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Harry Geuns C-system And Hayden Bandonions


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#19 inventor

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Posted 22 August 2006 - 06:25 AM

I didn't mention last week that the amount of time I must have saved when I started playing the left hand, with the chords in the same order as on the Stradella system accordion bass, more than made up for any extra time I might have spent getting complementary fingers to play together in octaves. I had already partly changed a button accordion to Hayden system on the right hand side, but retained the stradella on the left, whilst waiting (around 6 or 7 years) for my first Hayden system to arrive. I see that Rich Morse recently mentioned an interest in Hayden bass on Free Bass accordions.

However it did occur to me (things like this do occur to inventors) that a simple solution to the manufacture of both possibilities in one batch of instruments would be to add another 2 buttons to the bottom row (AAb) and (BBb) below the © and leave out the top db1 but add a c#2 at the other end of the top row. With an equal space at both ends of the reed blocks; then it would be possible to turn over the reed blocks and have both possibilities in the same instrument. If you colour the sharps and flats black (with the naturals white) this will still correspond. Those extra very low Flat notes would be incredably usefull when accompanying Flat keys.

There are another 2 or 3 alterations that might also be needed but I have thought of solutions to these too.

Any idea how much these instruments might cost ?

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#20 inventor

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Posted 30 August 2006 - 06:22 AM

P.S.

The I.C.A. have now published the article referred to I recieved my copy this morning.

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#21 JackWoehr

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 03:36 PM

Hey Harry! :D


Brian and I are still waiting for your estimate on the price you'll need to build these attractive Hayden machines!

#22 bandonion-maker

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 05:22 AM

Hi Jack , Brian,

Since this is a new product in still in developement we cannot give a fixed price already.
Our bi sonoric bandonions currently cost Euro 4400
A new model Hayden/Wicky lay out bandonion with traditional zinc reed plates would cost somewhere between 4400 and 4800 for a standard featured model.
We cannot start a production below 10 serious orders for the Wicky/Hayden model.

Regards

Harry Geuns
Bandonion & Concertina Maker

#23 JackWoehr

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Posted 12 September 2006 - 12:08 PM

Since this is a new product in still in developement we cannot give a fixed price already.
Our bi sonoric bandonions currently cost Euro 4400

xe.com Universal Currency Converter ® Results
Live mid-market rates as of 2006.09.12 17:04:28 UTC.
4,400.00 EUR
Euro = 5,581.22 USD
United States Dollars
1 EUR = 1.26846 USD 1 USD = 0.788357 EUR

A new model Hayden/Wicky lay out bandonion with traditional zinc reed plates would cost somewhere between 4400 and 4800 for a standard featured model.
We cannot start a production below 10 serious orders for the Wicky/Hayden model.

Oops, I thought this was something in the price range of your "C-System Bandoneon" which is going for <$1000.00 on eBay. $5500 is out of my range right now, my apologies. I'm sure it's a lovely instrument, and I look forward to encountering someone who buys one so I can try it out!

#24 bandonion-maker

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Posted 17 September 2006 - 03:08 AM

The price indication I gave is for a hand made traditional ( bandonion) sound instrument, comparable with our hand made Gabla Hybrid with traditional reed plates in zinc.(basic price USD 5,850.- )
The low priced c-system hybrid model with accordion type reeds in double voice octave tuning is made in China exclusive for us at our detailed specifications. (USD 835.- )
A set of traditional reed plates in zinc only costs over this much.

Having a Hayden/Wicky lay out bandonion produced in China as well means a monthly order of 30 pc's a month for us.

Anyone interested in a low prised Hayden/Wicky concertina China origine ? , let us know !

If there is a market big enough for a low priced Hayden/Wicky from China we'll have it produced.


Regards

Harry Geuns
Bandonion & Concertina Maker.

P.S. We'll offer our new concertina model with traditional type of reeds early 2007 !

#25 JackWoehr

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Posted 18 September 2006 - 01:41 PM

Anyone interested in a low prised Hayden/Wicky concertina China origine ? , let us know !

Yeah, that's more what I'm currently looking for.

P.S. We'll offer our new concertina model with traditional type of reeds early 2007 !

Awesome!!

#26 inventor

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 06:55 AM

If you mean a Hexagonal single reeded instrument; then yes I have a lot of interest. If an inexpensive instrument can be made using the standard Hayden spacing and angles ie 16mm between the centres of buttons along the rows 9mm between one row and the next above - to give an equal spacing of 12mm between the nearest buttons along the diagonal. The rows to slope down at an angle of 10.5 degrees towards the thumbs. Large flat top buttons are preferable (i.e. a minimum of 6mm diameter, 7mm standard accordion bass buttons would be very good). At that sort of price they would compete with the Italian inexpensive instruments, which have the buttons somewhat casually and widely spaced. They should also include Bbs and Ebs at the lower end of all the rows to make it easier to play in Bb, and some Abs to add the key of Eb to the easy to play keys.

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#27 ragtimer

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Posted 01 October 2006 - 06:03 PM

If you mean a Hexagonal single reeded instrument; then yes I have a lot of interest. If an inexpensive instrument can be made using the standard Hayden spacing and angles ie 16mm between the centres of buttons along the rows 9mm between one row and the next above - to give an equal spacing of 12mm between the nearest buttons along the diagonal.

Hear, hear! I'd love to see another reasonably-priced Hayden Duet with a few more notes than the Stagi that has been serving me well for 2 years.

Large flat top buttons are preferable (i.e. a minimum of 6mm diameter, 7mm standard accordion bass buttons would be very good). At that sort of price they would compete with the Italian inexpensive instruments, which have the buttons somewhat casually and widely spaced.

I agree -- large diameter flat topped buttons, and not sticking up too high above the end plate surface.
I've had the opportunity to briefly try out a fine Wheastone/Dickenson Hayden, and I didn't like the tall, narrow buttons. The closer spacing took some getting used to, but could be learned, it it makes some exotic chords easier, and some higher treble notes more accessible to the pinky.

"Casually spaced" is a bit strong for the Stagi. My buttons are consistently spaced.
The horizontal spacing is 17mm (close to the desired 16); it's the vertical row spacing that's excessive on the Stagi. I measure it as 11 or 12 mm.

They should also include Bbs and Ebs at the lower end of all the rows to make it easier to play in Bb, and some Abs to add the key of Eb to the easy to play keys.
Inventor.

Again, I agree on the need for more flat notes at the lower ends. And then we Hayden players can all argue over which extra notes we'd most like to see, but I think we can all agree on a few must-haves.
--Ragtimer

#28 SqueezeCat

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 06:28 PM

I've recently acquired an Elise from Concertina Connection and am finding the Hayden/Wicki layout to be very flexible and intuitive. Being a low-cost learner's instrument, the Elise doesn't exactly play like the higher end Anglos I have on hand. That said, I am enjoying the instrument--and am keen to gain experience with higher end instruments. (I have placed an order for a W-H1, hoping to see in about a year.)

In his article on the Hayden/Wicki layout, Robert Gaskins has suggested:

The “Wicki-Hayden” system may, in fact, be better suited to the bandoneon, and to other instruments rather larger than a concertina.


With these words in mind, you can imagine my curiosity piquing on finding this older thread started by Jack Woehr. I'm very interested there's been discussion on building a bandonion with a Hayden/Wicki layout...

Harry Geuns of Belgium has forwarded me news and images of C-System-layout Bandonions and a proposal for a Hayden/Wicky-layout Bandonion.


... which includes the following from Harry Geuns:

A new model Hayden/Wicky lay out bandonion with traditional zinc reed plates would cost somewhere between €4400 and €4800 for a standard featured model.
We cannot start a production below 10 serious orders for the Wicky/Hayden model.


As Geuns currently has both C-system and Kusserow system bandonions listed on his web page, I'd presume the threshold of ten prospective orders for the proposed Hayden/Wicki bandonion hasn't as yet been met.

Any interested parties as of now? (I'd guess that a Hayden/Wicki bandonion in production would greatly contribute to interest in the system.) I'd be keen to add my name to the list... but, would be curious to know if we're, at the moment, speaking of vaporware.

#29 Boney

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 07:23 PM

I'm definitely interested. I asked Harry about it a while back. He said he might be able to do it with as few as five orders, but he hasn't laid out a system for the action yet. One thing I want to do before ordering a bandoneon is to experiment with button spacings and angles. I'm not sure what the standard bandoneon button spacing is, and if Harry were thinking of using a similar spacing, or Brian Hayden's specification.

#30 SqueezeCat

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 05:26 PM

I'm definitely interested. I asked Harry about it a while back. He said he might be able to do it with as few as five orders, ...


That's cool. So, sounds like Harry would put together production if there were five of us.


... but he hasn't laid out a system for the action yet. One thing I want to do before ordering a bandoneon is to experiment with button spacings and angles. I'm not sure what the standard bandoneon button spacing is, and if Harry were thinking of using a similar spacing, or Brian Hayden's specification.


Ok. I see your point here.

My feeling is that I'd be most interested in a Wicki (e.g., parallel) angled layout. The little finger ('pinkie') has the least reach, so angling away from it makes playing more difficult.

As for spacing--I have a tango player friend in Seattle, so have played an AA bandoneon with 'traditional' spacing. (Well, to say 'played' is a bit of an exaggeration. More like 'played with'.) The spacing of the keys was certainly wider than what we'd expect on a concertina. My expectation is that spacing wouldn't matter so much as layout. Knowing where the right buttons are in a Hayden/Wicki layout seems to me to be the most important issue. After all, bandoneon players are able to make great music with a keyboard that is wider than we traverse playing the concertina.

I'd like an instrument with a parallel Wicki layout in the standard (as opposed to the mirrored) form as found in Hayden's patent. That is, ascending whole-tone scale from left to right.

Is it useful to begin soliciting interest--and approaching Harry? I'd be ready to put down a deposit for a parallel Wicki system instrument like Harry's proposed angled instrument, but with the left hand mirrored.

#31 SqueezeCat

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 02:34 PM

Harry Geuns of Belgium has forwarded me news and images of C-System-layout Bandonions and a proposal for a Hayden/Wicky-layout Bandonion.


Further to speculation as to what a Hayden/Wicky-layout bandonion could look like... is useful to review a few antique instruments Harry Geuns has in his collection displayed on this page. (Images below drawn from this link.)

Geuns's proposed Hayden/Wicky-layout Bandonion has 78 keys split evenly between the left and right hands (39 each side).

In comparison, Hugo Stark's "Chromatiphon" has a total of 110 keys evenly split across left and right (55 each side). Here's a pic showing both ends:

Posted Image


And another showing just the the right:

Posted Image

To match the layout Geuns has proposed, we'd need to cull 32 keys in total, 16 from both the left and the right. For the most part, this cull would take keys off the ends (usually between 2-3 keys), making a more central field of keys. Geuns has posted the Chromatiphon's layout here, so the interested (or obsessed! :)) can review the keyboard in detail. (It is also worth mentioning, of course, that the Chromatiphon layout isn't angled, as is the Hayden. At this time, however, I think I'm preferring a parallel row Wicki approach, for ease of little finger reach.)

Another likely candidate is the "Praktikal" Bandonion by Schönherr & Matthes (Schöma). The instrument Geuns shows on his page has a total of 116 keys split evenly across the instrument (58 each side). Here's a picture showing both sides of this bandonion:

Posted Image

To match Geuns's Hayden/Wicki proposal, we're looking at a cull of 19 keys from each side (total of 38!). Geuns shows the layout for this instrument here.

A few things worth reflecting on regarding the Praktikal:

  • The Praktikal's keyboard is a C-system layout. One might think that this would make it attractive to manufacture for a contemporary market place, where C-system accordions are one of the principal chromatic systems in use. (There may be some modern Praktikal makers, but I haven't found any.)
  • Interestingly enough, Geuns's own C-system instrument isn't the Praktikal, but the hybrid C-system layout instrument which started this thread. From this page, "the keys on his instrument are situated at the front of the instrument, similar to the chromatic button-accordion", appears to demonstrate C-system accordion players to be the target market for this hybrid instrument.
  • And... Hartenhauer is currently manufacturing a C-system instrument. This one has keys on the front, more like a bandonion than an accordion.
  • Praktikal instruments do turn up on eBay. Here's one in Germany.
  • I suspect that the Praktikal may be larger than the average bandonion. Larger to accommodate the extra keys as well as reeds. The one on Geuns's page has 3 reeds for the right side.


Ok. So, of those of us interested in a Hayden/Wicky-layout bandonion...?

Well, I think if we do see a modern made instrument, it'll end up looking something like (or could possibly be modelled on) the Chromatiphon above. There could be less keys as Geuns has suggested. Or, a bit more, like the layouts in Gaskin's article. I tend to think a smaller layout, while suffering from more 'edge effects' in some musical keys, may be more desirable to keep the instrument from becoming too unwieldily.

On the other hand...

One could imagine adapting an existing Praktikal instrument to a Hayden/Wicky-layout. Limitations have to do with compass. Geuns's proposed layout has 6 rows on each side, where (because it is a C-system instrument) Praktikal has only 5.

Similarly, if one comes across a Chromatiphon, this could be adapted to become a a Hayden/Wicky. From the standpoint of compass, I expect a Chromatiphon would be preferred to be adapted over a Praktikal, as the Chromatiphon has a keyboard of 6 rows on each side.


Perhaps we'll see a modern instrument soon?

#32 SqueezeCat

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 01:00 PM

Interestingly enough... from the Hayden Concertinas Pricelist circa 1985 posted by Chris Algar on the Hayden System Duet Concertina link at Concertina.com:


CURRENTLY IN STOCK

67 Button "Square" Concertina, Mahogany Ends, Two Voice (octaves) Instrument. Hand Made Rectified Reeds. Compass 4 octaves. Including Case £625



This sounds like the sort of modern manufactured bandonion-type instrument we've been speculating about. Anyone seen or played any of these Wheatstone (Dickinson made) instruments? Being "in stock" in 1985 one would assume there might be a few floating about.

#33 Daniel Hersh

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 09:09 PM

I think that the 67-key was made by Bastari, not Wheatstone: see this thread.

Interestingly enough... from the Hayden Concertinas Pricelist circa 1985 posted by Chris Algar on the Hayden System Duet Concertina link at Concertina.com:

CURRENTLY IN STOCK

67 Button "Square" Concertina, Mahogany Ends, Two Voice (octaves) Instrument. Hand Made Rectified Reeds. Compass 4 octaves. Including Case £625


This sounds like the sort of modern manufactured bandonion-type instrument we've been speculating about. Anyone seen or played any of these Wheatstone (Dickinson made) instruments? Being "in stock" in 1985 one would assume there might be a few floating about.



#34 SqueezeCat

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 01:04 PM

I think that the 67-key was made by Bastari, not Wheatstone: see this thread.


Ah... that makes sense! I was making the mistake the advertisement was speaking of a Wheatstone (Dickinson) made instrument.

#35 SqueezeCat

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 05:28 PM

Further updates on Geuns proposed Hayden/Wicky-layout Bandonion...

Harry Geuns of Belgium has forwarded me news and images of C-System-layout Bandonions and a proposal for a Hayden/Wicky-layout Bandonion.


Exciting news as to progress on a new Hayden/Wicky instrument. :)

I've recently been in touch with Harry as to developments. In reading his comments you'll see he intends to start by making an approachable instrument with high quality reeds and action, to appear sometime this year:

We will try to make a prototype this year. In order to reduce the costs , we'll use the boxes and bellows we already order in China for our starters models.

Features:

Plywood box in black (celluloid finish)
Bellows accordion type black linnen finish.
High quality reed plates in zinc ( two voice octave tuned MH )
Our hand made reed blocks and action
Assembly and finish in Belgium.
softbag

Indicative price Euro 3000

below picture shows our newest student model 142 tone bi sonoric bandonion.
This case and bellows will be fitting a Wicky Hayden lay out as well

Posted Image

below: our traditional type bandonion action in wood

Posted Image

In order to start a limited production it would be nessacary to have at least five instruments ordered.

People interested contact us : info@bandoneon-maker.com or harrygeuns@skynet.be

Required order downpayment Euro 1000


We'll be able to make luxury models (for example with bird's eye maple finish ) as well.

I am still working on a definite action design.

I also made a new lay out design with modified left hand lay out.
See attached files.

Let's await comments


Regards

Harry Geuns
Bandonion & Concertina Maker
Free Reed Maker


Here's the revised keyboard layout (left and then right):

Posted Image
Posted Image


You'll see that Harry has extended the compass of the right hand from the layout originally posted in this thread. The proposed keyboard now has a range comparable to that of the 142 note bi-sonoric keyboard. That's what the extra row at the top of the right hand keyboard does.

For the keyboard, I'll be in touch with Harry to let him know I prefer a parallel to the handrest Wicki keyboard layout.

Any other thoughts on the compass and layout?

#36 Daniel Hersh

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 06:17 PM

My initial questions/comments:

Will it have a register switch, or will both sets of reeds sound all the time? It would be nice to have have the option of a single-reed sound.

Any idea of the weight?

That's certainly an impressive range!

I think that I'd vote for a parallel layout too, though I've only had the opportunity to play a slant-layout Hayden so far.

Daniel

Further updates on Geuns proposed Hayden/Wicky-layout Bandonion...

Harry Geuns of Belgium has forwarded me news and images of C-System-layout Bandonions and a proposal for a Hayden/Wicky-layout Bandonion.


Exciting news as to progress on a new Hayden/Wicky instrument. :)

I've recently been in touch with Harry as to developments. In reading his comments you'll see he intends to start by making an approachable instrument with high quality reeds and action, to appear sometime this year:

We will try to make a prototype this year. In order to reduce the costs , we'll use the boxes and bellows we already order in China for our starters models.

Features:

Plywood box in black (celluloid finish)
Bellows accordion type black linnen finish.
High quality reed plates in zinc ( two voice octave tuned MH )
Our hand made reed blocks and action
Assembly and finish in Belgium.
softbag

Indicative price Euro 3000

below picture shows our newest student model 142 tone bi sonoric bandonion.
This case and bellows will be fitting a Wicky Hayden lay out as well


below: our traditional type bandonion action in wood


In order to start a limited production it would be nessacary to have at least five instruments ordered.

People interested contact us : info@bandoneon-maker.com or harrygeuns@skynet.be

Required order downpayment Euro 1000


We'll be able to make luxury models (for example with bird's eye maple finish ) as well.

I am still working on a definite action design.

I also made a new lay out design with modified left hand lay out.
See attached files.

Let's await comments


Regards

Harry Geuns
Bandonion & Concertina Maker
Free Reed Maker


Here's the revised keyboard layout (left and then right):

You'll see that Harry has extended the compass of the right hand from the layout originally posted in this thread. The proposed keyboard now has a range comparable to that of the 142 note bi-sonoric keyboard. That's what the extra row at the top of the right hand keyboard does.

For the keyboard, I'll be in touch with Harry to let him know I prefer a parallel to the handrest Wicki keyboard layout.

Any other thoughts on the compass and layout?


Edited by Daniel Hersh, 01 February 2010 - 06:20 PM.





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