m3838 Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 I think youtube has plenty evidence that many of concertinas played tdday are not only 20 buttons, but inferiorly made chinese ones. So the legacy lives! You buy one, play one, toss one, buy another. I find those examples of 20 button "Hohners" on Youtube to be more enjoyable to watch/listen to, than most more or less established 30+button players. Fresher? Less into someone else's style? More rhythmic? The sound is more appealing? Don't know. Given the wide offering and low price I think the sales of cheap 20 buttons far exceed sales of more expencive instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Levine Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 "I find those examples of 20 button "Hohners" on Youtube to be more enjoyable than most more or less established 30+button players." This says more about the listener than about the "established 30+button players." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m3838 Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 "I find those examples of 20 button "Hohners" on Youtube to be more enjoyable than most more or less established 30+button players." This says more about the listener than about the "established 30+button players." Yes, of course. But what I meant is that 20 button players intuitively pick up the "authentic" style. I don't even remember if I ever saw single line Irish tune out of 20 button Hohner. While here on C.net we engaged in raging battles over whether Irish music allows harmony, people outside just picked those cute 20 button instruments and went on playing whatever seemed appropriate. Just like the old guys! There is something very interesting coming out of this simple 20 button with "accordion" reeds. I think it should be stressed again, that one can happily spend a lifetime playing wonderful music without extra accidentals. If I were into Irish, I'd certainly did as Hooves suggested: just tune those G row Cs half tone up and forget about trouble. It woould prompt me to think simply, which, I think, is good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Levine Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 (edited) I'm selling a twenty button, two-row Wheatstone Linota. It's mid-thirties, with a traditional slotted reed-pan, brass reed frames and steel reeds. It has metal ends and the serial number 34154. It's the only two-row Linota I've ever seen. Mark Davies played it and pronounced it the best two-row he's ever played. You can see him playing it on Youtube. The clip ends just as he is saying "This is the best two-row..." It has new bellows and pads, is in perfect tune, and sounds just like a Linota, which is very good. Please email me for the price and for more pictures. Feel free as well to make an offer. It will be many times less expensive than a comparable 30 Button. There is plenty of room inside for additional reeds and levers. Here's your chance to beat the EBay frenzy.... Edited October 13, 2008 by David Levine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglo-Irishman Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 One of these days I'm going to write up a tune in D which never hits C# or F#. Pentatonic anybody? Dorian? That would be dorian mode. Plenty of them around already! I play 'em along the C row. Cheers, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingToe Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 I think it is a shame that Frank is no longer making the 24 button instruments; does anyone know if Harold Herrington is still making them? Yes, for $1,250 as of '08. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter Laban Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Just a thought: didn't Paddy Murphy get a 24 button instrument at Crowley's in Cork for a tenner, borrowed from the parish priest to set up the Fiach Rua Ceiliband? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglo-Irishman Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Yes, of course. But what I meant is that 20 button players intuitively pick up the "authentic" style. I don't even remember if I ever saw single line Irish tune out of 20 button Hohner. While here on C.net we engaged in raging battles over whether Irish music allows harmony, people outside just picked those cute 20 button instruments and went on playing whatever seemed appropriate. Just like the old guys!There is something very interesting coming out of this simple 20 button with "accordion" reeds. I think it should be stressed again, that one can happily spend a lifetime playing wonderful music without extra accidentals. Good point, Misha! The Anglo is not an ITM instrument per se. In fact, it's not even Irish. It's Anglo-German. ITM is only one of many musics that the Anglo can be used for - English Morris, South African Boerenmuziek or Salvation Army songs, for instance. I personally started out on a 20-button playing sea shanties and hymns. These are to me all "authentic" Anglo music, because they utilise the inherent advantage of the German-style layout - the simplification of harmony playing by using the bellows direction to eliminate the "wrong" notes, and modulating by changing rows. When you get your hands on a 20-button Anglo for the first time, this is what comes out. Of course the Anglo-Chromatic has all the semitones - but this doesn't make C# major viable, except from a purely melodic point of view. The accidentals/alternate fingerings row really only enhances the 20-button layout: it makes a few things possible, but it makes more things better and a lot of things easier. The 30-b C/G Anglo is still a C/G instrument, but a more versatile one than the 20-b. Part of its versatility is the capability to play melodically in a few keys close to C and G. But the farther you get from C and G, the more you lose the inherent advantage of full harmonisation. With the 20-b Anglo, you aren't tempted to stray from the home keys - so the music remains "authentic". The reason for my recent addition of a duet to my stable was not that I couldn't play satisfactory music on my 30-b Anglo, but rather that, the more sophisticated my Anglo arrangements became, the more I was tied to the home keys. And I wanted to be able to play with some tonal variety. Hohner 20-b's are all very well, but I must say, if someone gave me the money for a moderately-priced concertina, I'd go for a vintage Lachenal with 20 buttons. I'd have a lot of fun in my two keys, and make a lot of real Anglo music, and to Hell with D major (... and to Connaught with ITM ) Cheers, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill_mchale Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 John, I am not sure what you mean by the Anglo not being an ITM instrument... I am sure there are more than a few players around who would dispute that . I think it is ultimately a question of definition. Very few of the instruments used in ITM are unique to it (Perhaps the bodhran and the half-step tuned accordions being the most clearly unique to ITM). Further the anglo has been used for more than a century now (I am pretty sure Chris Droney claimed that his grandfather played concertina) for ITM. And its very distinctive of Clare music. -- Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catty Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 (edited) Concurring with m3838 and A-I on this point: When I first got hold of a 20b Hohner, I was involved at the time in performing folk songs. I immediately commenced to learn all the standard early Americana repertoire I could work out from memory -- probably have a list of ~30 or 40. Then I set about learning some fiddle tunes, which prompted me to obtain a 30b. The 20b makes a very nice vocal accompaniment instrument for Stephen Foster tunes and the like.. Personally, when the tune requires much cross-rowing, I start opting to work the tune out on English. Edited October 13, 2008 by catty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastian Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 (edited) I am not sure what you mean by the Anglo not being an ITM instrument... The Anglo is not exclusively an ITM instrument. It is used for other music, too. Sebastian Edited October 14, 2008 by Sebastian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Levine Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 This very good question, asked in the first post, hasn't been addressed in this long thread. I'm not sure what the Noel Hill fingering is exactly, but it seems to me that only 10 buttons are required : 6 on the left, 4 on the right ("initiated" persons will confirm or correct). So if such a great player uses so few buttons, and so many persons follow his method, why not propose a "minimum" instrument with only those buttons? Noel teaches that the ten buttons are only first choices. They won't work for every tune but will be a good starting point. There is a flow you get by playing across the rows. It makes sense to play this way. Other fingerings are second and third choices that you will make to avoid "chopping" and to phrase properly. These choices have to be made all the time. But the basic "system" remains very simple and straight-forward. It describes a "Z." After a while it becomes intuitive and you begin to sense when a tune requires that you leave the system. People who have taken lessons or classes from Noel don't take what he says as the word of God. He isn't always there to advise, in any case. I make use of almost all of the 30 buttons on my concertina and discover a use for the rest as I continue learning to play the instrument. There are the Paddy Fahey tunes with Bb, that require using the A push on the top row to avoid chopping, and tunes like The Broken Pledge, with Fn. And the pesky low notes, those below low D, for tunes like The Humors of Lissadel and Lads Unleashed. I agree with Anglo-Irishman John, who said Hohner 20-b's are all very well, but I must say, if someone gave me the money for a moderately-priced concertina, I'd go for a vintage Lachenal with 20 buttons. I'd have a lot of fun in my two keys, and make a lot of real Anglo music… In fact, you can play tunes in the key of D on a 20B, but it's tricky enough to sense the adjustments that would have to be made to work around the missing C#. Finally, here's a clip of Noel playing an Anglo concertina with about ten buttons: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglo-Irishman Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 I am not sure what you mean by the Anglo not being an ITM instrument... The Anglo is not exclusively an ITM instrument. It is used for other music, too. Sebastian Precisely! Also, historically speaking, the Anglo was widely popular before it came to be used for Irish dance music. It didn't emerge from the Irish tradition, and it hasn't undergone any specifically Irish developments. It's still an English-type concertina with a German button layout that was enhanced by an Englishman. In this way it's parallel to the violin and the transverse flute. These are also mainstays of Irish dance music, but their musical character is not defined via ITM. They, too, were adopted. Now, if Irish makers had put as much development effort into the Anglo-German concertina as the Americans have into the German-invented autoharp, the picture would be different. The American OTM and folk traditions do define the mainstream of autoharp music, using capabilities that were developed in the US, while the autoharp fell into disuse back home in Europe. But as it is, ITM must be regarded as just another role for the Anglo. Cheers, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malcolm clapp Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 (edited) ... the half-step tuned accordions being the most clearly unique to ITM ... Bill I think some Scottish TM players might have a case to argue that one with you, Bill But perhaps in another forum.... Edited October 14, 2008 by malcolm clapp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azalin Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 I tried to figure out what could be the "minimum" instrument for Irish playing.I'm not sure what the Noel Hill fingering is exactly, but it seems to me that only 10 buttons are required : 6 on the left, 4 on the right ("initiated" persons will confirm or correct). Could someone tell me what those buttons are? I am guessing on the right, the F#/G and A/B on the G row, the B/C on the C row and the C# button, and the first few buttons (starting from index finger) on the C and G row on the left side... but I'd be curious to know what they exactly are. (I understand completely they are only 'default' buttons and other buttons can be used) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael sam wild Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 I agree about having the extra notes as you progress and for tricky tunes. I got a Jones which is fully chromatic but my every day instrument is a 26 button and I love it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhomylly Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Wow. So no more 24-button Edgleys with metal ends. My Edgley is now a rarity! Cool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael sam wild Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Just a thought: didn't Paddy Murphy get a 24 button instrument at Crowley's in Cork for a tenner, borrowed from the parish priest to set up the Fiach Rua Ceiliband? Yes! A point I've made elsewhere about Paddy Murphy on this site Peter. I think the old push/pull style has a lot of life in it yet and we'll see a comeback. Just as press and draw melodeon/button accordion after the B/C boom! The Anglo's only an 'owd mouthorgan' split in two isn't it! I loved that 12 steps item on the session about obsessive 'ITM' players 'rolling it'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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