English Or Irish Style?

[LDT]

ok...I wanted to know (its probably a really obvious question).

I know there's Irish style and English style for playing but is there certain songs for certain styles or can you play any song in either style?

[David Levine]

I am an Anglo player, living in Ireland and playing a C/G concertina. What I say is based on this.

There are few tunes that appear in both repertoires. But they are there. And they are not played the same way or even in the same key.

As far as the Anglo concertina is concerned, and this is my own generalized take on it and not the word of God, an Irish player will play across the rows with minimal chordal accompaniment, concentrating on melody and ornamentation.

An English musicians will play up and down the rows with a lot of chordal accompaniment.

You can play any tune (songs have words) or song in either style, of course, but it might not sound right in translation. I feel the same way about an Irish tune played by a classical violinist: the tune is there but it will lack the life it had closer to its source.

You should get a copy of the 3-disc collection of concertina players from http://www.angloconcertina.co.uk. That will answer a lot of your questions.

[PeterT]

... whatever happened to originality.

I agree, Dick. If we all played the instrument the same way, life would be boring. Who knows, by experimenting with the instrument, different aspects of playing might be discovered (which might then be copied by others! ).

 

Regards,

Peter.

[Alan Day]

A very simple analysis is that for English Style the tune is mostly played on the right hand and chords on the left for Irish Music the tunes are mostly played across the two rows right hand and left.

I will however be posting an Irish tune shortly that mainly involves the right hand and can easily be played by an English Style player ,but it is the only one I have found so far.

Al

Edited September 7, 2008 by Alan Day

[David Levine]

You quoted my post so I assume you're talking to me.

 

there is no one english or irish style,there is much diversity of both --

Yes, of course there is diversity. But if you think there aren't two distinct styes then you should have your hearing checked. On the Anglo International CDs I suggested, compare Alan O'Day and Mary MacNamara- tracks 1&2 and 24-26. They're very different styles, as I said.

 

[imo]you should try both the different approaches,and play the way that appeals to you the most.

Both approaches? I thought you said there isn't one style of each? Sure, everybody should play the way they want to. But why would you slag anybody who hears a trad style and wants to play within the tradition?

 

Try and develop your own style.

Sure. I'd just rather develop my own style within a distinct tradition.

 

Ignore anyone who tries to tell you you are not playing in an authentic style,

Depends on whether you want to play in an "authentic" style or not - that's your word, not mine. If a great player tries to steer me in one directiobn is that a bad thing?

 

most of those people are so narrow minded, (who for instance is "so narrow minded"?) they sound like second rate carbon copies of someone else,in fact there is a phenomenona now among irish anglo concertina players,which I would call the Carthy copy cat sdyndrome[the famous guitarist who in the sixties seventies seventies,eighties,was unfortunate enough to have third rate clones in every folk club],but now its two or three irish anglo players whose every ornamentation is being faithfully/slavishly imitated.whatever happened to originality.

 

This is just a silly rant. Is there something wrong with taking lessons from an accomplished player and incorporating that in your playing? There are dozens of great concertina players now who are teaching within an "authentic" tradition. They aren't copying each other. If you listen you can hear the differences. If you're just a casual listener they all sound the same. Are all those fiddlers who learned from Michael Coleman only second rate carbon copies of someone else?

[Constant Screamer]

I was SO glad to see Peter and Dick's replies. In addition to Eng concertina...I also play bluegrass banjo and "Old Time" (god I hate that term) fiddle. Every once in awhile, especially in OT fiddle music, you run in to these folks who can't help pointing out "you're not playing that tune right."

 

Of course, if the melody doesn't even SOUND like the tune...they're justified...but variation on a tune is as old as the tune itself. So, what IS right?

 

It's a comfort to this Yank who plays to know that our friends across the sea aren't so very hung up on all of us sounding exactly like the next guy.

[Dana Johnson]

Ignore anyone who tries to tell you you are not playing in an authentic style,most of those people are so narrow minded,they sound like second rate carbon copies of someone else,in fact there is a phenomenona now among irish anglo concertina players,which I would call the Carthy copy cat sdyndrome[the famous guitarist who in the sixties seventies seventies,eighties,was unfortunate enough to have third rate clones in every folk club],but now its two or three irish anglo players whose every ornamentation is being faithfully/slavishly imitated.whatever happened to originality.

Oh, Nicely said! One of the great treats is hearing someone with a new style that still gives the music room for full expression. After all, the people being slavishly copied these days are copied because listening to them is fun. There is a lot to be said from a good background in how those who have gone before us have approached the instrument, because many of them have a good grounding in the music itself as handed down and developed over the centuries. Their approach hopefully carries with it the important features of the Music itself irrespective of what it is played on.

 

My own experience ( as a cross row anglo player )is that one of the major differences between English and Irish music is rhythmic. Both countries have long dance traditions, but they are not the same, neither are their singing traditions. The rhythms have a large influence on the playing styles even extremely locally ( in the recent past anyway ) in Ireland This shows up a lot in concertina players, and there is a lot of room for different ways of playing that all have their own ways of dealing with the rhythm. The Anglo is well suited to expressing rhythm and fits Irish music extremely well. It certainly isn't limited to that though.

 

In the end I think "style" is best left to how the nature of the music itself influences each players search for a technique that expresses it as best they hear it. I remember Noel Hill talking about the need to keep grace notes below the level of the melody so they didn't dominate it and I feel the same way about playing styles The best ones leave the music intact and help to breathe life into it. The worst bury the music under the domination of the features of the style of playing itself, sometimes tending to showcase the player not the music.

Dana

[Rod]

Those who attempt to replicate a supposedly 'authentic' style of music (or musician) are surely missing out on all the fun of freedom of self expression, exploration, creativity, improvisation etc. etc.

[LDT]

A very simple analysis is that for English Style the tune is mostly played on the right hand and chords on the left for Irish Music the tunes are mostly played across the two rows right hand and left.

I will however be posting an Irish tune shortly that mainly involves the right hand and can easily be played by an English Style player ,but it is the only one I have found so far.

Al

 

So is there any rule in say..erm..for example that you can't play the chords on the right and the tunes on the left?

[Dirge]

A very simple analysis is that for English Style the tune is mostly played on the right hand and chords on the left for Irish Music the tunes are mostly played across the two rows right hand and left.

I will however be posting an Irish tune shortly that mainly involves the right hand and can easily be played by an English Style player ,but it is the only one I have found so far.

Al

 

So is there any rule in say..erm..for example that you can't play the chords on the right and the tunes on the left?

 

Well your answer is already there in lots of previous posts; if it sounds good, do it, don't NOT do it because no one else is at the moment.

 

Switching the tune to the bass and putting in a light treble chord accompaniment is a good device for varying things to keep up the interest when you're playing a tune over and over.

[LDT]

Well your answer is already there in lots of previous posts; if it sounds good, do it, don't NOT do it because no one else is at the moment.

 

Switching the tune to the bass and putting in a light treble chord accompaniment is a good device for varying things to keep up the interest when you're playing a tune over and over.

I just have a tendancy to play instruments left handed. lol! Plus I think it sounds nicer.

[Azalin]

Those who attempt to replicate a supposedly 'authentic' style of music (or musician) are surely missing out on all the fun of freedom of self expression, exploration, creativity, improvisation etc. etc.

 

I'd also say, those who don't attempt to reproduce an 'authentic' style miss all sort of fun, too. I take great pleasure in playing with those who are trying to share a common language, there's things there you can't find on the other side of the pond.

[PeterT]

So is there any rule in say..erm..for example that you can't play the chords on the right and the tunes on the left?

I think the first rule of Anglo playing is that there are no rules. However, there are "usual" ways of doing things.

 

Are you left-handed?

 

Melody on the left and chords/counter-melody on the right certainly goes against the "norm", but would overcome certain problems which plague all concertina players.

 

Full "low" chords overpower a "high" melody line, which is one reason why many of us advise against playing full chords. However, if you put the chord above the melody line, the problem will almost certainly vanish. I remember having a similar debate in Dave Townsend's workshop at Witney 2006. We were discussing it with reference to the English keyboard, but it should apply equally to Anglos and Duets.

 

If you can "mix and match" between the left and right hands playing melody, with the chords going in the opposite direction, then I think it will take the Anglo into seldom-charted waters (at least in recent years!).

 

So; LDT, a good question.

 

Regards,

Peter.

[LDT]

Are you left-handed?

no I write right handed, but I eat left handed, sew left handed and, tend to play instruments left handed. Weird huh?

 

Melody on the left and chords/counter-melody on the right certainly goes against the "norm", but would overcome certain problems which plague all concertina players.

 

Full "low" chords overpower a "high" melody line, which is one reason why many of us advise against playing full chords. However, if you put the chord above the melody line, the problem will almost certainly vanish. I remember having a similar debate in Dave Townsend's workshop at Witney 2006. We were discussing it with reference to the English keyboard, but it should apply equally to Anglos and Duets.

 

If you can "mix and match" between the left and right hands playing melody, with the chords going in the opposite direction, then I think it will take the Anglo into seldom-charted waters (at least in recent years!).

Thanks for the info. Wish I could get good enough to mix n match. I'm surprised no ones tried it before.

 

So; LDT, a good question.

thanks.

[Chris Timson]

Reading through this lot, I think only Dana has really picked on what, for me, is the key point. The reason that there are different styles of playing is because the underlying musical traditions are different. After all, by the time the concertina (indeed all the free reed aerophones) came on the scene the national, regional and local styles were long established. People who chose to play the instrument were faced with the challenge of finding techniques that worked with the music.

 

I think it not surprising that there were many diverse styles of playing devised to meet the challenge. It's rather sad that we only know of three historical English styles of anglo playing: the left hand chording of William Kimber, the parallel octaves of Scan Tester and the full-on chromatic playing of Fred Kilroy. Even here the disparity of approach makes it difficult to indulge in generalisations, but what they all had in common was that they made the music work and the dancers dance (another of my perennial themes is that traditional music is largely dance music, and you ignore this at your peril. Kimber, Tester and Kilroy were all dance musicians).

 

I guess what I'm saying is that you don't choose a style in isolation. You decide what music you want to play and work out the best way to play it. You may do that by learning the style of musicians you respect, or you may strike out in a new direction, or some combination of the two. But it's the music that drives the choices, not the other way round.

 

Chris

 

Edited to add PS: reading this again, I realise I am taking it for granted we are talking about traditional music. If we're not, then stylistically all bets are off. But I stand by my last sentence even then.

Edited September 8, 2008 by Chris Timson

[LDT]

I guess what I'm saying is that you don't choose a style in isolation. You decide what music you want to play and work out the best way to play it. You may do that by learning the style of musicians you respect, or you may strike out in a new direction, or some combination of the two. But it's the music that drives the choices, not the other way round.

I like all the traditional stuff...but I also like modern music (well modernish...popular stuff like the beatles etc.) which people around me would know better than the trad stuff and I would love to try and play some of that. But I'm not sure how to.

[tombilly]

I guess what I'm saying is that you don't choose a style in isolation. You decide what music you want to play and work out the best way to play it.

 

Hmm, I would qualify this by saying that really you should try and play music in your own tradition. It's about the culture and traditions of that in which you were brought up and/or now live in. So, if you are Russian or live in Russia, well play Russian folk ... USA, try American folk ... etc. etc. That gives you a sense of rootedness and adds additional meaning to your music making. It also conserves cultural differences and stops us all becoming some big mish mash of McDonald's.

 

Of course, by all means .. delve into the music of other styles but your primary music should that which is local - 'think global, act local' etc.

Edited September 8, 2008 by tombilly

[Chris Timson]

Of course, by all means .. delve into the music of other styles but your primary music should that which is local - 'think global, act local' etc.

Interesting advice and a principle I apply to myself, but as it happens the rest of the world largely doesn't. Across the US and Europe many play mostly Irish traditional music as the preferred tradition. Indeed in Germany and Austria it has almost totally displaced the indigenous music (which has been rejected because of its Nazi associations. Sad but true).

 

I know in England there is a good sized contingent of people obsessed with pipes and gurdies and French music. There are Swedish morris dancers and an English music session in Stockholm I've been meaning to get to for ages. We have a German friend who loves English music and spends as much time as she is able in England playing superb English fiddle in sessions. It would seem that, at least so far as the West is concerned, the traditional music you play is a matter of choice, not birth.

 

Chris