatic") button accordion (and Tona's custom concertina, with three rows (rather than columns) arranged by the same principle). I'll refer to it as the Five Column Chromatic system, or 5CC for short (making the Wheatstone duet the 4CC system). Below is attached a button layout. Some of us in the earlier posting were sceptical, including me. I remarked that five columns was an odd choice. After all, with 12 notes to the chromatic octave the 3CC, 4CC and 6CC (if it exists) would all repeat after (respectively) 4, 3 and 2 rows. The 5CC system doesn't repeat. But the more I thought about it, the more I realised the 5CC system has advantages over all the others. This is mainly because, like the Crane system, the vertical interval between buttons is a fourth. This interval features strongly in the diatonic scale. For example, in major, minor and mixolydian modes the first block of three notes is repeated exactly a fourth higher for the second block of three. This means the fingering pattern is repeated one row higher in the 5CC system. Similar repetitions occur as you go up the scale, and also occur in the dorian mode but at a different point. Does this matter? Well, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. I've spent a little while fingering the table while looking at the button layout and also silently fingering my Crane while imagining it to be a 5CC instrument. I have to say that the 5CC system felt most natural and intuitive. So much so that I'm tempted to say that it is, indeed, better than the Crane system. Here are a few more observations: The vertical interval in 5CC is consistently a natural fourth. On the Crane B-F is an augmented fourth, so playing either F-Bb or F#-B involves jumping columns. The scales of C, F and Bb (for example) all start in column 5 so all have identical fingering. On the Crane the fingering is similar but not identical as it has to be modified to take into account the "black" notes. There are inconsistencies in the placement of accidentals ("black notes") on the Crane. For example the low D# is adjacent to the D whereas the higher D# is adjacent to the E; which leads one to having to modify his fingering. The 5CC system does not seem to suffer this need for a slightly unnatural change of fingering. As against the other "CC" systems I'd make these observations: Triad chords are easily formed on 5CC (as they are on the Crane) because the three notes always fall in different columns. That's not true of 3CC or 4CC where two of the notes are always in the same column. This makes playing "oom-pah" accompaniment awkward. (I haven't checked for 6CC.) Playing a scale on 6CC required the use of four fingers on one row, spread across all six columns, which again is awkward. I'd be interested to know what others think about this. It seems to me that the 5CC system has much in common with the Crane but irons out the inconsistencies. For my part, if I were ten years or so younger I'd be very tempted to have one built (or to modify a Crane to the 5CC system) to give it a try. But I'm not, so I'll happily continue with the Crane system. Crane and 5CC comparison.pdf LJ

Sorry! Misread "dispensable" as "indispensable". Deleted content but can't remove post.

You're right, of course, David! The mental image I had was that eleven iterations brought you to the twelfth note, leaving an interval of a fifth to return to the start note; that fifth being equal to the others only if the tuning is ET. That's what I was trying to describe in the rest of the paragraph. Your clock analogy is nice. In ET the hours are the same length. Mean tone tuning (1/4 or 1/5 comma) makes the last hour too long while Pythagorian fifths make it too short.

This is one good reason to centre on A, but there's another. It may seem counter-intuitive but centring on A actually minimises the deviation from ET in the popular keys of G and D. I suspect there's a bit of confusion here (which also arose in an earlier discussion of temperaments). Ben, Paul and I are using "centred" in the sense of "matching ET" and tuning the other notes relative to that. The other notes will move increasingly far from ET as you go round the circle of fifths. Eleven iterations round the circle of fifth brings you back to the note you started with if you're using ET. (That's the whole point of ET.) Using pure (Pythagorean) fifths the final fifth is too small. Using 1/4 or 1/5 comma mean tone the final fifth is too wide. It's referred to as the "wolf fifth". Because it sounds so awful you can't really play in keys that involve the wolf fifth. This limits you to six good keys (anglo or duet) or eight good keys (English). "Centred" is sometimes used to describe where you place the wolf fifth, or the point in the circle opposite (really a pair of notes rather than a single note). Where you place the wolf fifth, and hence which keys you can play in, is a decision which is independent of which note you have perfectly in tune with ET. It's equivalent to deciding which sharps and flats you want. The English system gives you four sharps (F, C, G, D) and three flats (B, E, A). On a duet or anglo the choice is really between four sharps (F, C, G, D) and one flat (B) or three sharps (F, C, G) and two flats (B, E) if you have a bias towards flat keys for song accompaniment, for example. LJ

Nice looking instrument! As a matter of interest, what is the button spacing? (See my previous reply above.) LJ

It's a odd choice to have five buttons in a row. The Wheatstone 4-button layout repeats after three rows. A 6-button layout would repeat after two rows; but this doesn't repeat. Still, I suppose that's just the same as a Crane and I get on fine with that!

I don't have any experience of these two books. They probably weren't widely available almost 40 years ago when I started on the Crane. As a result I'm entirely self taught. I realise with hindsight that someone to give me a few pointers would have been useful in the early days but no-one else around me played a Crane and the internet hadn't been invented. I would agree with Kurt and RAc that it's best to use both hands together as soon as possible. As well as this thread there was another fairly recent one on how to finger fourths on a Crane. It made me wonder whether there would be some interest in me posting a couple of things aimed at budding Crane players. I had in mind something on fingering and adding accompaniment through the example of a simple tune. Nothing like an online tutor! Just a few hints.

I went through exactly the same thought process and calculations before having my new Holden Crane tuned in exactly the same way: fifth comma mean tone with A = 440Hz. I would endorse your recommendation of Ross Duffin's book on temperaments. The only slight annoyance is that he talks more about sixth comma mean tone than fifth comma. I can't imagine why anyone would choose sixth comma. One comment: you refer to equal temperament as being 1/11 comma. Logically it is 1/12 comma with reference to the Pythagorean Comma (produced by 12 stacked perfect fifths, so reduce each by a twelfth and Bob's your uncle - ET), which is approximately the same as 1/11 comma with reference to the syntonic comma.

I can't remember if I responded first time. I'm a Crane player (as you know!) but I'm an Apple user so can't help. LJ

OK, enough of the theory! How does it sound in practice? This is my initial take on the tune. https://www.instagram.com/p/CLrICt0BMxG/ LJ

I think it makes more sense to tune the Ab down to F - then it's on the side of the instrument you would expect and it maintains the alternation from one side to the other when playing a scale.

That's exactly what I meant by playing a seventh "by default". That's interesting. Is that because on the melodeon and anglo you can't play a C chord at the same time as G and C in the melody? Otherwise it would seem more natural to me to play C to cover both the third and fourth beats. Obviously that luxury is available to me on a duet. My avoidance of sevenths (in general but not absolutely) is just a personal preference. My purist days are long behind me, otherwise I wouldn't be playing a duet (or a concertina at all)! LJ

Thanks Rüdiger! That gives me even more interest in playing it as Bosham is a little village not twenty miles from me. LJ

You're welcome, Ben. Tuning temperaments are an interesting subject, to a few of us, at least! You can find lots of information on the internet, and lots of discussion of it on this forum. One key factor is that in equal temperament the major thirds are 14 cents sharp of a "pure" third. Because of the strong overtones in a concertina this can make it sound quite harsh. Quarter comma mean tone tuning makes them pure and hence much sweeter sounding. Most, or probably all, early concertinas were tuned this way. During the 20th century equal temperament gradually took over but there is a minority of concertina players reverting to mean tone tuning - usually fifth comma in which the thirds are not quite pure but still much sweeter than ET. I read in another context (tuning church bells) that most people can't distinguish a difference of 20 cents. An English concertina tuned to fifth comma mean tone with A = 440Hz will have a maximum deviation from ET of about 17 cents (the Ab). Players of mean tone tuned concertinas on this forum have never had anyone say "you're out of tune"!

He also offers a single action bass http://www.wakker-concertinas.com/B51.htm Lowest note is C2 though.

The way I read your chart is that, with two exceptions, the deviations from equal temperament are uniformly distributed across a range of about 45 - 50 cents. That's exactly what you would expect from quarter comma mean tone tuning. As to the outliers, the one shown at -50 cents is probably misrepresented. It is probably the note a semitone lower 50 cents sharp (and therefore almost within the expected band). The note shown as 60 cents sharp is probably the only one that is actually out of tune! LJ

Yes, but either way you get a D7. I have something of an aversion to using sevenths by default. I will use them only occasionally to add deliberate tension - usually in a slow air. To clarify, using D or D7 under the last note of the bar (C) would result in a D7. However I would be looking for a chord to harmonise both the third and fourth notes in the bar. So G and D ("Sussex") suggests a G chord whilst G and C ("Chain") suggests a C chord. The G on the third beat precludes a D chord other than in exceptional circumstances.