Who are the concertina pros?

[hjcjones]

If a busker can earn a living from it then so far as I am concerned he is a professional.

[m3838]

If a busker can earn a living from it then so far as I am concerned he is a professional.

 

Even if he is paid to go elsewhere.

[Randy Stein]

I often, in my early days of playing, sat in Central Park or Battery Park and opened my case and played. My partner Joey Bello, Mandolinist, and I would often play in NYC's Little Italy. It was not unusual to earn couple hundred dollars in an evening. Eventually I was hired. Either by one of the cafes or restaurants and also by the city to perform full time at the South Street Seaport. While I made very good money and was paid as a professional, I had to be at a certain place at a certain time and in some cases had a "costume" to wear.

As hard as it was, I look back on the days as a busker now with great fondness.

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[hjcjones]

While I made very good money and was paid as a professional, I had to be at a certain place at a certain time

 

That applies to most professionals, in any occupation

 

and in some cases had a "costume" to wear.

That too.

 

Do you want fries with that?

[Randy Stein]

Sadly yes.

To quote the Beatles...'it's all show biz"

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[ceemonster]

[Well, rightly or wrongly m3838, the way I see it, a Lawyer who earns his living being a Lawyer, but who also plays a Concertina as a hobby, is surely a Professional Lawyer, not a Professional Concertina Player. ] this is my point about the extremely recent narrowing of the paradigm as to how many metiers a person can be highly accomplished in. the idea of the "renaissance person" seems to have gotten lost in the last century or so. there is an unconscious rage in american society at least against those who can use their right-brain and left-brain sides to a high degree. the resentment is particularly discernible toward those who can do a left-brain metier requiring a high degree of education and professional specialization---i mean, paddy canny was a professional dairy farmer as well as a professional musican, and willy clancy was a professional coffin maker as well as a professional musician. bill loughnane, master musician of east clare and mainstay of the tulla ceili band in its glory days, was a doctor. davinci was a professional scientist as well as a professional artist. the great traditional artists of american-indian country are artists as well as cops, housewives, teachers, factory workers, etc. this has been going on since human history began; it's only recently that toxic dualism has set in. this is still going on even in itm, but the itm dual-pros keep mum about their other careers because of the noxious contemporary stereotype against multiple mastery. half of lunasa and danu are doctors and lawyers, folks! and 85% to 95% of those kiddies on the comhaltas live videos and rte radio's "bloom of youth" are going to university to qualify in professions----that is a fact. felix castro is a professional-quality lawyer and a professional quality musician, regardless of which metier provides the bulk of his living.

 

my theory about the advent of the dualistic paradigm is that the corporate-capitalist machine forces so many people to give up their right-brain side in order to "succeed" in left-brain fields that there is unconscious jealousy and envy toward those who can do both to a high degree of proficiency. "renaissance" style multiplicity of mastery MUST BE STAMPED OUT---because millions more COULD do both to a high degree of profiency----but if they were busy getting good at art forms, they wouldn't be buying enough video games, iphones, flat screen tvs and tickets to big-time corproate sports or bigtime corporate "entertainment to feed the corporate-capitalist machine!

Edited February 3, 2010 by ceemonster

[david_boveri]

well, clearly, the word professional means different things to different people. to me, an american, a professional is someone who can do something at a "professional level." then this opens the door of what constitutes a professional level of playing/etc. so, in summary:

 

1.) some people agree with me

2.) some people think it means someone who derives their living from a trade

 

i think that #2 is silly, because to me i know many professionals who happen to have another source of income.

 

that being said, i think it was established earlier on by looking at the original post and subsequent nitpicking, that the context of this discussion is viewpoint #2. so, i agree with anyone who contends that position #1 is more apt a definition, but i also concede that some people have a different opinion, and more importantly, the conversation was established to have meant point 2, ignoring the diverging definitions of the term professional.

 

i am enjoying the discussion, especially the william kimber biographical information.

 

edit:

this little summary seems a bit moot, and it is... i had originally tacked something onto the end of it, but i saw that someone already included the information i was looking for. i just can't delete it, so i might as well leave it!

Edited February 3, 2010 by david_boveri

[Randy Stein]

[Well, rightly or wrongly m3838, the way I see it, a Lawyer who earns his living being a Lawyer, but who also plays a Concertina as a hobby, is surely a Professional Lawyer, not a Professional Concertina Player. ] this is my point about the extremely recent narrowing of the paradigm as to how many metiers a person can be highly accomplished in. the idea of the "renaissance person" seems to have gotten lost in the last century or so. there is an unconscious rage in american society at least against those who can use their right-brain and left-brain sides to a high degree. the resentment is particularly discernible toward those who can do a left-brain metier requiring a high degree of education and professional specialization---i mean, paddy canny was a professional dairy farmer as well as a professional musican, and willy clancy was a professional coffin maker as well as a professional musician. bill loughnane, master musician of east clare and mainstay of the tulla ceili band in its glory days, was a doctor. davinci was a professional scientist as well as a professional artist. the great traditional artists of american-indian country are artists as well as cops, housewives, teachers, factory workers, etc. this has been going on since human history began; it's only recently that toxic dualism has set in. this is still going on even in itm, but the itm dual-pros keep mum about their other careers because of the noxious contemporary stereotype against multiple mastery. half of lunasa and danu are doctors and lawyers, folks! and 85% to 95% of those kiddies on the comhaltas live videos and rte radio's "bloom of youth" are going to university to qualify in professions----that is a fact. felix castro is a professional-quality lawyer and a professional quality musician, regardless of which metier provides the bulk of his living.

 

my theory about the advent of the dualistic paradigm is that the corporate-capitalist machine forces so many people to give up their right-brain side in order to "succeed" in left-brain fields that there is unconscious jealousy and envy toward those who can do both to a high degree of proficiency. "renaissance" style multiplicity of mastery MUST BE STAMPED OUT---because millions more COULD do both to a high degree of profiency----but if they were busy getting good at art forms, they wouldn't be buying enough video games, iphones, flat screen tvs and tickets to big-time corproate sports or bigtime corporate "entertainment to feed the corporate-capitalist machine!

My, my. An interesting discussion becoming a polemic commentary on american capitalism, brain dysfunction, and corporate enterprise.

My guitarist is a partner with a law firm. He also plays violin, piano, viola and paints. My pianist, who also is a virtuoso violin player, is a researcher for an agency that does first response in world wide calamities, like Haiti. I also work with a world class accordion player who is currently with the embassy in South Africa and has just produced his second solo album and plays all around the world. He is also a first class circus juggler. And we all receive ample compensation for everything we do.Whether that be monetary, professional, or personal.The artistic news in the US that makes it the world press is no different than what we see here from other countries. There are amazing individuals that use their mind and soul to create and be proficient on many levels at many things. But "toxic dualism"...I hope you are being tongue in cheeky.

The renaissance person is alive and well. Here and there. Because of society and in spite of it.

Peace. rss

Edited February 3, 2010 by Randy Stein

[m3838]

my theory about the advent of the dualistic paradigm is that the corporate-capitalist machine forces so many people to give up their right-brain side in order to "succeed" in left-brain fields that there is unconscious jealousy and envy those who can do both to a high degree of proficiency. "renaissance" style multiplicity of mastery MUST BE STAMPED OUT---because millions more COULD do both to a high degree of profiency----but if they were busy getting good at art forms, they wouldn't be buying enough video games, iphones, flat screen tvs and tickets to big-time corproate sports or bigtime corporate "entertainment to feed the corporate-capitalist machine!

 

That's a light weighted theory.

Corporate culture nurtures and is proud of people with multiple talents. Company shows, Talent shows, invitations of famous cultural figures for speaking on Company's expense etc.

Division of labour made work very intensive and goods cheap. Another aspect is comparison of wages between artists and craftsmen. San Francisco Symphony musician makes some $60K a year. Minimum income for family of 4 in their own house is $100K. Equally good programmer working for Google makes $150K to $200K a year.

It can be argued that fully developed person will have broader spectrum of interests and enough money to invest in multiple hobbies and past time. Better all over education is good for corporate-capitalist machine, whether it exists or not.

It was also argued by Leo Tolstoy, that professional engagement in arts is reactionary, serves only the whims of upper classes and is far from real art. He was opposed to art schools and made jokes about large art productions of his day. To Tolstoy, there is nothing more humiliating that be called "professional artist". Chehkov, another great Russian Author, was proud of his medical background. He wasn't great doctor, but good enough to earn a living. Both had to abandon their trades (Tolstoy was professional Hussar in the rank of Colonel) and dedicate most time to writing. In his 45yo Tolstoy's estate was bringing him some 500-700K rubles a year. His books were making him 800 000 rubles a year.

Famous Russian Actor, Vladimir Vysotsky, was making modest living in theatre and movies, but real fame attained through his songs, which he accompanied on guitar. Songs didn't bring him any wealth, only threats from officials. Another significant Russian composer and performer,

, doctor in the past, still introduces himself as such.

So integrated brain exists, only one can't always make a living by it. However I don't believe man ever could. In this respect nothing changed.

 

 

Edited February 3, 2010 by m3838

[Ptarmigan]

Looking again at the Dictionary definition for Professional, it is clear that we are ALL CORRECT ...... & ALL WRONG!

 

Professional

pro⋅fes⋅sion⋅al

Pronunciation [pruh-fesh-uh-nl]

–adjective

1. following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain: a professional builder.

2. of, pertaining to, or connected with a profession: professional studies.

3. appropriate to a profession: professional objectivity.

4. engaged in one of the learned professions: A lawyer is a professional person.

5. following as a business an occupation ordinarily engaged in as a pastime: a professional golfer.

6. making a business or constant practice of something not properly to be regarded as a business: “A salesman,” he said, “is a professional optimist.”

7. undertaken or engaged in as a means of livelihood or for gain: professional baseball.

8. of or for a professional person or his or her place of business or work: a professional apartment; professional equipment.

9. done by a professional; expert: professional car repairs.

–noun

10. a person who belongs to one of the professions, esp. one of the learned professions.

11. a person who earns a living in a sport or other occupation frequently engaged in by amateurs: a golf professional.

12. an expert player, as of golf or tennis, serving as a teacher, consultant, performer, or contestant; pro.

13. a person who is expert at his or her work: You can tell by her comments that this editor is a real professional.

 

It's an interesting topic though, especially when you look at classical Greek philosophy, where I believe music was one of the 4 disicplines and musicians were classed as disciplinarians.

 

i.e.:

Doctor-professional

Stone Mason-tradesman

Musician-disciplinarian

 

Your place in society was apparently based on the Greek's perception of utility, so a mason back then, was more utilitarian then a doctor.

 

I'm not sure of the ins and outs of this, but the disciplines superceeded the orders of utility and basically, the disciplinarians were the coolest. .... I can go along with that!

 

However, this whole discussion is kind of going round in circles, because the term 'professional' has evolved over the years and where it once was used only in reference to practictioners of medicine, law or divinity, it has now expanded to include other professions (like architecture, teaching, nursing, therapists, etc) as well as the arts and sports.

 

It seems like the term is often appropriated by any group that wants to acquire a degree of esteem or authority (while the traditional 'professions' fight to keep the term all to themselves to protect their own validity).

 

Professional 'artist' (musician, painter, actor...whatever...) is a funny term because it takes two words that have somewhat fuzzy definitions and combines them into one totally incomprehensible glob.

 

To many people - the term 'Artist' is actually more meaningful than 'professional', so to them - adding professional to it, actually denigrates it a little bit, whereas those who are more insecure might want to use the professional designation, because it makes them feel more respectable.

 

That's why I'm quite happy to think of myself simply as a full time Musician & would far rather be thought of as an Artist, than as a Professional!

 

After all, we should never forget what the world's oldest profession is .....

 

Cheers

Dick

[John Wild]

Many years ago when I was getting my basic training with a firm of accountants, an accountant who after qualifying took up employment with an industrial/commercial company was said to have 'left the profession' !! I have not heard the term used in more recent years.

 

- John Wild

Edited February 4, 2010 by John Wild

[ceemonster]

[That's a light weighted theory.] Why, thank you.

 

 

[Corporate culture nurtures and is proud of people with multiple talents. Company shows, Talent shows, invitations of famous cultural figures for speaking on Company's expense etc.] the fact that corporations sponsor "cultural enrichment events" for their employees is completely inapposite on the question of whether they want the pool of consumers out there to become artists in their spare time rather than consume "entertainment" products.

 

and as for corporations being "proud of people with multiple talents," while that too is completely irrelevant to the consumer point i was making, i assure you that the corporate employees i know who practice artistic metiers at a high enough level of proficiency to have "other lives" in those metiers, tend to be very discreet about that fact with their corporate masters and their HR departments.

[Ptarmigan]

[That's a light weighted theory.] Why, thank you.

 

 

[Corporate culture nurtures and is proud of people with multiple talents. Company shows, Talent shows, invitations of famous cultural figures for speaking on Company's expense etc.] the fact that corporations sponsor "cultural enrichment events" for their employees is completely inapposite on the question of whether they want the pool of consumers out there to become artists in their spare time rather than consume "entertainment" products.

 

and as for corporations being "proud of people with multiple talents," while that too is completely irrelevant to the consumer point i was making, i assure you that the corporate employees i know who practice artistic metiers at a high enough level of proficiency to have "other lives" in those metiers, tend to be very discreet about that fact with their corporate masters and their HR departments.

 

From what you say, it sounds a bit like these corporate professionals are in some ways ashamed of their artistic other lives, when they are in corporate circles & likewise ashamed of their corporate lives, when in musical circles!

 

What's the word for a split personality again .... ?

 

I must say, it all sounds far too complicated, to me.

 

Thank goodness, wherever I go, I can just be ... Me!

 

Cheers

Dick

[sympathy]

I'm a musician by profession.

That is to say, all my income is derived from playing, writing, teaching, recording and producing music. (and has been for many years)

I don't make musical instruments (although I have), I tend to break them and have them repaired.

I play the English Concertina, in public and on record. (sometimes!)

I'm very "ordinary" at it.

 

............ does that help?

[michael sam wild]

I think I'm a retired University teacher ( my profession) who always had a vocation or calling , rather than a hobby, as a musician and was lucky enough to make a few bob on the side.

[RatFace]

but if they were busy getting good at art forms, they wouldn't be buying enough video games ... to feed...

 

... me*! And subsidise my amateurish concertina playing

[Ptarmigan]

I think I'm a retired University teacher ( my profession) who always had a vocation or calling , rather than a hobby, as a musician and was lucky enough to make a few bob on the side.

 

Steady Michael, we're having enough bother here already, trying to sort out a definition for the word Professional, that everyone can agree on.

 

Perhaps you could start another thread, where we can all argue the toss over the words Vocation, Calling & Hobby!

 

I wonder if there's a Word Definition Forum somewhere on line, where, at this very moment, they are discussing .................... Concertinas!

 

Cheers

Dick

[felix castro]

Well, I answered about a question that I understood was if I made the music my living. And of course there are a lot of different questions involved in the "proffesional" theme.

I am of the opinion that people can be proffesional in several backgrounds, as we know today with the pluriemployed (?), as you told of Willie Clancy, etc. but nowadays people usually when say "proffesional" musician (and other arts, painting, writing, etc.) they think in persons that earns money exclusively with music, or painting, or writing, something similar to pop or rock stars and film stars.

 

Proffesional musicians aren't automatically the best players, as many people think wrongly.

Here in Spain people thinks the same, that proffesional implies better directly, without more reasons, but the reality can be different.

 

I respect a lot the musicians that make their life with the music, earning money for living, etc. because it is a very important decision in your life and the most part of them are very brave for doing it.

 

But some of them don't spend more hours of efective playing than musicians that have another way of earning money for living, or they don't play better that other persons that are "amateurs" (lovers in french language, in this case lovers of music).

Of course they could be better because they could spend more time playing and perfecting their technic than others that have another job, but some of them don't.

 

When I hear the word "proffesional" I tremble, I remember the last one I heard it, a tv antennas repairer, that said "don't worry, I am a proffesional", and the first thing he did was to perforate a water piping when he was installing a tv antenna, and moreover he hasn't any insurance in his job.

 

A few cases that I know about "proffesional" musicians they play since years exactly the same things, and the worst of them they become "mafiosi", with managements agencies for contracting directly their own groups with a high price, producing a lot of their own discs, etc. etc. I know also a few "proffesional" musicians that exclude of their circles a few other musicians that are "amateurs", but they remember them if there is a festival where they don't have money for earning. Of course this type of musicians they are the narrower minded.

 

As we know in the past a lot of musicians (popular musicians mainly) weren't "proffesional" full time -at least here in Galicia and Spain- they were peasants, farmers, etc. etc. and played in a social reduced context and it doesn't imply that they were better or worse musicians. Many of them when they played they earned money with it too.

 

A thing that I don't like is when people that earn money playing, when play, makes something similar to the taxi driver, they put the clock and play exactly the time the people pay. Or that they finally don't enjoy themselves when playing. I earn money playing from time to time but it isn't my mainly income, in August, when I have holidays is when musicians play more in Spain, and it is the month when I close my office and I go out of my town with my family and I couldn't be working and on holidays going to festivals to play moreover.

 

I have many friends that are "proffesional" musicians and I play usually with them, and they treat me as another fellow musician, they appreciate the art of the music independtly from where or whom it comes.

 

It occurs in many ways of the life, I have practised martial arts for 28 years, but for some people, as I am not a teacher and I haven't a gym, I aren't a master, independently of my level, and people have their part of reason.

I am studying anthropology now and I have done with my twin brother for many years a lot of field work recordings of galician traditional musicians, and I have published with my brother several books about galician traditional music, but as we aren't proffesional writers, or better, as people think that we earn money with our lawyers jobs and that for us the music is "only" a hobby, when we ask for money for our work -that really it is only a compensation for all the time and money that we spent for searching information, investigating, etc.- they answer, ah but we thought that you didn't want any money at all and that you are lucky enough and you would be glad only if we publish your book!.

(If you want to look some of the books they are in pdf in internet, without the recordings, and they are in galician language, very similar to portuguese, but with spanish transcription, I can give you the links).

 

Sorry because of my long reply and my bad english, and once again all my respect and admiration for the musicians that decide to make of the music his life full time.

 

Félix Castro