Tradewinds Ted

You just need to get her to play fiddle instead of violin!

My 20B Cg Lachenal from 1895 or so has the C on the draw at the bottom of the G row. It may not have been common, but it is common enough! That missing A doesn't exist anywhere else on the instrument, and I like to play the melody in the low range, so I do miss it for some tunes. On the other hand if the tune doesn't go down that far, having that C there gives me some nice low end double stops on the draw, useful for A minor or even C major, particularly when most of the surrounding phrase is in G on the push. On the original topic, thanks for the information. I'm considering whether to add something just inside the fretwork on the 30B I just bought, just to keep bits from falling into the works, and I hadn't figured out what that red material was on my 20B yet.

Yes, use the thumb button to fill the bellows with air before starting, or anytime you need to expand or contract the bellows without playing a note. How far to extend the bellows before playing depends on what you will be starting to play. With my CG anglo I would want fairly full bellows to start out on a sequence of G major chords all on the "push" but would likely want to start with very little air in the bellows if the opening phrase is in D major or A minor on the "pull". What else? The thumb button can be used to "gulp" air between phrases during a tune if needed, and with practice you can do this without too much interruption in the phrasing, although if you can find alternate fingerings to allow more balanced air intake as I mentioned before that is useful, because then you can choose your phrasing more easily. It is possible to depress the thumb button very slightly to allow a little bit of extra air movement even while playing notes, to help balance the air movement if most the notes are in one direction, but this takes a lot of practice because it requires a sensitive touch. Too much air with the thumb button and your reeds won't sound. I rarely succeed at this. Fanning technique - General advice is that this is a good idea to fan the bellows to keep them under control, but it does not seem a serious issue unless the bellows are extended rather far. I guess I do fan the bellows very slightly upward in the middle, that is to say slightly more open on the upper side. I avoid resting any part of the concertina on my knees when sitting, which helps avoid possible wear on the corners, but also means I don't need to make any adjustment to play while standing. I suppose that may be more difficult if you have a heavy concertina, as some of the less expensive ones can be. If this is a new concertina then stiff bellows may loosen up with use. If it is a used instrument then it is harder to guess whether any further change in bellows stiffness can be expected. I can't say much about treating the bellows joints, except to warn that anything used to soften the leather might also weaken the adhesives that hold the pieces together, and damage the card pieces. Hopefully someone else can offer some help here, or you could post that question separately in the building & repair forum. A search of that forum are may even turn up some previous discussion.

I'm assuming you mean bellows control so you don't run out of air. No video tutorial to offer, but one piece of advice when practicing, since I play 20B too, and am still pretty new: On a 20B it is very easy to play mostly along one row or the other, depending on the key of tune. But remember that some notes on a 20B are available in the other row, and in particular some are available in the other direction. So by thinking ahead you can balance the push/pull by choosing buttons from the other row. Now that I have started doing this more often, I find it a bit easier to play some tunes that used to cause me to run out of air. But I find it takes active practice to keep these alternatives in mind if I want to be able to do it on the fly while sightreading or sounding out a new tune! Really, practice and exploration is more powerful than a video, although others may have something great to recommend. Good luck!

Knee straps would require leg movements instead of arm movements, so I would imagine you lose some of the subtle bellows movements used to create accents and phrasing, even on an English or Duet. Certainly not practical with the direction changes required for an Anglo. I haven't really seen any floppy awkward twisting of the bellows at directions changes on my Anglo, but maybe that is a peculiarity of the thumbstrap arrangement on an English, or maybe the result of a tendency to play long phrases in one direction, so the bellows are sometimes extended farther than they can be controlled. Certainly, if you make the thumbstraps swivel, and remove the finger rest on an English as you have suggested, then the ends may need some other way to anchor them. Of course knee straps won't help at all for playing while standing. But I deliberately avoid resting any part of my concertina on my knees even while sitting, and haven't found it to be a problem to keep my Anglo concertina supported and under control, held completely freely in the air. I suppose it could be a fatigue issue with a bulky or heavy instrument though.

I can't answer your question about which instrument would suit your needs (although I enjoy the sound of a baritone) but perhaps I can still be of help. You mentioned playing contra dance tunes, and that concertinas are rare in Olympia, WA. They might not be quite as rare as you think! I used to live there and there is a lively music scene, but as a part-timer it can be hard to find connections. I assume you've found the contra dances at the South Bay Grange in Olympia, but just in case: http://www.olympiadance.org/ I don't recall a concertina at these dances, but I would certainly have welcomed it. I expect others would too. Dances in Tacoma too, really not that far away. http://www.tacomacontradance.org/ And another link to folk music in Olympia, Several different venues, all with lovely people. http://home.comcast.net/~burtdabard/ At the "medium-rare" sessions you are likely to find concertina players, although more likely anglo than english I imagine, as it will be mostly Irish music. I never saw a concertina at the Black Hills Picking Party, but good music just the same, worth checking out, to see if you are comfortable joining in. The monthly shanty sing is for chorus rich sea songs that everyone can join in on, often not accompanied, but sometimes people accompany themselves on concertina, Usually anglo. You'll also see the Hootenanny Revival at Traditions Cafe. These started after I moved away, but I know some of the people involved, and they must be a good time. If you haven't been to any of the evening concerts at Traditions Cafe, you need to find your way there too. An amazingly intimate setting, considering some of the excellent talent that plays there. http://www.traditionsfairtrade.com/pages/tradhome.html?../events/index.php~Content

Actually the G/D might not be too low for singing. Vocals often sound much clearer against a lower range instrument, instead of competing with an instrument in the same range. Part of why so many singers play guitar instead of mandolin. Guitar music is usuall plyed an octave below where the voice is written. Also, the effective range shifts up if you are avoiding the far left side anyway. That said, if you stay with C/G then you'll be in the same system as you current 30B so the learning can be directly tranferred. I do think that a 10B might be too limiting if you plan on singing with it, as there will only be one option for what key to play in for most songs. With a 20B you get two choices a 5th apart, so one usually will fit your voice well enough. I like the looks of that 21B Marcus Traveller, and the 1 extra button would make all the difference to me if I had it. But a 20B like mine costs about 1/3 as much, in good working condition. The question would be the size and weight for you, compared to your 30B

OK, here is a photo of my 20 button Lachenal, with the 6 1/4 inch measurement across the flats, for reference to the earlier posts, trying to compare sizes. Meanwhile: Are you having any more success with getting inside that 10B to see if it can be repaired? Good luck with it, or with finding something that works for you!

Another option if the one from the antique shop doesn't work out - I remembered that Tedrow has made some mini concertinas, and has some pictures on his website: http://hmi.homewood.net/mini/ and http://hmi.homewood.net/minicustom/ I have no idea what price he puts on these, or what kind of wait would be involved, but I imagine you could contact him and find out. He might even have other options to suit your needs. A friend of mine bought a lovely Tedrow baritone anglo last spring, and I must say it has very nice workmanship. (I'm jealous of it!)

I'm sorry, I'm still not certain what your measurements mean. but it does sound like the smaller of the two sizes I suggested, so the Lachenal 20B might well be a bit bigger. Perhaps a picture of the face of the concertina with a ruler across the face of it would help. Come to think of it, maybe I should do the same, so you can see what my 20B Lachenal looks like. But Ithat will have to wait until the weekend. I don't know that I can get a weight measurement, but I'll see what I can do. If your current 30B is a Stagi, then my 20B Lachenal is likely smaller and lighter that that even if though it might be larger than the 10B. That was one of the reasons I bought this, even though the 30B Stagi in a similar price range would have given more flexibility in keys played, due to the accidental row. I don't find too much need for the farthest left buttons, except when playing chords, but I do tend to keep the melody line mostly in my left hand particularly in the G row, so I do use the left pinky for that D/F# button in most melodies, but at least that is the inner row. Meanwhile: Theo Gibb has a C/G 20B Lachenal for sale:look at this link: http://www.theboxplace.co.uk/purchase/lach20cg/prod_389.html Mine has the fancier rosewood ends instead, but that is just appearance. I've never dealt with him, but he has a good reputation, and often offers helpful comments here. (including early on in this thread!) Chris Alger has one listed on ebay if you are quick:http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251340038104?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649#ht_103wt_1170 Again, no personal experience, but a good reputation, and often offers helpful comments here on C.net If you are seriously interested, then maybe one of them could weigh and measure the instrument for you. Those German 20B concertinas on the link you sent look a bit larger and heavier than the Lachenal 20B to me, but hard to tell. Interesting to see the buttons aligned with the edge, rather than across the corner, on both these and the 10B you are working on now.

Dirge has a point about the 20B anglo Lachenal. I have one and I love the small size, light weight and the sweet tone. I don't have a scale to weigh mine, but I happened to measure the size the other day. Mine is 6-1/4 inches across the flats. LoiS-sez, you have already given us a measure of this 10B at 6-1/2 inches across the widest part. If that is across the flats, then the 20B Lachenal would indeed be slightly smaller, or at least mine would be. But if that 6-1/2 inches is corner to corner then that would mean this 10B is only about 5-5/8 inches across the flats. Can you clarify which is the case? Of course you already have a 30B instrument, which currently is too large/heavy/unwieldy. We don't know how big and heavy that is, or how it would compare with the proposed 20B Lachenal. (and good ones of these aren't as common in Michigan as they are here in England) For a bit more money, the Morse Ceili from the Buttonbox is also 6-1/4 inches across the flats, and would give you a full 30B instrument. I don't own one, but I've tried one out at a shop here, and found it very light and responsive. Again, it depends how it compares to the 30B you already own. Of course you already bought the 10B, so don't give up on it just yet, I certainly wouldn't. Gentle prying sounds like the way to go, along with perhaps gentle heat (hair dryer?) to soften whatever this clear/white goo is. Not too much heat though, and direct it carefully, or it might damage something else. Good luck!

If this is still for sale, could you post the button layout, or at least what the notes are for the 6 buttons beyond standard 20 button layout? A picture would be appreciated as well. Thanks.

I'm a relative beginner, but I think I can comment. I have a 20 button C/G anglo Lachenal , which was already updated to modern tuning. Mine was (is) in excellent condition, and I love playing it, and I love the sound. The light comfortable feel, lovely woodwork and sweet tone are what sold me on my Lachenal 20 button, despite the limitations in keys. But if you want to play Irish you will really need those C# reeds, to play in D major and you might be wanting an occasional G#(Ab) to play in A major. I know I miss them. and am constantly tempted to buy another instrument to cover that need. I probably will some day. OK, as for C/G vs. G/D - It would make sense that the G/D would be better for playing in D, but from what I read, the traditional style of Irish playing is with the C/G played across the rows to get D, so the phrasing will be distinctly different. But playing across the rows like that assumes you haves a 30 button or at least 24+ buttons Yes 24 button instruments are available from time to time. Most I've seen are old and in poor condition, or else well out of your stated price range, but you might find a gem. For C/G 30 button, the Stagi can be a good instrument. There is some significant variation in quality, but if you can check that you are getting a good one, then there you go! But do make sure, because from what I read, there are some that aren't that good, and at least need some adjustments. Some people don't like the sound of the Stagi that well, and I would agree it doesn't have the sweet tone of my antique Lachenal, but on the other hand I have heard Bertram Levi claim that the Stagi sound blends better with the sound of a fiddle, and I have a recording of his that makes me tend to agree. The Rochelle is a good choice for starting out, and often recommended. These are said to be generally good quality, and several shops that sell it will offer you a full purchase price credit if you later move up to a fancier instrument from the same shop. Sounds like a good deal. Personally I found it a bit heavy and clunky when I tried it in the shop, even as a complete novice. and the Stagi suffers a somwhat from the same faults. These are what still keep me from buying one now, as I really do appreciate my lovely little 20 button, and wouldn't want to move to a clunkier feel. As for buying an instrument that needs tuning, but is otherwise in good repair - do be sure to check your budget! if you are really limited to £200-£400 for the instrument, then a sginficant fraction of your budget could be used up just getting all the reeds in an old instrument updated to modern tuning, or if it is instead a matter of just a few reeds being badly out of tune, I guess I would question what condition the instrument is in that caused those reeds to get like that. But I don't really know what it would cost, so maybe it that is OK. Just worth checking out what tuning really costs before you buy such an instrument.

This reminds me of another bit of advice I use for learning song lyrics. There are so many songs most of us (me included) only know the first verse for and just hope we will get through the later verses as we get to them. I picked up the trick of learning the last line of the last verse first, then next time I practice starting with the line before that and singing to the end, and so on. This way when I eventually know the whole song and I start to perform it, I know that it will be more familiar as I go through toward the end, instead of less. Same thing works when learning tunes, although I haven't tried it as often. Edit: and even so my first experiences with playing in sessions have been very similar - even the few tunes I thought I knew were hard or impossible to stay in with.

I don't know your particular instrument, but Lachenal anglo concertinas, and any duet concertinas I have seen would have the hands positioned in the straps with the thumbs outside. I'm assuming you have small hands? If the straps are loose enough that you would even consider putting your whole hand including the thumbs inside the straps, then you might need to tighten the straps at least a little bit. Have fun learning to play your new instrument!

Agreed. The point of wanting a full voiced instrument is so that it can be heard while still playing within the comfort range of the instrument, NOT forcing the sound. That said, I've never found that a concertina can't be heard when playing in a normal size group. It is always louder to the everyone else in the room - or even the next room - than what the player thinks. I suppose it is theoretically possible that I simply haven't been aware that a concertina was playing because I couldn't hear it? Real quality to me is an instrument that has a good voice, with all the reeds speaking evenly in the quiet range. Much better for blending with other instruments, and essential to accompany singing. Sorry I don't have any experience on instruments with 38-45 buttons, as I still have only a 20 button! (so far) But I would agree that more options on bellows direction in the mid-low range would be more valuable than extending the range any higher. I rarely want to use the top end of the range as it is.

How was Folklife this year? I used to live in Olympia and always enjoyed going up to Folklife when it came around. My interests changed over the years, from dancing (contra, cajun, swing) toward singing (shanties) and listening (just everything) and playing (samba, of all things!) I didn't play concertina yet then, as I didn't aquire one until I lived here in England, so I wonder what there was at folklife for the 'tina? It isn't possible to really be aware of everything going on. There was always so much on that to hear anything meant missing something else you wanted to hear, and even looking at the schedule was enough to wear someone out! Good times. Ted

No question there are airs and other tunes not intended for dance, but I only claimed that the majority were, not all. As for session org it calling it a reel, that seems to be just a crude shorthand for saying the piece is in 4/4 time for those who don't read notation, and are just looking at the ABC.

It's certainly a strong musical sector throughout Europe and European-descended cultures, but... Just a few days ago I was showing around a couple of tourists from Japan, one of whom is born and bred Japanese and the other originally Swedish. Talk got around to music, and the erstwhile Swede said he was having difficulty explaining to his friend the concept of tunes for folk dance, because traditional Japanese culture has no equivalent. That is odd. I've participated in a Bon Odori celebration where traditional Japanese folk dances, centuries old, were taught and performed, all done to music. I wonder what part of the idea was different in the mind of your guest?

I think people are getting too hung up when objecting to the idea of music being inseparable from dancing. Of course there are styles of music that are not intended for dance. But those styles of music were not the focus of the workshop in the orignal post. On the other hand, this is not unique to Cajun music. It is absolutely true of the vast majority of folk music throughout the world, and certainly is true of most Irish, Scottish and English traditional music. Yes, the lilting melodies of the tunes seem more dominant here than the rhythms, but there is a reason that these tunes are referred to as jigs, reels, hornpipes etc. These are the names of dances! I've encountered similar advice on rhythm in a piano workshop in New England. to paraphrase: When playing dance music, it is more important to get the rhythm right than the notes, to the point of bringing hands to bear on the keys when required even if over the wrong chords. A few "blues" chords will be forgiven more easily than a downbeat that is unintentionally late. This matches my own experience from both sides of the stage. I've danced many nights away to Cajun music and many more to Celtic music and Appalachian music. I've also occasionally had the chance to participate as part of the band for a few dances, never yet on concertina though. But that experience of rhythm trumping melody - or harmony - goes beyond dance music. I like to sing sea shanties, and here again traditiionally the point of the music was the rhythm. Not dancing, but definitely intended to coordinate motions, and inspire effort. Here too performers sometimes ignore the origins, and the music can suffer as a result. But the idea that rhythm trumps the tune goes beyond even folk music. I played French horn in a concert orchestra way back when I was in school, and in high school I was in the marching band. I've also sung in a variety of amateur choirs over the years. Jazz, modern classical, you name it. Now I'm very far from professional, just a dabbler, but there is something that is common to all the groups I've played in. Poor tone and wrong notes are never welcome, but even an incorrect note is preferable to the correct note played at the wrong time. Nothing is more glaringly obvious than a note sounding early or late, particularlywhen there should have been a rest. Now, i wanted to object to some of the earlier points in the original post. I read music, and I prefer to learn that way. This is partly because it allows me to learn music that I've never heard. But I realise it is also partly because I'm not yet that skilled at learning a tune up to speed while listening. Perhaps because I've dabbled in many different types of instruments rather than become expert at one, I find it difficult to listen to a note and automatically translate it to the correct action on the instrument at hand. If I can see the written music, then I know what I need to play next and I can concentrate on making it sound good, rather than struggling to figure out if I'm in the right key. And I had one thriling evening playing for a ceili at our local folk club where the band of mostly amateurs was handed new sheet music before a few of the dances, and asked to sight read at tempo for the next dance! But I will agree that before I will try to lead a tune, or a song, I need to know it well enough to perform confidently without the written music, so I can concentrate on the others around me instead of on the page, whether that is the other musicians, or the dancers, or even just listeners. And I also will agree that is is a very valuable skill to be able to listen to others, and pick up on the nuances, whether to play along, or to learn for the future, and this is a skill that has to be developed, it doesn't just happen, any more than learning to read music did.

Hawiian Chieftain and Lady Washington ahoy! I miss them both! While I've not volunteered on either, I been on several day-sails on the Lady, including a full day sail from Port Townsend to Gig Harbor with a group of assorted shanty singers, and even led a couple songs. I didn't play concertina yet at the time though. Always looked for the ships if they were in a nearby port when I lived in the area. You might be interested to talk to Hank Cramer or David LoVine, each of whom served as shantyman aboard Lady Washington back in the 1990's or so. David LoVine plays an Anglo Concertina, and has an album out 'Pierhead Jump' filled mostly with shanties and sea songs he wrote during his time on board Lady Washington, several of which mention her in the lyrics, as well names of a few of those who sailed her at the time. He lives in southern California now, but you may see him at the Wooden Boat Festival in Port Townsend, or other such nautical festivals around Puget Sound from time to time. There are songs on that CD that you definitely will want to learn! Hank Cramer doesn't play concertina, but has a good full voice and sings a variety of songs. Nautical songs and shanties, but also story songs and work songs of the American west, as well as Irish tunes. He often plays at venues throughout western Washington, including both Puget Sound and Gray's Harbor areas. (and he can probably help you locate David LoVine's CD) -- back to concertinas - Just went to a shanty festival at the narrow boat museum in Elsemere Port (Cheshire England) over the Easter holidays, and easily half of the performers inlcuded a concertina or two in the act. probably 50% anglo, 40% English and a few Duets as well.

I play a C/G 20 button anglo, and I prefer to keep the melody mostly in the left hand when playing in G. The right hand's range is just too high and too harsh for continuous play on the G row, at least indoors. Neither my wife nor my cat will tolerate it for long! Occasionally I will double the melody line an octave above on the right hand, as a variation, just for one turn through the tune. More often I'll simply play a harmony line 1 or 2 buttons lower than the melody line, which ever fits the chord changes better. Sometimes I'll take a note off the other row instead, if the chord notes aren't available within the same row. So generally a 3rd or 4th or sometimes a 5th below the melody line, but more importantly, within the desired chord for that part of the phrase. But even if you don't know which notes ought to be in the chord, playing the melody and the next button down is pretty easy, and I expect you can generally hear whether 1 button down is good, or 2 buttons down works better, and you might be able to hear if you need a note off the other row instead.

I thought I could do this, and of course it helps for a bit, but it has been explained QUITE CLEARLY that even when I play "quietly" and am at the far end of the house, with two closed doors between, the sound of the concertina still manages to pierce through. Same issue with other instruments actually, but free reeds create overtones that seem to penetrate through the walls a bit more. Also, the concertina is always quieter for the player than for the people sitting to either side, which is a bit different from some other instruments.

What about bringing a concertina from the UK to the USA in my personal carry-on luggage? 1) Does this need to be declared at customs? 1a) Does anyone know the threshold value for US citizens bringing personal items into the USA before duty is required? 1a) I think it has bone buttons. Any reason that would cause a concern at customs? If so, what documentation should I obtain before I travel? 1b) I think it is an antique, which might influence the answers to 1a and 1b. What documentation should I obtain before I travel? 2) Any reason that airport security might be concerned about it as carry-on luggage? I would not want to be forced to check it because of a misunderstanding on the day of travel, or worse yet while changing planes mid-trip.

There should be 3 or 4 of them, all in different octaves, depending on the layout of your instrument. The lowest button on the left in the G row is a low B on the push, and the the next B in each case is one button higher than each G. Basically on the push, the G row is all a G major chord, a whole handfull of G B and D's, although if it is a Jeffries layout there could be one high F up in the screech range on the far right button.