Who are the concertina pros?

[JimLucas]

It depends on the question, of course, and you made the original post of an enjoyable discussion. However, to my mind the most interesting aspect of the question is, can someone make a living from playing solely concertina? If not 100%, who comes near?

Does either Noel Hill or Niall Vallely play another instrument or have another job?

 

Alistair Anderson used to make his living playing only concertina. Then he also learned to play Northumbrian pipes and helped found the Folkworks school, but I believe he could still make a living simply from playing the concertina, and he is still known primarily as a concertina player.

 

Another concertina.net member who might belong on the list is John Nixon. I'm not sure if today he lives only from his music (when younger he was also an engineer, and he's now old enough to be pensioned), nor am I sure that he only plays concertina when he works as a musician (he has mentioned that he can also play alto sax, clarinet, and string bass). But he has certainly made recordings and earned money playing the concertina. We should ask him where he fits in these various categories.

[fiddlersgreen]

I'm at lunch so I can't read all of the replies carefully so these folks may have already been mentioned and they are Edel Fox (anglo ITM), Rachel Hall of Simple Gifts (EC, world music) and Sarah Graves (EC, various genres). They may not be full time but they do earn some money from their playing.

[hjcjones]

According to her website Edel Fox currently studies music at the University of Limerick.

 

According to another website, Rachel Hall is teaching math at St. Joseph's University.

 

I used to know Sarah Graves but haven't seen her for years. I don't think she's full-time.

[david_boveri]

It depends on the question, of course, and you made the original post of an enjoyable discussion. However, to my mind the most interesting aspect of the question is, can someone make a living from playing solely concertina? If not 100%, who comes near?

Does either Noel Hill or Niall Vallely play another instrument or have another job?

 

noel hill does not have another job. all he does is teach concertina and perform. he only performs on anglo concertinas and his anglo miniature.

[David S]

On another thread, m3838 made the comment that "90% of pros play Irish style". Leaving aside (for now at least) the accuracy of that percentage, it got me wondering how many concertina players are full-time professionals, meaning that they rely on their music to make a living?

 

In folk music the rewards for being a musician are not great, and many good musicians are capable of earning far more by having a "real job". To be a folk musician, you've really got to want to do it, and many (including some highly-regarded players) choose to earn their living by other means and play music as a sideline. This is particularly the case with bands, since the fees don't rise pro rata with the number of band members. On the English ceilidh scene (which I know best) virtually all the top bands, even those with national reputations, are semi-pro. Some of the best and most highly-respected players, therefore, are not always full-time professional musicians.

 

So far, the ones I've come up with who are full-time pros are (in no particular order):

 

John Kirkpatrick

Brian Peters

Alistair Anderson

Simon Thoumire

Dick Miles

Jody Kruskal

Noel Hill

Michael O Raghallaigh

Liam Robinson

Roger Watson

John Spiers

 

Who have I missed?

 

 

Chris Sherburn?

[felix castro]

Another name for the pot: Jon Boden of Spiers and Boden plays duet. Not as often as John Spiers plays the anglo on stage, but he is a full time musician who plays concertina during a paid public performance.

 

Yes, he was one I had meant to add to my earlier list, but forgot. I also meant to add Steve Turner, who has since been added and Bernard Wrigley (see English International), EC player and actor, who has so far, not been mentioned. Then there are three more anglo players that come to mind; Roger Edwards of Trio Threlfall, Mick Bramwich and Felix Castro, but I don't know if any of them earn a full time living from their playing. I notice that there are no Australian players on the list, or South African players, for that matter. Surely there must be at least one from each country, who makes a living playing. Finally, I realised that I misspelled Damien Barber's first name in my original list. It should have an 'e' after the 'i', not an 'a'.

 

Chris

 

Hello, I am not a pro. I am from Galicia - Spain. I work as a lawyer with my brother and my parents in our own lawyers office (in spanish language bufete de abogados), but I spend a lot of time playing and investigating about galician traditional music, and other etnographic things, I am now cursing antropological studies for a degree (?).

I play also diatonic accordion and galician bagpipes, and my brother wooden flute and bouzouki.

In Galicia is very difficult to be a proffesional musician, but we didn't intended to do it.

I do too many things, martial arts, music, etc. but I like all af them and I can leave anything ... ;-)

Regards

Félix Castro

[ceemonster]

Another name for the pot: Jon Boden of Spiers and Boden plays duet. Not as often as John Spiers plays the anglo on stage, but he is a full time musician who plays concertina during a paid public performance.

 

Yes, he was one I had meant to add to my earlier list, but forgot. I also meant to add Steve Turner, who has since been added and Bernard Wrigley (see English International), EC player and actor, who has so far, not been mentioned. Then there are three more anglo players that come to mind; Roger Edwards of Trio Threlfall, Mick Bramwich and Felix Castro, but I don't know if any of them earn a full time living from their playing. I notice that there are no Australian players on the list, or South African players, for that matter. Surely there must be at least one from each country, who makes a living playing. Finally, I realised that I misspelled Damien Barber's first name in my original list. It should have an 'e' after the 'i', not an 'a'.

 

Chris

 

 

 

Hello, I am not a pro. I am from Galicia - Spain. I work as a lawyer with my brother and my parents in our own lawyers office (in spanish language bufete de abogados), but I spend a lot of time playing and investigating about galician traditional music, and other etnographic things, I am now cursing antropological studies for a degree (?).

I play also diatonic accordion and galician bagpipes, and my brother wooden flute and bouzouki.

In Galicia is very difficult to be a proffesional musician, but we didn't intended to do it.

I do too many things, martial arts, music, etc. but I like all af them and I can leave anything ... ;-)

Regards

Félix Castro

 

the point of this "pro" thing continues to elude me the longer this thread gets. is the point, you're just curious to tote up who makes a living doing nothing but playing/teaching concertina regardless of who is really good? or is "pro" being used to mean "top-quality playing"? if it's the former, okay, i don't care about this, but fair play to those who are curious about it as an economic factoid. but if it's the latter, listing people who do nothing but play/teach indicates nothing about the number of quality concertina players out there. probably a large majority of really good, even great players, do something else as well, and so it has always been in folk music, and long may it be so. actually, just about all of my favorite concertina players do something else, as to many of my favorite "ethnomusicologists" or music historians. as pointed out earlier in this thread, it's not either/or....many people who play "professionally" do something else for the bulk of their living...the idea that you are a top-class folk artist as well as a dairy farmer, coffin maker, or yes, doctor or lawyer, is another great cultural value that for the last hundred or so years has been assaulted in all of the arts by the toxic american "artist only if you do nothing but" paradigm. i'm roaming afield now, but i've always found it funny that no one bats an eye over novelists or poets or playwrights who were/are barristers or avocats or doctors, but make weird distinctions about visual and musical artists who do the same....

[Randy Stein]

I think the word one should use is accomplished.

I consider myself an accomplished musician and my instrument is a Wheatstone 48 button concertina. I play professionally (meaning I get paid) and for years made my living playing in restaurants, cafes, shows,concerts, recordings, etc primarily in NYC. When I started a family 25 years ago I decided it was time to put it all on the back burner and recently I am playing again and being paid for most of my gigs. I seldom play traditional music though seek venues to see and hear those who play and play it well.I am part of an 8 piece group and I have two working instrumental duos.

The word pro is, for me a misnomer. That can mean professional as in making a living as a musician or having an career in the music business as a player, teacher, arranger, producer, etc. But to be a proficient, diverse, and accomplished musician and do so on the concertina...

rss

[david_boveri]

what about edel fox?

[Ptarmigan]

I'm confused!

 

Has it been established yet {for the sake of this thread at least} what exactly a Concertina Pro really is?

 

Is it someone who only makes their living from playing Concertina?

 

Or, are multi-instrumentalists who also play Concertinas to be included?

 

I'm thinking of someone like Brian McNeill who has been a professional musician, including with the Battlefield Band, since at least 1969.

He is thought of mostly as a singer, yet he usually includes Fiddle & Concertina somewhere in his performances & albums.

 

It would seem a little strange to me, to exclude someone like Brian, simply because he also sings & plays other instruments, yet include hobby players, who actually have full time jobs/careers but just happen to make a few bob now & then, playing their Concertinas.

For example, if they are Doctors or Librarians or Shop Assistants who just happen to get a few shillings once a week playing in their local pub session, can we really class them as being Concertina Pros?

 

I am a full time musician myself & for the last 12 years have made my living only from my music.

During every week of those 12 years, I have played my Concertinas in public .... for money.

However, I also play & teach the playing of other instruments, so although I am a full time/professional musician, I am a multi-instrumentalist, so I don't fit into this particular little box & can't actually call myself a Concertina Pro, or a Fiddle Pro, or a Dulcimer Pro, or a Mandolin Pro etc etc

Guess I'm just a humble musician .... plain & simple!

 

Anyone remember this song: ~ 'Little Boxes'?

 

Cheers

Dick

[m3838]

Hmm.

So you don't know who "professional lawyer" is?

Never seen "professional doctor"?

Never heard of professional cab driver/nurse/interpreter/movie director/actor/contractor/painter?

Seems like lots of responses sound like crashed self-esteem.

But why can't one be professional music teacher, professional concertina player, professional mandolin player and professional tennis player at the same time? While making most money from been professional crocodile catcher.

The deal is, most other professions have established set of standards one has to meet for certifications. Concertina happened to drop through the cracks of history. You go to professional Bandoneon competition and play your professional Duet Concertina and you'll raise eyebrows. One thing guaranteed - you'll be remembered and there is no bad publicity.

Working hard on been positive, am I not?

P.S.

While learning "Stormy Weather" and "Summer Night" on my EC, listening to lots of professional renditions on Youtube.

[Ptarmigan]

Hmm.

So you don't know who "professional lawyer" is?

Never seen "professional doctor"?

Never heard of professional cab driver/nurse/interpreter/movie director/actor/contractor/painter?

Seems like lots of responses sound like crashed self-esteem.

But why can't one be professional music teacher, professional concertina player, professional mandolin player and professional tennis player at the same time? While making most money from been professional crocodile catcher.

The deal is, most other professions have established set of standards one has to meet for certifications. Concertina happened to drop through the cracks of history. You go to professional Bandoneon competition and play your professional Duet Concertina and you'll raise eyebrows. One thing guaranteed - you'll be remembered and there is no bad publicity.

Working hard on been positive, am I not?

P.S.

While learning "Stormy Weather" and "Summer Night" on my EC, listening to lots of professional renditions on Youtube.

 

Well, rightly or wrongly m3838, the way I see it, a Lawyer who earns his living being a Lawyer, but who also plays a Concertina as a hobby, is surely a Professional Lawyer, not a Professional Concertina Player.

For me, it doesn't really matter how well he plays, he or she is still a Lawyer who plays Concertina as a Hobby.

Same goes for your Doctor etc etc

 

Dictionary definition for Professional:

 

1. (Business / Professions) a person who belongs to or engages in one of the professions

2. a person who engages for his livelihood in some activity also pursued by amateurs

 

However, the water is muddied a little by the 3rd definition:

 

3. a person who engages in an activity with great competence

 

For me, No 2 makes the most sense in this context. Others will, I am sure, beg to differ.

 

As for your "professional crocodile catcher", if he earns his living MOSTLY by catching Crocodiles, then I see THAT as his true profession.

 

............. but then of course nothing is ever cut & dried, or that simple, is it!

 

Cheers

Dick

[m3838]

As for your "professional crocodile catcher", if he earns his living MOSTLY by catching Crocodiles, then I see THAT as his true profession.

 

Well then, so now we know who is Concertina pro. It's someone who earns his living MOSTLY by playing Concertina.

[Jody Kruskal]

Yeah, who cares about the "little boxes?" Just go to my web site and buy my CDs... or stop by and get a lesson, or bring me to your school to teach your kids, or hire my band to entertain you or play for your dance, or hire me to write an original score for your theater or dance work or video game. Whatever.... I'll be happy to squeeze you in between my other duties as landlord, handyman, house husband, cook, father, etc.

Edited February 3, 2010 by Jody Kruskal

[Ptarmigan]

Yeah, who cares about the "little boxes?" Just go to my web site and buy my CDs... or stop by and get a lesson, or bring me to your school to teach your kids, or hire my band to entertain you or play for your dance, or hire me to write an original score for your theater or dance work or video game. Whatever.... I'll be happy to squeeze you in between my other duties as landlord, handyman, house husband, cook, father, etc.

 

Ah Ha Jody, so you are a "House Husband" then, are you?

 

In that case, your nickname over here would probably be .... 'Him Indoors'! see ... Minder

 

Sure you're not even the main breadwinner, so I guess you must only be in the ......... Part-Timer .. Little Box!

 

Cheers

Dick

[hjcjones]

When I first asked the question, by "professional" I had in mind people whose primary source of income comes from music. In this context, it means those for whom concertina is either their main instrument or at least one for which they are well-known. It would be ridiculous to exclude musicians such as John Kirkpatrick or Brian Peters, simply because they also play other instruments. However, musicians who are best known for playing other instruments but who also occasionally play concertina should probably be excluded.

 

I specifically excluded those who may be paid for playing in their spare time but whose main source of income comes from other occupations. I include myself in this category. It is of course possible for people to achieve a high level of success and recognition in what nevertheless remains for them a spare-time activity.

 

It was not a question about ability. Some of the most highly-respected players are not professionals in the financial sense.

 

My question was asked out of idle curiosity rather than seeking a rigorous scientific analysis, and was prompted by a claim made by another cnetter that 90% of concertina pros play Irish style. The analysis I made of the replies suggests this figure is exaggerated.

 

We collated 40 names, of whom 45% play Anglo, 45% English, 8% Duet, and 3% "unknown". As for musical genre, 33% play English music, 28% Irish, and 40% "other". Unsurprisingly, when we look only at the Anglo players, the proportion is different: 28% English, 50% Irish and 22% "other". Still a lot less than originally suggested.

 

The impression I get from the forum is that amongst cnetters, who of course include professionals, semi-professionals and pure amateurs, the majority does play Irish music. Or perhaps it is simply the most discussed.

[hjcjones]

I'm confused!

 

Has it been established yet {for the sake of this thread at least} what exactly a Concertina Pro really is?

 

Is it someone who only makes their living from playing Concertina?

 

Or, are multi-instrumentalists who also play Concertinas to be included?

 

I'm thinking of someone like Brian McNeill who has been a professional musician, including with the Battlefield Band, since at least 1969.

He is thought of mostly as a singer, yet he usually includes Fiddle & Concertina somewhere in his performances & albums.

 

It would seem a little strange to me, to exclude someone like Brian, simply because he also sings & plays other instruments, yet include hobby players, who actually have full time jobs/careers but just happen to make a few bob now & then, playing their Concertinas.

For example, if they are Doctors or Librarians or Shop Assistants who just happen to get a few shillings once a week playing in their local pub session, can we really class them as being Concertina Pros?

 

I am a full time musician myself & for the last 12 years have made my living only from my music.

During every week of those 12 years, I have played my Concertinas in public .... for money.

However, I also play & teach the playing of other instruments, so although I am a full time/professional musician, I am a multi-instrumentalist, so I don't fit into this particular little box & can't actually call myself a Concertina Pro, or a Fiddle Pro, or a Dulcimer Pro, or a Mandolin Pro etc etc

Guess I'm just a humble musician .... plain & simple!

 

Anyone remember this song: ~ 'Little Boxes'?

 

Cheers

Dick

 

As I hope my previous post explains, I was specifically excluding hobby players. I meant professional musicians for whom concertina was a significant instrument. It wasn't intended to put people into boxes, or form judgements about their (or other musicians') playing, simply to satisfy my own curiosity about the claimed dominance of Irish music amongst professional concertina players.

 

I'm not sufficiently familiar with Brian McNeill's music to know whether or not he should be included. I would exclude, for example, Ian Telfer of Oysterband (principally a fiddler who occasionally plays EC) or Michael Tubridy when he was with the Chieftains (occasionally anglo, but known mainly for flute and whistle). The rough guideline would be, if they were to stop playing concertina would it leave a big hole in their music?

 

As for you, Dick, if concertina is a significant element of what you do professionally then you should certainly be considered a "concertina professional" for the purposes of this discussion.

[Ptarmigan]

Sorry Howard, my comments are not to be taken too seriously.

 

I was just probing, to try & establish where exactly you saw the margin line between pro & non pro, and to be serious, from your distinction, neither Brian nor myself would fall into your Concertina Pro bracket.

 

Just as Brian is a Singer who also plays Concertina, amongst many other instruments, I am a Fiddle player, who also plays Concertinas.

 

Cheers

Dick