Irish airs on Anglo

[TomB-R]

Somewhere in Ciaran Carson's superb "Last Night's Fun - A book about Irish traditional music" he quotes (as I recall) "there's many can play the jigs and reels, but it's the slow air that will sort them out...."

 

I just got Micheal O'Raghallaigh's "Nervous Man" cd, and it's a real delight with some wonderful (yet understated) playing, particularly the jigs at track 4.

 

BUT, I can't deny, the two slow air tracks leave me wondering.

 

And then I listen to the airs on Noel Hill's "Irish concertina," and have yet to make up my mind about the bellows vibrato.....

 

I'm coming to this as one who is primarily a fiddle player, and I know we're all here because we're concertina enthusiasts.

 

So, can anyone recommend to me recordings of airs on Anglo that truly convince when set against the very best players of flute, uilleann pipes and fiddle? I'm talking of recordings that can stand next to Molloy, O'Flynn and the like.

 

( My apologies for the implications of what I've just said towards the truly wonderful musicians concerned!)

Tom

 

Pace, English and Duet players! I'm asking about anglo!

[Snorre]

So, can anyone recommend to me recordings of airs on Anglo that truly convince when set against the very best players of flute, uilleann pipes and fiddle? I'm talking of recordings that can stand next to Molloy, O'Flynn and the like.

 

I'll lay my head on the block with Sliabh Gullion Braes played by Tony O'Connell on his and Andy Morrow's album. It is so far the best slow air I have heard on a concertina album.

[tombilly]

( My apologies for the implications of what I've just said towards the truly wonderful musicians concerned!)

 

I heard Noel Hill himself say as much at Willie Week concertina bash in 2008. We had heard a steady diet of jigs, reels & hornpipes, all grand tunes but Noel must have sensed the gap and he coming on last chose to play, I think it was Limericks Lamentation. However he introduced it by observing that the (Anglo) concertina wasn't the easiest instrument on which to render airs. Odd, because there's some fine air playing on the button accordion which you'd think would have same deficiencies: difficulty in bending a note, hard to slide up into a note etc. And anglo offers more double noting and chord possibilities than box I would think. I like playing a few airs myself but mostly prefer to play on flute.

Edited July 28, 2009 by tombilly

[Mike C]

I agree that it's a hard instrument for airs, but when it is done well it really works. My two favourites are Caoineadh Eoghan Rua by Niamh Ní Charra (she plays fiddle as well!) on her CD Ón Dá Thaobh / from Both Sides, and Niall Vallely's version of An Buachaillín Bán on the Callan Bridge album.

[david fabre]

I agree that it's a hard instrument for airs, but when it is done well it really works. My two favourites are Caoineadh Eoghan Rua by Niamh Ní Charra (she plays fiddle as well!) on her CD Ón Dá Thaobh / from Both Sides, and Niall Vallely's version of An Buachaillín Bán on the Callan Bridge album.

 

I also love that tune on the Callan Bridge album, but I beleive that Niall

actually "cheated" by recording twice to add the chords afterwards. What do you think ?

 

I also tried to figure out the key. It seems to be in Bb minor, so I suspect he's using an instrument in Ab/Eb.

[TomB-R]

Thanks folks, I'll follow those suggestions up, and thanks Mike for the reminder about Niamh Ní Charra's playing. That's a great cd that had slipped my mind.

[chiton1]

quote name='TomB-R' date='Jul 27 2009, 12:01 PM' post='98458']

Somewhere in Ciaran Carson's superb "Last Night's Fun - A book about Irish traditional music" he quotes (as I recall) "there's many can play the jigs and reels, but it's the slow air that will sort them out...."

 

I just got Micheal O'Raghallaigh's "Nervous Man" cd, and it's a real delight with some wonderful (yet understated) playing, particularly the jigs at track 4.

 

BUT, I can't deny, the two slow air tracks leave me wondering.

 

Strange indeed. He is my favourite when playing dance tunes (I love his feel of rhythm and his rich playing), but he seems to be lost when there is no dance beat. He plays the notes but there is no feeling for what he is playing. Niall Vallely plays his dance music often too much staccato (looks like he is the real ''Nervous Man'') to my taste but his slower pieces are wonderful.

In the last CD of Noel Hill there is too much vibrato/tremolo, more than in earlier recordings which were better I think. The use of vibrato or tremolo effects should be well thought of (when and how and how much). That said - pipers and flute players often overdo it (it is so easy to wave those fingers...).

As both a concertina (EC) and flute player (who loves to play slow airs), I know that it is much easier to play a slow air on the flute than on the concertina. But I heard enough concertina players doing some lovely slow airs. The fact that quite a few people can't play slow airs is a common thing among players of most instruments (perhaps the harp is an exception ).

Edited July 28, 2009 by chiton1

[Tom Ryan]

To my taste, a good example of Irish slow air playing on Anglo is "Cearchall Ban Mo Chroi" (I'm on a French keyboard and can't get the accents for the Irish) played by Gearoid O'hAllmhurain on the album Tracin' which he and Patrick Ourceau made. There is some bellows shake, but it's restrained and the air is beautiful.

 

Tom Ryan

[michael sam wild]

To my taste, a good example of Irish slow air playing on Anglo is "Cearchall Ban Mo Chroi" (I'm on a French keyboard and can't get the accents for the Irish) played by Gearoid O'hAllmhurain on the album Tracin' which he and Patrick Ourceau made. There is some bellows shake, but it's restrained and the air is beautiful.

 

Tom Ryan

 

 

I agree he plays airs nicely ( as does |tony Mcmahon on the box)

 

 

I like John Williams' playing of airs too

[david_boveri]

In the last CD of Noel Hill there is too much vibrato/tremolo, more than in earlier recordings which were better I think. The use of vibrato or tremolo effects should be well thought of (when and how and how much). That said - pipers and flute players often overdo it (it is so easy to wave those fingers...).

 

i disagree. vibrato is a very strong part of the piping tradition, and is a well established part of the sound. listen and watch the greats play...

seamus ennis was well noted for that he did his vibrato both with individual fingers and his entire arm. finger vibrato on the flute is also a very integral part of the traditional sound. i cannot be so sure of it's provenance, because tuition of the flute in irish culture was not so codified for so long as with the pipes.

 

i think that vibrato on the concertina adds a great dimension and subtlety, and it is not so easily accomplished. i think that noel's playing of airs is his strong point... hearing him play them live, they always leave me on the edge of my seat. when he plays planxty fanny power and then tabhair dom do lamh, it is always the highlight of my year. those high b's in tabhair dom do lamh get me every time.... so light, delicate, and compassionate. it almost hurts when he stops playing, because i want him to go on forever... the quiver of the vibrato is the icing on the cake.

 

from your description it sounds like noel's playing on his newer cd is dripping with vibrato, as in some cheesy, neo-classical pop concert. i am listening to the recording right now, and i think the use of vibrato is well thought out, planned and tasteful. he does not do vibrato on every note, nor even vibrato for the entire duration of notes which he does use this technique. if you listen, it is usually just a quiver at the beginning or end of the note, and rarely both.

 

i had a similar contention with an air on james kelly's cd "melodic journeys," but then i realized that i was over-intellectualizing my music listening. so, rather than be disappointed that james used vibrato because it went against my principles, i listened to the music and ignored any sense of propriety, and found that it was my own biases that were affecting what i heard, and not the quality of the music. someone like james kelly or noel hill does not add any element to their music without a great amount of consideration, due to their great respect for the tradition.

 

this is pure speculation, but i would guess that the reason it is not so pronounced on his earlier recordings is that he could not do it as well when he was younger. a subtle vibrato on the concertina requires a lot of control of the bellows, using your upper arms rather than your wrists--i love noel's old recordings as well as his new ones, as they both offer great music with different perspectives, but it is clear that his CONTROL over the tone of the instrument has increased a lot over the years, and it was already very substantial to begin with.

 

vibrato it can be very elusive... if the sound isn't in your head it just wont come out. i struggle with it a lot! you may not notice it, but a lot of noel's shaping of notes in dance music has to do with the subtle colorings of momentary, subtle vibrato. i consider vibrato as well as staccato to be the two most integral parts of noel's technique which create his unique sound. it is not even so much explicitly evident vibrato or staccato that is important, but the control that these techniques afford one over the sound of the instrument.

[chiton1]

In the last CD of Noel Hill there is too much vibrato/tremolo, more than in earlier recordings which were better I think. The use of vibrato or tremolo effects should be well thought of (when and how and how much). That said - pipers and flute players often overdo it (it is so easy to wave those fingers...).

 

i disagree. vibrato is a very strong part of the piping tradition, and is a well established part of the sound. listen and watch the greats play...

seamus ennis was well noted for that he did his vibrato both with individual fingers and his entire arm. finger vibrato on the flute is also a very integral part of the traditional sound. i cannot be so sure of it's provenance, because tuition of the flute in irish culture was not so codified for so long as with the pipes.

 

I am not saying that vibrato (in concertina music the vibrato effect is done by the use of tremolo, but lets keep it simple and use the term vibrato) is wrong, I am only saying that several musicians are overdoing it or are not using it with the subtlety it sometimes needs. And that is of course only to my own taste (I am sorry but that is my point of reference, but nobody needs to agree with me).

 

i think that vibrato on the concertina adds a great dimension and subtlety, and it is not so easily accomplished. i think that noel's playing of airs is his strong point... hearing him play them live, they always leave me on the edge of my seat. when he plays planxty fanny power and then tabhair dom do lamh, it is always the highlight of my year. those high b's in tabhair dom do lamh get me every time.... so light, delicate, and compassionate. it almost hurts when he stops playing, because i want him to go on forever... the quiver of the vibrato is the icing on the cake.

 

You see how opinions can differ. First of all let me state that I think that Noel Hill is an outstanding concertina player. The classic recording by him and Tony Linnane is for a large part responsible for the fact that I wanted to play concertina myself (picked the ''wrong'' system, but that's another story). I just listened to his last recording again, and although technically his vibrato is very well done, I still think he is overdoing it. In track two ''The Humours of Ballyloughlin'' I would skip half the vibrato he uses, and the same goes (although in slow airs a larger amount of vibrato is more appropriate) for the two slow airs ''The Mountains of Pomeroy'' and the old classic ''Boulavogue''. It can be a matter of taste but would have preferred a more scant use of vibrato.

 

from your description it sounds like noel's playing on his newer cd is dripping with vibrato, as in some cheesy, neo-classical pop concert. i am listening to the recording right now, and i think the use of vibrato is well thought out, planned and tasteful. he does not do vibrato on every note, nor even vibrato for the entire duration of notes which he does use this technique. if you listen, it is usually just a quiver at the beginning or end of the note, and rarely both.

 

Of course I think he planned his vibrato, but as said before to me it is a little too much (for you and Noel apparently it is OK).

 

i had a similar contention with an air on james kelly's cd "melodic journeys," but then i realized that i was over-intellectualizing my music listening. so, rather than be disappointed that james used vibrato because it went against my principles, i listened to the music and ignored any sense of propriety, and found that it was my own biases that were affecting what i heard, and not the quality of the music. someone like james kelly or noel hill does not add any element to their music without a great amount of consideration, due to their great respect for the tradition.

 

Even if done with a large amount of consideration and even if they respect tradition, you do not have to like everything people offer you, no matter if they are called Ennis, Molloy, Hill.

 

this is pure speculation, but i would guess that the reason it is not so pronounced on his earlier recordings is that he could not do it as well when he was younger. a subtle vibrato on the concertina requires a lot of control of the bellows, using your upper arms rather than your wrists--i love noel's old recordings as well as his new ones, as they both offer great music with different perspectives, but it is clear that his CONTROL over the tone of the instrument has increased a lot over the years, and it was already very substantial to begin with.

vibrato it can be very elusive... if the sound isn't in your head it just wont come out. i struggle with it a lot! you may not notice it, but a lot of noel's shaping of notes in dance music has to do with the subtle colorings of momentary, subtle vibrato. i consider vibrato as well as staccato to be the two most integral parts of noel's technique which create his unique sound. it is not even so much explicitly evident vibrato or staccato that is important, but the control that these techniques afford one over the sound of the instrument.

 

I don't think its useful to argue much further about it, as I agree with most things you say, but we have different taste in what amount of vibrato effect you can or may put in a tune.

I have been working a lot with vibrato effects myself the last two years, and found five different ways to produce that effect. At least three of them are quite useful in traditional music. To do the vibrato effects bellows control is not the most important factor, but it will be when incorporating the vibrato into the music (which in my opinion is the the most difficult part). I will put a thread soon in the ''Teaching and learning Forum'' showing the different ways I use or know of, and add a Youtube clip to show. I think it could be useful to some of us here.

[david_boveri]

In the last CD of Noel Hill there is too much vibrato/tremolo, more than in earlier recordings which were better I think. The use of vibrato or tremolo effects should be well thought of (when and how and how much). That said - pipers and flute players often overdo it (it is so easy to wave those fingers...).

 

i disagree. vibrato is a very strong part of the piping tradition, and is a well established part of the sound. listen and watch the greats play...

seamus ennis was well noted for that he did his vibrato both with individual fingers and his entire arm. finger vibrato on the flute is also a very integral part of the traditional sound. i cannot be so sure of it's provenance, because tuition of the flute in irish culture was not so codified for so long as with the pipes.

 

I am not saying that vibrato (in concertina music the vibrato effect is done by the use of tremolo, but lets keep it simple and use the term vibrato) is wrong, I am only saying that several musicians are overdoing it or are not using it with the subtlety it sometimes needs. And that is of course only to my own taste (I am sorry but that is my point of reference, but nobody needs to agree with me).

 

i think that vibrato on the concertina adds a great dimension and subtlety, and it is not so easily accomplished. i think that noel's playing of airs is his strong point... hearing him play them live, they always leave me on the edge of my seat. when he plays planxty fanny power and then tabhair dom do lamh, it is always the highlight of my year. those high b's in tabhair dom do lamh get me every time.... so light, delicate, and compassionate. it almost hurts when he stops playing, because i want him to go on forever... the quiver of the vibrato is the icing on the cake.

 

You see how opinions can differ. First of all let me state that I think that Noel Hill is an outstanding concertina player. The classic recording by him and Tony Linnane is for a large part responsible for the fact that I wanted to play concertina myself (picked the ''wrong'' system, but that's another story). I just listened to his last recording again, and although technically his vibrato is very well done, I still think he is overdoing it. In track two ''The Humours of Ballyloughlin'' I would skip half the vibrato he uses, and the same goes (although in slow airs a larger amount of vibrato is more appropriate) for the two slow airs ''The Mountains of Pomeroy'' and the old classic ''Boulavogue''. It can be a matter of taste but would have preferred a more scant use of vibrato.

 

from your description it sounds like noel's playing on his newer cd is dripping with vibrato, as in some cheesy, neo-classical pop concert. i am listening to the recording right now, and i think the use of vibrato is well thought out, planned and tasteful. he does not do vibrato on every note, nor even vibrato for the entire duration of notes which he does use this technique. if you listen, it is usually just a quiver at the beginning or end of the note, and rarely both.

 

Of course I think he planned his vibrato, but as said before to me it is a little too much (for you and Noel apparently it is OK).

 

i had a similar contention with an air on james kelly's cd "melodic journeys," but then i realized that i was over-intellectualizing my music listening. so, rather than be disappointed that james used vibrato because it went against my principles, i listened to the music and ignored any sense of propriety, and found that it was my own biases that were affecting what i heard, and not the quality of the music. someone like james kelly or noel hill does not add any element to their music without a great amount of consideration, due to their great respect for the tradition.

 

Even if done with a large amount of consideration and even if they respect tradition, you do not have to like everything people offer you, no matter if they are called Ennis, Molloy, Hill.

 

this is pure speculation, but i would guess that the reason it is not so pronounced on his earlier recordings is that he could not do it as well when he was younger. a subtle vibrato on the concertina requires a lot of control of the bellows, using your upper arms rather than your wrists--i love noel's old recordings as well as his new ones, as they both offer great music with different perspectives, but it is clear that his CONTROL over the tone of the instrument has increased a lot over the years, and it was already very substantial to begin with.

vibrato it can be very elusive... if the sound isn't in your head it just wont come out. i struggle with it a lot! you may not notice it, but a lot of noel's shaping of notes in dance music has to do with the subtle colorings of momentary, subtle vibrato. i consider vibrato as well as staccato to be the two most integral parts of noel's technique which create his unique sound. it is not even so much explicitly evident vibrato or staccato that is important, but the control that these techniques afford one over the sound of the instrument.

 

I don't think its useful to argue much further about it, as I agree with most things you say, but we have different taste in what amount of vibrato effect you can or may put in a tune.

I have been working a lot with vibrato effects myself the last two years, and found five different ways to produce that effect. At least three of them are quite useful in traditional music. To do the vibrato effects bellows control is not the most important factor, but it will be when incorporating the vibrato into the music (which in my opinion is the the most difficult part). I will put a thread soon in the ''Teaching and learning Forum'' showing the different ways I use or know of, and add a Youtube clip to show. I think it could be useful to some of us here.

 

what does that mean that bellows control is not an important factor? if you're not controlling the bellows, what are you controlling?

[JimLucas]

To do the vibrato effects bellows control is not the most important factor, but it will be when incorporating the vibrato into the music (which in my opinion is the the most difficult part). I will put a thread soon in the ''Teaching and learning Forum'' showing the different ways I use or know of, and add a Youtube clip to show. I think it could be useful to some of us here.

what does that mean that bellows control is not an important factor? if you're not controlling the bellows, what are you controlling?

Patience, David.

He said he's gonna tell us when he puts up his new thread.

[Guest Peter Laban]

noel's playing on his newer cd is dripping with vibrato, as in some cheesy, neo-classical pop concert

 

In fairness, if you have ever seen him play a gig, the cathedral size reverb he turns on for the airs and Brian McGrath's woolly keyboard hovering in the backgound does drive it quite a long way in that direction.

 

i think the use of vibrato is well thought out, planned and tasteful

 

Control and deliberateness don't preclude going OTT. About taste we can argue.

 

He's a man that can wear many hats, depending on the circumstances. I prefer it when he tones things down a bit and stays with the music rather than the performance aspect to be honest. Restraint (another thing Seamus Ennis was famed for) is a virtue in my book, less is more.

Edited August 2, 2009 by Peter Laban

[CaryK]

While not as experienced or educated a listener of Irish music as many on this forum, airs are perhaps my favorite type of ITM. I love reels, jigs, hornpipes, slides, and polkas but a well-played air cuts right to my emotional heart. The best recording of an air, which I've heard to date is Noel Hill's version of "Lament for Limerick" on Anglo International CD#3. I get choked up when listening to it and the historical event of the siege and capitulation of Limerick are not even part of my inherited cultural makeup. Not much music chokes me up, but that is one beautiful composition, played with such power and feeling that it really pulls me in emotionally. That, I guess, is what all music should do. It may not be to every one's taste, but it sure grabs me.

 

That being said, I would love it if someone could direct me to a recording with concertina playing Carolan's "Farewell to Music." I've attempted it and have the notes down, but it lacks totally in feeling as I play it. Its another beautiful composition I would like to hear down well on the Anglo.

Edited August 3, 2009 by CaryK

[david_boveri]

noel's playing on his newer cd is dripping with vibrato, as in some cheesy, neo-classical pop concert

 

In fairness, if you have ever seen him play a gig, the cathedral size reverb he turns on for the airs and Brian McGrath's woolly keyboard hovering in the backgound does drive it quite a long way in that direction.

 

i think the use of vibrato is well thought out, planned and tasteful

 

Control and deliberateness don't preclude going OTT. About taste we can argue.

 

He's a man that can wear many hats, depending on the circumstances. I prefer it when he tones things down a bit and stays with the music rather than the performance aspect to be honest. Restraint (another thing Seamus Ennis was famed for) is a virtue in my book, less is more.

 

i am not sure i agree. what does restraint look like? i think noel practices restraint, just as much as seamus ennis did. i think you are confusing reverb with vibrato.... reverb is electronic, vibrato is not. if you listen to the clip of seamus ennis above, he uses a lot more vibrato then noel does. if you factor in reverb on top of vibrato, it does not change the nature of vibrato! that is like saying that amplifying music changes the pitch of the note. what is going on behind the microphone is important.... if you want to say you do not like the sound board effects he uses at his concerts, that is a different subject.

[david_boveri]

While not as experienced or educated a listener of Irish music as many on this forum, airs are perhaps my favorite type of ITM. I love reels, jigs, hornpipes, slides, and polkas but a well-played air cuts right to my emotional heart. The best recording of an air, which I've heard to date is Noel Hill's version of "Lament for Limerick" on Anglo International CD#3. I get choked up when listening to it and the historical event of the siege and capitulation of Limerick are not even part of my inherited cultural makeup. Not much music chokes me up, but that is one beautiful composition, played with such power and feeling that it really pulls me in emotionally. That, I guess, is what all music should do. It may not be to every one's taste, but it sure grabs me.

 

i think that is a very good place to be. i still struggle with this. often times i get caught up in the idea of how music "should be" and rather than what effect it has on me. it was very hard for me to get over the idea that music cant be rhythmic talking, but once i got over that, i can now enjoy hip-hop and derivative music, when before i was too snooty to do so.

 

i am confused to hear that noel plays airs tastelessly, because i agree with you that his airs can be so moving. the most moving musical performances i have ever witnessed live to in my life were ode to joy, the playing of ravi shankar, and noel's playing of slow airs. if you were to think about it intellectually, ode to joy is a bad symphony, because symphonies DO NOT have choirs. ravi shankar is a bad sitar player, because he tried to bridge the gap between western music and hindustani. the likewise would go for noel--it's like saying he is a bad concertina player because he uses vibrato (or even uses reverb), while ignoring what effect this vibrato has on the music and the feeling of the tune. sitting in a room full of people all on the edge of their seats, as a note quivers to silence is all the proof for me that something is tasteful enough for me to happily say that i enjoyed it.

[Alan Day]

While not as experienced or educated a listener of Irish music as many on this forum, airs are perhaps my favorite type of ITM. I love reels, jigs, hornpipes, slides, and polkas but a well-played air cuts right to my emotional heart. The best recording of an air, which I've heard to date is Noel Hill's version of "Lament for Limerick" on Anglo International CD#3. I get choked up when listening to it and the historical event of the siege and capitulation of Limerick are not even part of my inherited cultural makeup. Not much music chokes me up, but that is one beautiful composition, played with such power and feeling that it really pulls me in emotionally. That, I guess, is what all music should do. It may not be to every one's taste, but it sure grabs me.

 

 

Thank you for the comments regarding this slow air we specifically requested that Noel recorded a slow air for us as he puts so much feeling into this type of music>This is a style of playing that sets Noel apart from even the good ITM players of jigs and reels.

I normally prefer the use of vibrato or bellows shake on a long sustained note rather than the constant use of it .

Al