What About A G/d Hybrid Bass Anglo?

[Jim Besser]

I have contacted one of our esteemed builders about such a beast -- a bass, one octave below a normal G/D-- and am wondering if people have thoughts about the practicality of such an instrument with accordion reeds.

 

What are the problems in creating such a low instrument?

 

Would it be harder to get good sound and responsiveness from accordion reeds than from traditional concertina reeds in an instrument pitched this low?

 

 

Obviously, this would not be a primary instrument, but I think it would be great fun at dances to play the part of a tuba or string bass with a concertina. I can also foresee using it when my Morris group has multiple musicians, allowing me to play around with bass lines.

 

Ideas? Warnings? A splash of cold water to my soaring hopes?

Edited December 28, 2007 by Jim Besser

[Chris Timson]

I want one for precisely the same reasons. The issue is primarily one of reed size, that is, fitting them in the space available. Even concertina reeded G/D basses tend to be big beasts. I've sent you a pm about where things stand with me on this.

 

Chris

[Marien]

Not only would an octave lower G/D become very large, because it needs space for very long low reeds, but also, I guess that the low accordion reeds needed for a G/D bariton hybrid are not readily available. The lowest note applied in accordeons bas voices is the F (just one full note below the lowest G in a normal G/D concertina). A bariton G/D would need about 9 lower reeds. I heard that it is quite difficult to produce a fast responding reed of a note lower than this low F, so it may be quite a quest to make a hybrid with notes that low.

[JimLucas]

Not only would an octave lower G/D become very large, because it needs space for very long low reeds, but also, I guess that the low accordion reeds needed for a G/D bariton hybrid are not readily available. The lowest note applied in accordeons bas voices is the F (just one full note below the lowest G in a normal G/D concertina).

They don't make fancy accordions with an octave-lower stop on the bass end?

 

As for length, yes, they would be long, but concertina reeds that low in pitch commonly also have weighted tips. My semi-contra-bass (for want of a better name) goes down to that low G. Its lowest reeds are both long and weighted. I'm sure the same could be done with accordion reeds, either by the reed maker or by the concertina maker. Whether weighting is a reasonable way to drop the pitch by a full octave, I just don't know.

[Tootler]

Some thoughts:

 

I play contrabass recorder. Although it has a two octave range, most of the time I am playing in the first octave and the times I go above A' (lowest note F) ie above an octave and a third are rare.

 

On this basis, a bass concertina would not necessarily need the range of a normal treble instrument. A two octave range or even an octave and a fifth may be sufficient. Also is it possible to manage without the accidental row - or with only limited accidentals? Reducing the number of reeds should give room for larger reeds. Is this a worthwhile compromise?

 

Secondly, bass instruments in general are slower speaking than their treble cousins and you have to learn to accommodate that. After a time you learn a knack of slightly anticipating your entry to give the instrument time to speak. In general bass lines move more slowly than the upper parts, so the slower response while not ideal, is something that can be accommodated.

 

It all depends on how you anticipate using your instrument and what compromises you are prepared to accept.

 

Geoff

[Jim Besser]

It all depends on how you anticipate using your instrument and what compromises you are prepared to accept.

 

Good points.

I would think, based on other discussions, that 26 keys would work admirably.

 

I don't anticipate playing much melody; I want to use it as a bass, so the slower response would not be a real impediment, as long as it wasn't TOO slow. I also wouldn't mind a little larger than other instruments. Sound's the main thing; I want something with a real growl and good volume.

 

And I can't afford a Dipper.

[JimLucas]

And I can't afford a Dipper.

Not even a little Dipper?

That hardly bears thinking about.

[Marien]

They don't make fancy accordions with an octave-lower stop on the bass end?

 

I doubt that the lower reeds are standard in reed industry. But I admit you are right, they make them, especially on the stayerische (so that makes diatonic reeds) , but I think you won't fond them on cheap models, and I think that the hybrid question was about wanting a cheaper instrument on the side.

 

As for the weighted tips, I have a cheap DDR concertina (G/D, not a bass model) with this kind of reeds with lead or brass weights glued on its end. When playing them it takes time before you will here the proper low G. I have another (lachenal) concertina with a changed pitch and the lowest reed with added lead block has the same `pause` problem. Also, the low G uses a lot of air.

 

In an accordion this may work better as you can pull lots of air through it, but I think in a concertina you would need a far more fast responding reed.

 

In a hand made instrument, designed to be that way, it can be arranged. Like in yours, a little weight may be added to avoid having to build a bigger model. If the reed still is long enough that works out okay in your case, but I guess that it is not a cheap hybrid?

[oggie]

I have reeds in that range on my bandoneon.

 

Couple of thoughts. They take longer to sound fully than the treble reeds but are great for chord work and song accompaniment. Playing left hand melody for jigs and reels is a no-no although airs and morris are possible.

 

On the bandoneon the are arranged on beds pointing into the centre of the instrument which give enough room for them (like on the old GDR anglos). There's no way they'd fit on a flat reed bed in any quantity.

 

All the best

 

Steve

[Dave Weinstein]

This path was how I ended up with my current design.

 

Around 4.5 years ago, I was talking to Bob Tedrow about doing exactly what you described, a 26 button G/D Bass. He did some tests then, and as I recall his determination (and he's built many instruments since then, so things may have changed) was that it would be as big as a hubcap and still might be slow to sound.

 

I recalled that Bob played an unusual D/A, where the A was a 4th below the D, rather than a 5th above. And starting from there, I ended up with what I've been calling a "Drop D" G/D Baritone, since the D is dropped an octave, and the whole instrument is in the same range as a C/G baritone.

[Chris Timson]

Around 4.5 years ago, I was talking to Bob Tedrow about doing exactly what you described, a 26 button G/D Bass. He did some tests then, and as I recall his determination (and he's built many instruments since then, so things may have changed) was that it would be as big as a hubcap and still might be slow to sound.

Yes, it would never be a speedy instrument, but there are a number of occasions I could use such a beast.

 

I ended up with what I've been calling a "Drop D" G/D Baritone, since the D is dropped an octave, and the whole instrument is in the same range as a C/G baritone.

Hmm. At the risk of starting a side-thread, that sounds to me like a ready-made for an English D/G melodeon player. The cross row fingering would be unchanged, a bit like my Anglodeon only in the opposite direction.

 

Chris

[Robin Harrison]

Hi Jim............it's my understanding that Colin Dipper/Robin Scard made a series of 5 bass concertinas this year that were made with accordion reeds...................

I also think that if view such an anglo not as a lead melody instrument but use it for bass runs etc,it would be incredible in a session.I could also envision playing these runs in octaves .

Robin

[Jim Besser]

Hi Jim............it's my understanding that Colin Dipper/Robin Scard made a series of 5 bass concertinas this year that were made with accordion reeds...................

I also think that if view such an anglo not as a lead melody instrument but use it for bass runs etc,it would be incredible in a session.I could also envision playing these runs in octaves .

 

That's very interesting. Wonder what he charges?