Breaking In New Concertina Reeds

[richard]

Hello

 

I'm curious what folks who had the experience of being the first owners of an instrument with concertina reeds experienced over time, as the reeds were "broken in", as far as evolution (change) in Tone, response, volume, and any other qualities that were perceived.

 

Can anyone explain the metallurgical events that happen within the reeds as they are affected by their own vibration, or the vibrations of other reeds? If that is really what is happening?

 

Thanks,

 

Richard

[Rod]

Hello

 

I'm curious what folks who had the experience of being the first owners of an instrument with concertina reeds experienced over time, as the reeds were "broken in", as far as evolution (change) in Tone, response, volume, and any other qualities that were perceived.

 

Can anyone explain the metallurgical events that happen within the reeds as they are affected by their own vibration, or the vibrations of other reeds? If that is really what is happening?

 

Thanks,

 

Richard

 

Richard. I can offer no scientific explanation for this phenomenon but I have no doubt that there are those who perhaps can. My 36 button Anglo was purchased thirty years ago from new and without doubt the tonal quality improved with playing...or so it certainly seemed. The reeds became more responsive and 'sweeter' and benefitted significantly from the gentle exercise I began to give them.

 

I can only believe that regular vibration of the new reeds rendered them more flexible and responsive and that the consequent greater freedom of movement to vibrate contributed to the sweeter tone and easier action. I have a feeling that it was a gradual process, over a considerable period of time. Whatever the physical process it has never had any detremental effect whatsoever on the original tuning. I have never had reason to believe that if the instrument were to be laid aside for an extended period the reeds would revert to their original state, but if they were permitted to corrode in any way I expect that it would be another story.

 

I reckon reeds may be in some mysterious way akin to muscles of the body which benefit from some gentle regular exercise, except that my muscles (at my time of life) then stiffen up again if I then put my feet up for too long! I need reeds! I am now getting into the realms of 'waffle' and I'm quite sure that there are plenty of people out there who will understand this subject far,far better than I do, so I shall shut up.

[david_boveri]

it is hard to tell. it is fairly certain that they change tone over time, but the question is why.

 

the only way to tell would be to buy two, new concertinas: play one, and keep one in the case. after several years, take the other one out of its case and see if it plays like a new concertina or like on that has been broken in. also, audio recordings and spectral analyses done before and after would help.

 

i have heard that violins break in over time, and that if you leave a new violin to settle for the same amount of time as a new one was broken in, the tone changes the same.

[David Levine]

it is hard to tell. it is fairly certain that they change tone over time, but the question is why.

 

the only way to tell would be to buy two, new concertinas: play one, and keep one in the case. after several years, take the other one out of its case and see if it plays like a new concertina or like on that has been broken in. also, audio recordings and spectral analyses done before and after would help.

 

i have heard that violins break in over time, and that if you leave a new violin to settle for the same amount of time as a new one was broken in, the tone changes the same.

 

I recently bought one of Dana Johnson's Kensington concertinas, which I like very much. I noticed the change most in the smaller reeds- particularly in the inner row G-A-B. They were fairly strident at first but have now become less so, with no apparent loss of volume, though the latter could just be my perception.

Is this only noticeable with the crisper sounding real concertina reeds or is it true as well of accordion-reeded concertinas?

[d.elliott]

Hello

 

I'm curious what folks who had the experience of being the first owners of an instrument with concertina reeds experienced over time, as the reeds were "broken in", as far as evolution (change) in Tone, response, volume, and any other qualities that were perceived.

 

Can anyone explain the metallurgical events that happen within the reeds as they are affected by their own vibration, or the vibrations of other reeds? If that is really what is happening?

 

Thanks,

 

Richard

 

I have no personally derived empirical data to substantiate what I am about to offer, however the following are all based on scientific known phenomina, and may help you form your own conclusions.

 

There is the reed, and the wood in the instrument.

 

Taking the wood, I bought a baritone and found that the valves had all been replaced with strips of thin rubber. The rubber acted as dampers on the reedpan muting and flattening the whole tambre of the instrument. clearly the reedpan acts as a sound board, and as it settles and dries it will probably affect the resonance of the instrument.

 

 

Reeds have tongues and frames/ clamps. I don't see the frame changing but the reed tongue will.

 

Many of us know that the reed tongue metal is stressed, this can be seen as we file the tongue to tune it. The reed deflects as the stress balance is changed by metal removal. We also know that the reed gap is crucial to the speaking and responsiveness of the reed. So now please be aware that there is a phenominon called vibration stress relief, this uses the vibration of the chrystal structure to 'shake out' and even stresses in the metal. This technique is actually used to de-stress and control the performance of the main gun on the Abrahams MBT. (Yes guns are also tuned as well!).

 

Any way; with play the vibration in the reeds will tend to stress relieve, and those stresses trying to hold the reed away from the optimum gapping will suffer the changes the most. Thus tending, in time, to balance the reed in a position of best deflection and performance.

 

In addition, brass reeds will suffer age hardening, steel reeds will harden slightly in the belly of the reed tongue under the influence of repeated deflection, both of which will have some effect. The harder the reed tongue, the brighter the tone.

 

 

Hope that this gives food for thought

 

Dave

[Anglo-Irishman]

Can anyone explain the metallurgical events that happen within the reeds as they are affected by their own vibration, or the vibrations of other reeds? If that is really what is happening?

 

Richard,

There may be metallurgical events taking place, but remember that the sound is not produced by the concertina (or any other musical instrument) but by the system of instrument and player.

A new instrument is unfamiliar to its player - he or she doesn't know its strengths and weaknesses. The break-in period will see the player - perhaps unconsciously - adapting the playing technique almost imperceptibly to optimise the sound that comes out of the player-instrument system.

 

Just a thought!

 

Cheers,

John

[stella24]

I wouldn't tend to agree with this last post entirely, more so with Mr. Elliot. My first tuning was on a high quality anglo lachenal. The low A reeds i took too much out of the belly to bring them to A440 and they would go flat if played hard. Now 4 to 5 years later, they do not go flat! This instrument had not in appearance been played much before i aquired it, and is over 100 years old. It is possible that the steel reeds have hardened from the stresses of vibration, and overall it does sound 'sweeter' which could in part be due to better bellow technique. w.

[Anglo-Irishman]

The low A reeds i took too much out of the belly to bring them to A440 and they would go flat if played hard. Now 4 to 5 years later, they do not go flat!

 

Hm!

That could mean that, after 4 to 5 years of familiarisation with this particular instrument, you're not playing those reeds as hard as you did at first. You may be doing it instinctively, and not notice that you're doing it.

 

My other "push-button" instrument is the autoharp, of which I have two that are very similar in setup. On one of them, the chord bar closest to the end of the strings needs a bit of extra pressure to damp the strings properly. At first, this was an annoyance - now, I just automatically press that bar harder when I'm playing that particular 'harp.

 

Cheers,

John

[richard]

Hello

 

I understand that the sound that comes out of the the instrument depends on how it is played, and that we adjust to how we play overtime.

 

But I understand many people with much experience think there is change to the reeds that go from "virginal" and new, to "broken-in". I have been told that to play reeds too hard during that time will damage them and affect their tone and longevity. This is what I am curious about.

 

Richard

[Dana Johnson]

Hello

 

I understand that the sound that comes out of the the instrument depends on how it is played, and that we adjust to how we play overtime.

 

But I understand many people with much experience think there is change to the reeds that go from "virginal" and new, to "broken-in". I have been told that to play reeds too hard during that time will damage them and affect their tone and longevity. This is what I am curious about.

 

Richard

When I finish a concertina, I spend a lot of time playing it to make sure there are no defects I can perceive and to limber up the bellows a bit. I usually notice a slight change in tone towards less harshness during this process, effecting the most played reeds more than lesser played ones. Any suggestion I have regarding how this happens is total speculation so I won't go into it. However since I offer touch up tuning of my instruments after a year of playing, I've had the opportunity to hear how they have changed over that length of time, and since I pick them up fresh, I don't have the time to adjust to them to break myself in so to speak. Invariably I find they are all "sweeter" and less harsh in tone. I often have new and older instruments to compare. My instruments are remarkably similar in tone now, with much less variation than I have noticed in other makers instruments. There are differences between them, but you have to listen to them very carefully together to hear the differences. The difference I hear to one that has been well played for a year or more is quite easy to distinguish from a new one, so I would be inclined to discount the player getting used to their instrument as being the result of better tone quality though any player worth their salt will pay attention to how their playing influences the music.

Dana

[Robert Booth]

A little over a year ago I bought a brand-new Standard from Bob Tedrow. In that time, the tone of the most frequently played reeds has perceptably mellowed and sweetened. It is possible to tell which reeds I use most, and which don't get used as much just from listening. I cannot attribute this to my fingering or attack. The changes are due to the amount of use, period.

 

Just what happens to those reeds I dare not guess, but use is the agent of the change. The above mentioned experiment would, I predict, show the unused instrument considerably "harder" in tone than the used one.

 

Perhaps it's like an old dog that used to growl and snap, but through love and gentle handling has become a trusted family member?

 

Rob

[m3838]

In that time, the tone of the most frequently played reeds has perceptably mellowed and sweetened.

 

Which means playing scales in all keys encompassing all the reeds may have a point, after all.

Or rather making a habit of playing chromatic scale up and down a few times, varying the volume.

[michael sam wild]

It may be that reeds and people become as one by lots of playing The way that men and bicycles became fused in Flann o'Brian's 'The Third Policeman'

The molecules get mixed so the reeds become intelligent.

[JimLucas]

The molecules get mixed so the reeds become intelligent.

However, this article in the Science section of the New York Times cites research which suggests that "Smarter Isn’t Better".

[Rod]

The molecules get mixed so the reeds become intelligent.

However, this article in the Science section of the New York Times cites research which suggests that "Smarter Isn’t Better".

 

Isn't it time a qualified metallurgist put our troubled minds to rest?

Perhaps it is no more than a mysterious cocktail of maturing timber, leather and metal which should be allowed to remain a mystery. You can't beat a good mystery!

[richard]

Hello

 

If it matters....I didn't raise the question to know why.

 

I want to know what changes could, might or do occur as reeds "Break-in", according to people's experience. What improves?

 

Richard

[toshea]

Hello

 

If it matters....I didn't raise the question to know why.

 

I want to know what changes could, might or do occur as reeds "Break-in", according to people's experience. What improves?

 

Richard

 

 

The answer is that the sound of a reed changes over time because the metal actually ages and becomes a very tiny bit more brittle and stiff.

 

Likewise it is well known that auto sheet metal ages after only a period of over 5 years and has less strength and becomes more brittle. Autos in accidents in later years sustain more damage, studies have shown.

 

As the reed becomes more brittle and stiff the vibration characteristics change.

 

Which is one possible reason why vintage instruments all have that "sound" and the new "hybred" instruments "may" sound different in the future.

[Anglo-Irishman]

Perhaps it is no more than a mysterious cocktail of maturing timber, leather and metal which should be allowed to remain a mystery. You can't beat a good mystery!

 

 

Rod,

You've got a good point there!

 

The mystique of improving an instrument by playing it frequently in as many different keys as possible is rife among the fretted-string players, too. There, it has nothing to do with metallurgy, of course - but the messge is the same.

 

This superstitious fear that our beloved instrument may somehow fail to realise its full potential if we don't pay enough attention to it helps to motivate us to practise regularly - and this, I maintain, makes the player/instrument system better overall.

 

However, like most superstitions, this one probably has a technological or scientific basis, but one which our simple, mono-causal minds cannot grasp. As soon as the affair is demystified, we start looking for technological back doors. Take the example of the guitar ...

 

Someone explained the improvement of the guitar through frequent playing by the fact that the vibrations in the wood help to get the moisture and sap out of the grain, making the wood lighter, more responsive. Each part of the top vibrates at different frequencies, so to mature your guitar completely, you had to play in all keys.

 

The result of this "demystification" was that some people placed new guitars in front of a turned-up loudspeaker for hours, or even days, on end. I've even seen a "guitar maturing system" on this basis offered commercially!

This procedure may (or may not) actually improve the guitar - but it doesn't improve the guitarist. So the music doesn't get any better.

 

No, scientific enlightenment does not always lead to moral improvement!

Mystically,

John