Jack vs. Jackie

[Don Taylor]

Folks:

 

I am sure that you must be tired of answering newbie questions about which concertina to buy, but I have searched the forums and made a tentative decision to buy a Jack so I have done some of the work.

 

I am interested in English (not Irish except for Carolan) tunes, hymns and WWI and WWII soldier's songs (which are often set to hymn tunes). I like the sound of the English concertina especially in the lower registers. The sound samples of the Jack on CC really appeal to me (it is hard to judge the Jackie sounds on CC because they were sampled at such a low bit-rate that they sound as if they are being recorded underwater).

 

But. There have been a few postings that hint that baritone English concertinas, including the Jack, are not easy for beginners to use - and I would be a rank beginner who would have to be self-taught.

 

My questions:

 

- Would I be hobbling myself by buying a Jack right away, or should I buy a Jackie instead even if I find its sound not quite to my taste? (Just how 'honky' is the Jackie anyway?)

 

- If I do buy a Jackie now and later want to buy a Jack as well then would there be any re-learning required? I understand that they are an octave apart so if I learn some tunes on a Jackie then can I later pick up a Jack and play the same tunes in the same key in the same way on a Jack or would other adaptations have to be made - different key and/or different fingering?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Don.

[Leo]

Folks:

........................................

The sound samples of the Jack on CC really appeal to me (it is hard to judge the Jackie sounds on CC because they were sampled at such a low bit-rate that they sound as if they are being recorded underwater).

 

My questions:

................ (Just how 'honky' is the Jackie anyway?)

....................

Thanks in advance,

 

Don.

Hi Don

 

Maybe these different sound samples will help you decide:

Jack

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALqNzEDCKnE&fmt=18

 

Jackie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iodSvF5M6n8&fmt=18

 

Thanks

Leo

[Don Taylor]

Maybe these different sound samples will help you decide:

 

Thanks Leo:

 

Hmmm... The Jackie is OK, but I still prefer the sound of the Jack so my questions about its usability for a beginner still stand.

[Larry Stout]

If you like the sound of the baritone and are interested in O'Carolan, hymns, and songs I'd say the baritone is fine as a place to start. I have both a baritone and (several) trebles. I love the mellow sound of the baritone. The only disadvantage I've found are that it is hard to hear myself when playing in a group if there are other instruments in the same range. I tend to use a treble in a session or when playing (unamplified) for dancing.

 

My baritone is 160 years old and was designed for parlor use, not for loud sessions. The treble I use in sessions and for dances is quite loud. The treble may be a little faster to respond, but I haven't reached the point in my playing where that is any problem. I'm comparing vintage Wheatstones, not a Jack and a Jackie, so the differences I notice may be much more pronounced. One disadvantage to falling in love with the sound of a baritone is that vintage baritones are quite a lot harder to find than vintage trebles.

 

Fingering and most of the bellows technique are the same on treble and baritone, so learning carries over between the two seamlessly. Should your foray into the world of concertinas lead to concertina acquisition syndrome you may end up with both; you'll have little trouble trading off between the two.

[JimLucas]

Maybe these different sound samples will help you decide:

 

Jack

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALqNzEDCKnE&fmt=18

 

Jackie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iodSvF5M6n8&fmt=18

I've played Jackies, but I haven't yet had the pleasure of a Jack.

 

A pity that we don't have examples of Chantal playing both numbers on both instruments. I can't tell whether she's playing something slower on the Jack because it doesn't respond well enough to play the faster piece up to speed, or whether it's just because her musical taste equates "deeper" with "slower". Also, she doesn't play more than one note at a time on the Jackie, though of course, she could.

 

I will say that for the most part the Jack in her video seems to respond well enough, without noticeable hesitation on the lower notes. The one exception is the first time she plays that low G. And there I wonder whether it couldn't have been avoided. Shortly afterward there's another hesitation, but it's on the upper E as well as the low G, and it looks like she had trouble with the bellows reversal (came sooner than she expected?).

 

I know that the low reeds on my lower-pitched Wheatstones and Lachenals will speak quickly, but they need a bit more pressure to do so than the higher reeds require. If Chantal wasn't all that used to playing on the Jack, that might account for the "glitches".

 

Bufflehead, given the sort of music you want to play, I think the Jack should be a good place to begin, and not a hindrance. But keep in mind that this opinion is coming from someone who hasn't actually played a Jack, who has based his opinion mainly on experience with other instruments and an analysis of Chantal's video.

[SteveS]

Don

 

If I'm using a treble EC for song accompaniment I tend to find myself playing at the lower end of the compass of the instrument, I then dont have the low notes that can be so satisfying as with the baritone. For song accompaniment with the baritone, I play in the same octave as on the treble, but with the emphasis on the other hand of the instrument, but this time I can add some of the lower notes that the baritone offers. If I play the baritone fingering on the treble, I find that I'm playing some rather high pitched notes that I don't particularly like in my song accompaniment.

 

The disadvantage of this approach is that 2 different sets of fingerings must be learned for the accompaniment to any one song if it is to be played on the treble and then on the baritone.

 

Good luck

 

Steve

[JimLucas]

The disadvantage of this approach is that 2 different sets of fingerings must be learned for the accompaniment to any one song if it is to be played on the treble and then on the baritone.

You already said it, Steve, but just to emphasize:

You need to learn two different fingerings,

if

you're going to play the same accompaniment

sounding in the same octave

on both instruments.

But as you've also noted, that's not likely to be a satisfying goal, because there's not much point in using a baritone if you're only going to play the notes that can also be played on the treble, yet if you play a baritone accompaniment an octave higher on the treble, it just doesn't sound the same.

 

So if you're going to use both baritone and treble to accompany the same song (presumably not at the same time ), you're probably going to develop different accompaniments, and the two sets of fingerings will be different, anyway.

 

But are the fingerings for particular musical patterns really different between the treble and baritone? Or equivalently, between two different octaves on either? I maintain that the answer is no.

 

It's true that in terms of "right" and "left", they're opposite. But in terms of "this side" and "the other side", they're exactly the same. And if you think that's a difficult concept to get used to, then I would point out that that's how people walk... each new step being on the "opposite" foot, no matter what foot was used for the step before.

[John Adey]

- Would I be hobbling myself by buying a Jack right away, or should I buy a Jackie instead even if I find its sound not quite to my taste? (Just how 'honky' is the Jackie anyway?)

 

- If I do buy a Jackie now and later want to buy a Jack as well then would there be any re-learning required? I understand that they are an octave apart so if I learn some tunes on a Jackie then can I later pick up a Jack and play the same tunes in the same key in the same way on a Jack or would other adaptations have to be made - different key and/or different fingering?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Don.

 

If you prefer the lower pitch then go for the Jack; having tried both there's very little difference in the ease of playing.

So long as you accept you're in a different octave - one octave lower on the Jack - there is no difference in fingering.

 

(BUT, if your finances can possibly stretch to a Morse Albion baritone that would be a far, far superior instrument for what you want!)

[Don Taylor]

On buying a better instrument: I understand what you are saying, but I think that the best I can manage right now is a Jack.

 

Another problem is that I don't know enough to keep myself out of trouble when buying a vintage instrument.

 

I can see moving onto a Morse Albion after I have proved to the Auditor-General (and myself) that I am going to keep at it.

 

Don.

[JimLucas]

buy a Dipper or a Wheatstone,quality instruments.

Indeed they are, but... "a Dipper"?

 

Do you know of a Dipper English for sale somewhere?

 

I don't think waiting for a new Dipper, if Don gets on Colin's list now, would be an effective way to get started.

[Leo]

Hi Don

 

Maybe a Morse comparison will help.

Morse Baritone Concertina

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-h7K-BjzZFs&fmt=18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atzt0mCGDKY&fmt=18

 

Morse Treble Concertina

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roVztoQs5qM&fmt=18

 

I own a Morse Albion and like it a lot. I didn't know until Jim mentioned it above, an this surprised me. The Jack/Jackie have the same button layout. In the sheet music, the lines are played on the left and the spaces are played on the right. So a middle C is a middle C on the Jackie, but if played on a Jack, it is an octave lower. The same holds true for the Albion. So the fingering is the same on both instruments, unless as Jim mentioned in his note on same octave on different instruments. (I think I got that correct)

 

Morse Albion Keys and Chords, Morse Albion Keys and Chords

http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php...ost&p=92177

 

Traditional keyboard layout (the Jack sounds one octave

lower than notated)

http://www.concertinaconnection.com/jackie%20layout.htm

 

Thanks

Leo

[TomB-R]

buy a Dipper or a Wheatstone,quality instruments.

 

Don't waste your time with a Ford Focus, just buy a Bentley, so much better.....

[NoNaYet]

Just my two cents.

 

My favorite medleys are American Civil War and WWI tunes, and I play a Tedrow baritone Anglo.

 

NNY

[Dirge]

On buying a better instrument: I understand what you are saying, but I think that the best I can manage right now is a Jack.

 

Another problem is that I don't know enough to keep myself out of trouble when buying a vintage instrument.

 

I can see moving onto a Morse Albion after I have proved to the Auditor-General (and myself) that I am going to keep at it.

 

Don.

 

One argument for buying a quality instrument at the outset is even a beginner can get glimpses of how great it's going to sound which is a huge encouragement to learn, but I understand the Auditor General problem too. (You will find the real trouble there comes when you realise that you really need 2, or even worse three concertinas. Then you will be permanently rehashing this conversation: 'Why do you need three?', 'Well they are all quite different, sweetheart.', 'But you can only play one at a time...')

 

As long as you stick with the speciallist dealers they all have excellent reputations and you should at least have a conversation with Chris Algar, or the Button Box, or the like (I don't know where you are) and find out what your options are for a decent vintage box from a reputable source who will guarantee it's soundness. They are all very genuine and you'll undoubtedly learn lots, even if you then stick to your (probably very sensible) course of buying a Jack. They might even have a trade-in Jack going at a reasonable rate.

[koeter]

Hi Don

 

Maybe a Morse comparison will help.

Morse Baritone Concertina

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-h7K-BjzZFs&fmt=18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atzt0mCGDKY&fmt=18

 

Morse Treble Concertina

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roVztoQs5qM&fmt=18

 

I own a Morse Albion and like it a lot. I didn't know until Jim mentioned it above, an this surprised me. The Jack/Jackie have the same button layout. In the sheet music, the lines are played on the left and the spaces are played on the right. So a middle C is a middle C on the Jackie, but if played on a Jack, it is an octave lower. The same holds true for the Albion. So the fingering is the same on both instruments, unless as Jim mentioned in his note on same octave on different instruments. (I think I got that correct)

 

Morse Albion Keys and Chords, Morse Albion Keys and Chords

http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php...ost&p=92177

 

Traditional keyboard layout (the Jack sounds one octave

lower than notated)

http://www.concertinaconnection.com/jackie%20layout.htm

 

Thanks

Leo

 

 

Hi Leo,

In this context, and because I am also interested in a Morse Bariton I have a question:

Compared to a Morse Albion is the one octave more in a 48 key EC very usefull? The notes in folk tunes and most classics as Bach seldem extend 3rd D. Would therefore a 37 key instrument generally satisfy nearly all requirements?

Best regards Juergen

[Leo]

Hi Juergen

Hi Leo,

In this context, and because I am also interested in a Morse Bariton I have a question:

Compared to a Morse Albion is the one octave more in a 48 key EC very usefull?

I've looked at the music I play and have nothing that goes above the "A" on the left side of the Albion, and nothing that goes below the "B" on the right side. I can't advise about a 48 key as I've never held one or played one.

The notes in folk tunes and most classics as Bach seldem extend 3rd D. Would therefore a 37 key instrument generally satisfy nearly all requirements?

Best regards Juergen

The music I play doesn't get very complicated. I play mostly melody lines from movies, a little Bach, a few hymns, ballads, a couple of O'Carolans pieces, and the like. The two octaves available in the Treble Albion satisfy all the requirements of the varied music I play.

 

Thanks

Leo

[Larry Stout]

Two tunes I play regularly go outside the range of the Albion: Bambarini's Tamborine goes up to a D above the staff; Scott Skinner's tune The Mathmatician uses more of the staff than I can easily read and makes use of all of a 48 button EC's range. Several tunes I play use the C that would be the top of the range of an Albion. That leaves a lot of material that the 37 button version would work just fine for. In particular, most folk music written for fiddle assumes that the fiddler doesn't go out of first position, hence using only notes from the G below middle C (bottom of a 48 putton treble EC) to the B a bit over two octaves higher. That's in the range of the Albion.

[saguaro_squeezer]

This has been an enlightening thread since I'm in bufflehead's postion as well ... buying my first concertina and wanting a baritone. I've ended up purchasing a Jack because I've not played before and don't have the >$1800 available for used Morse baritone. That said, I intend to begin saving for one starting now.