Happy Fourth Of July!

[JimLucas]

Happy Fourth of July!

Americans have something to celebrate, in that there is a United States of America. I like to think that the rest of the world does, too.

 

I'm not proud of everything that America has ever done, but I am certainly proud of some things that my ancestors have done along the way. Like our Constitution, crafted by many of the same people who had a hand in our Declaration of Independence, and who understood the difference between the two. But I should save saying more about that for the anniversary of the Constitution itself.

 

Today is known in America as "Independence Day", but I think it's unique among the "independence" days celebrated around the world. We're not celebrating the day we achieved our independence, but the day we demanded it.

 

Like the recent recognition of the start of The Battle of The Somme -- which I have now learned lasted 4 months and killed more British soldiers than all the Americans who died in Viet Nam, -- what this date marks is the beginning of a long and difficult struggle.

 

Americans celebrate July 4th with fireworks. I'm not sure why. Denmark -- and I think other countries -- uses fireworks to celebrate the beginning of the New Year. I like to think there's a connection there, though I'm not sure how many others think of it that way. I personally like the colored fireworks and would be happy to do without the noisy ones. I like the idea that even explosives can be turned to purposes of enjoyment, rather than warfare.

 

In any case, I think this is a day to celebrate, because it marks the beginning of more than two centuries of great accomplishments. (And some not so great, but we have 364 other days to consider those before the next July 4th.) Our struggles are far from finished, but we did gain our independence, our freedom, with a government founded on the principle, as The Declaration says, "that all Men are created equal, ... with certain unalienable Rights, ... [and] That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed...."

 

We still have that independence, that freedom, and that basis for government. I think that's something to celebrate! And I hope that anyone else who values those things for themselves will join us in celebration.

 

P.S. Anyone wishing to discuss current politics, feel free to send me an email or PM, but please don't do it here on-Forum.

[Toireasa Breathnach]

Happy Fourth of July!

Americans have something to celebrate, in that there is a United States of America. I like to think that the rest of the world does, too.

 

I'm not proud of everything that America has ever done, but I am certainly proud of some things that my ancestors have done along the way. Like our Constitution, crafted by many of the same people who had a hand in our Declaration of Independence, and who understood the difference between the two. But I should save saying more about that for the anniversary of the Constitution itself.

 

Today is known in America as "Independence Day", but I think it's unique among the "independence" days celebrated around the world. We're not celebrating the day we achieved our independence, but the day we demanded it.

 

Like the recent recognition of the start of The Battle of The Somme -- which I have now learned lasted 4 months and killed more British soldiers than all the Americans who died in Viet Nam, -- what this date marks is the beginning of a long and difficult struggle.

 

Americans celebrate July 4th with fireworks. I'm not sure why. Denmark -- and I think other countries -- uses fireworks to celebrate the beginning of the New Year. I like to think there's a connection there, though I'm not sure how many others think of it that way. I personally like the colored fireworks and would be happy to do without the noisy ones. I like the idea that even explosives can be turned to purposes of enjoyment, rather than warfare.

 

In any case, I think this is a day to celebrate, because it marks the beginning of more than two centuries of great accomplishments. (And some not so great, but we have 364 other days to consider those before the next July 4th.) Our struggles are far from finished, but we did gain our independence, our freedom, with a government founded on the principle, as The Declaration says, "that all Men are created equal, ... with certain unalienable Rights, ... [and] That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed...."

 

We still have that independence, that freedom, and that basis for government. I think that's something to celebrate! And I hope that anyone else who values those things for themselves will join us in celebration.

 

P.S. Anyone wishing to discuss current politics, feel free to send me an email or PM, but please don't do it here on-Forum.

God Bless you ,Jim.

[m3838]

Many Happy Returns of the Day!!!

P.S.

I wish Americans would learn how to do fireworks by now. Where's spinning wheels, spiraling rockets?

I'd propose to install a special tax, called "Firework Tax", so we wouldn't save on them. Let's fill the sky with lights. Those who would collect the cartriges and bring them to the collecting point, would be exempt from the Tax.

[JimLucas]

I wish Americans would learn how to do fireworks by now.

That's something I might be willing to discuss off-Forum.

[Chris Allert]

Normally i would not make a political comment in this forum, but given the current state of the world, and given the fact that most people in the world, including many americans such as myself see the united states as the greatest threat to world security today, i cannot let this thread go unanswered without publicly registereing my dissent.

 

starting a thread recognizing the fourth of july that has nothing to do with concertinas is a political statement, whether or not it was meant as one. i removed the united states from the location field in my signature a while ago in protest against what the united states is currently doing and the apathy of most of its citizens, so perhaps it is not my place to judge the person who started this thread.

 

there are many good things about american culture which should be celebrated. perhaps nothing is more important to me than the ideals of liberty, equality, and secularism. i don't think these ideals are unique to america, and there are certainly other states that promote them better than the usa currently does. but all the same i celebrate these ideals and believe their realization is the right and duty of all people.

 

but we now have a situation where the executive, president bush, has admitted to committing and authorizing war crimes by launching a war of agression and torture (rendition, physical pressure, torture by any other name...), and a supreme court that a few days ago, admitted as much by refusing him the authority to deny his "enemy combatant" captives their due process under federal and international law, and by affirming that he is still bound by the geneva conventions, whatever he may believe to the contrary. so this independence day, we americans have little to be proud of and much to answer for. and for this reason, as i said, i cannot let a public statement about our patriotic holiday go unanswered. if the moderator if this forum would delete my post, i understand, but i would also ask that you delete this entire thread, as deleting just this dissenting statement is also a political act.

 

by the way, i'm not implying that any of the posters in this thread approve of the evils i have outlined, so i hope that they won't take offense or see this reply as a personal attack.

 

----

 

additional editorial (posted 19.38 north american west coast time):

 

re-reading the post that started this thread, it seems jim may have been trying to reclaim a holiday that the right uses to justify war. this wasn't clear to me when i posted, and still isn't completely clear to me (or to others it seems.) since others may take it as a celebration of the united states current policies, i still feel it necessary to leave my message in place. if there is going to be a fourth of july thread, i at least want to be counted among those who object to what my country is currently doing.

Edited July 5, 2006 by Chris Allert

[jlfinkels]

Many Happy Returns of the Day!!!

P.S.

I wish Americans would learn how to do fireworks by now. Where's spinning wheels, spiraling rockets?

I'd propose to install a special tax, called "Firework Tax", so we wouldn't save on them. Let's fill the sky with lights. Those who would collect the cartriges and bring them to the collecting point, would be exempt from the Tax.

 

Some actually do know how. Not where I live though. Here's my favorite fireworks story...

 

In our area of Atlanta folks like to set off fireworks in common areas of their neighborhood. Many years back when our kids were little, some parents were setting them off to the amusement of their children. We were there with our kids just observing. They had this one big rocket-like firework that they stuck into the ground and lit. Before it took off it fell over and shot across the street at the house of the fellow who lit it. It broke through the front window and proceeded to bounce around downstairs and explode in the living room. While all this was going on you could hear his wife screaming and could follow her shadow as she ran around downstairs trying to avoid the rocket. Thankfully, she was not hurt in the least, just shaken up. The same could not be said for their living room and dining room.

 

The family sitting next to us were originally from the UK, and the father summed it up in one sentence. "Brilliantly done, mate."

[greenferry]

"... our independence, our freedom, with a government founded on the principle, as The Declaration says, "that all Men are created equal, ... with certain unalienable Rights, ... [and] That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed...."

Jim,

 

I'm glad you posted this. I love the Fourth of July, fireworks, the Flag, corn on the cob, barbecued chicken, and apple pie with vanilla ice cream.

 

Americans have more freedom than anyplace else in the whole world (except maybe Canada), and even though it's not perfect, it's a Good Deal.

 

I empathize with the young folks who have tried to get a life by offering to sacrifice their lives for the powers that be, but I do not support the War in Iraq. According to this week's news headlines, many of the young men and women who have fought for our country are currently *homeless,* and their hopes for getting a life are blasted. Instead, they got post-traumatic stress syndrome, depression, and homelessness.

 

I feel very uneasy about the polarization of ordinary Americans into Red and Blue, and most people just following the status quo no matter how they feel, and not taking any action, and not voting, and not discussing things, and not taking advantage of our freedoms because they live in fear of speaking out.

 

I feel even more uneasy about the appalling heights to which gross social inequalities have soared. Slavery was abolished 150 years ago, but new slaves are created every day by a national credit card debt on average of $18,000 for each adult American. And black people are still grossly discriminated against, along with Asian-Americans, Mexican-Americans, Native Americans, the elderly, the disabled, the poor, and the fat.

 

Finally, all Men may be created Equal, but to this day, the Equal Rights Amendment has not been passed, after decades of women struggling to achieve equality of treatment. Women are still paid 2/3 of what men are paid, with the same credentials, and for the same types of jobs, on average. Women are still underrepresented in Education, Medicine, Science and Government. Women with Ph.D.s get hired, but do not receive tenure as often as men. At least one in 3 to 5 women has been attacked or raped by a man (depending on the source). One in three 911 calls concerns domestic violence, of which women are the most frequent victims.

 

Got me on a roll there.

 

The GOOD[/i] thing is that women can play concertinas if they damn well want to, and that's one area that seems to be highly egalitarian.

 

(See? we're back to concertinas again!)

 

[John Wild]

I still go to a bonfire/fireworks party on 5th November, whichever day of the week it falls on. For those who have not learned that particular history lesson, it remembers the day Guido (Guy) Fawkes and others attempted to blow up the English parliament with barrels of gunpowder. The attempt failed. Maybe the fact that it is still celebrated means that lots of people wished it succeeded!!

 

- John Wild

[greenferry]

I still go to a bonfire/fireworks party on 5th November, whichever day of the week it falls on. For those who have not learned that particular history lesson, it remembers the day Guido (Guy) Fawkes and others attempted to blow up the English parliament with barrels of gunpowder. The attempt failed. Maybe the fact that it is still celebrated means that lots of people wished it succeeded!!

 

- John Wild

On the topic of fireworks, I remember the best ever fireworks I ever experienced were some years ago when I went with my sister to Central Park in Manhattan, and we managed to get all the way up to the very front. As the orchestra played the 1812 Overture and canons shot off, the fireworks debris came down right on top of us, and everybody scrambled. The ground shook like an earthquake from the cannons, and sparks were all over the ground.

 

After that, the next best fireworks I ever saw was in Edinburgh a couple years ago, where my son and I followed the Hogmanay procession with their thousands of torches (real two foot torches, not sparklers!) all through town, and the fur-clad Vikings dragged their longboat all the way out to a cliff and set it on fire. The fireworks started at the same time, and we had the boat going up in flames on one side, the fireworks directly overhead, and distracted adults and children with two foot torches packed so close together with sparks flying in every direction it seemed inevitable that somebody would get caught on fire.

 

I am looking forward to a Bonfire Night celebration in England sometime. I wonder what would be the most exciting venue?

 

I have also done the Esplanade on Fourth of July in Boston many times, but this year I will watch it on TV.

 

Edited to add: The Boston 2006 Fourth of July Fireworks on the Esplanade is being broadcast live, right now, on CBS-4 in Boston, and you can see the 2005 celebration videos at this location online (scroll down to Video Vault for 2005 videos). Yippee!!

 

Edited July 5, 2006 by greenferry

[Stephen Chambers]

I still go to a bonfire/fireworks party on 5th November, whichever day of the week it falls on. For those who have not learned that particular history lesson, it remembers the day Guido (Guy) Fawkes and others attempted to blow up the English parliament with barrels of gunpowder. The attempt failed. Maybe the fact that it is still celebrated means that lots of people wished it succeeded!!

 

In parts of Ireland they have bonfires and fireworks (even though the latter are illegal here ) on 31st October for Halloween. I wonder if an older (fire) custom might have got shifted to 5th November in England?

[Stephen Chambers]

I am looking forward to a Bonfire Night celebration in England sometime. I wonder what would be the most exciting venue?

Lewes!

[greenferry]

I am looking forward to a Bonfire Night celebration in England sometime. I wonder what would be the most exciting venue?

Lewes!

Oh wow! Can you describe it?

[greenferry]

The 1812 Overture is winding up for the cannons, right now!! And the fireworks are starting!!

 

This is so cool!!

 

[Stephen Chambers]

I am looking forward to a Bonfire Night celebration in England sometime. I wonder what would be the most exciting venue?

Lewes!

Oh wow! Can you describe it?

'Fraid not, it's something that I have long intended to go to but have not yet made it.

 

(A bit like the Chinese New Year in London's Chinatown, which I never got to when I was living in London for 15 years, but was coincidentally visiting a few years ago when it happened to be on, so I went along: Lots of fireworks, dancing dragons & drums! )

[Toireasa Breathnach]

I am looking forward to a Bonfire Night celebration in England sometime. I wonder what would be the most exciting venue?

Lewes!

Is Lewes not an anti Catholic celebration.

[Chris Timson]

Is Lewes not an anti Catholic celebration.

Undoubtedly - a couple of centuries back. Now, it's totally harmless.

 

Seems the Germans aren't too happy about this July 4th. My commiserations to them.

 

Chris

 

PS Chris Allert, for those of us outside the States, it's good to be reminded that not all Americans are behind the government 100% as it sometimes seems from our media. Thanks.

[Toireasa Breathnach]

Normally i would not make a political comment in this forum, but given the current state of the world, and given the fact that most people in the world, including many americans such as myself see the united states as the greatest threat to world security today, i cannot let this thread go unanswered without publicly registereing my dissent.

 

starting a thread recognizing the fourth of july that has nothing to do with concertinas is a political statement, whether or not it was meant as one. i removed the united states from the location field in my signature a while ago in protest against what the united states is currently doing and the apathy of most of its citizens, so perhaps it is not my place to judge the person who started this thread.

 

there are many good things about american culture which should be celebrated. perhaps nothing is more important to me than the ideals of liberty, equality, and secularism. i don't think these ideals are unique to america, and there are certainly other states that promote them better than the usa currently does. but all the same i celebrate these ideals and believe their realization is the right and duty of all people.

 

but we now have a situation where the executive, president bush, has admitted to committing and authorizing war crimes by launching a war of agression and torture (rendition, physical pressure, torture by any other name...), and a supreme court that a few days ago, admitted as much by refusing him the authority to deny his "enemy combatant" captives their due process under federal and international law, and by affirming that he is still bound by the geneva conventions, whatever he may believe to the contrary. so this independence day, we americans have little to be proud of and much to answer for. and for this reason, as i said, i cannot let a public statement about our patriotic holiday go unanswered. if the moderator if this forum would delete my post, i understand, but i would also ask that you delete this entire thread, as deleting just this dissenting statement is also a political act.

 

by the way, i'm not implying that any of the posters in this thread approve of the evils i have outlined, so i hope that they won't take offense or see this reply as a personal attack.

 

----

 

additional editorial (posted 19.38 north american west coast time):

 

re-reading the post that started this thread, it seems jim may have been trying to reclaim a holiday that the right uses to justify war. this wasn't clear to me when i posted, and still isn't completely clear to me (or to others it seems.) since others may take it as a celebration of the united states current policies, i still feel it necessary to leave my message in place. if there is going to be a fourth of july thread, i at least want to be counted among those who object to what my country is currently doing.

On further reflection ,Iagree with you, MrAllert, this thread should be removed. It s got nought to do with concertinas, either.

[Woody]

I am looking forward to a Bonfire Night celebration in England sometime. I wonder what would be the most exciting venue?

Lewes!

Is Lewes not an anti Catholic celebration.

 

The origins of Guy Fawkes night can be considered an anti-Catholic celebration. If you go back far enough in history you can probably find some group being oppressed in a large number of celebrations (4th July - celebration of oppression of those in the U.S. who wanted to remain British? ).

 

Guy Fawkes was part of a terrorist conspiricy to murder the King and Parliament and return England to Catholicism. The reaction of the (mainly Protestant) populace should be viewed in the context that rule by Catholics was equated with rule by a foreign power. Add to this the bloody supression of Protestantism under the reign of Mary I less than 50 years earlier and you can see the reasons why the majority of the populace were pleased the attempt failed (though less than 40 years later a lot of them would be trying to bring down the next King themselves!).

 

For many years it was common practice to burn effigies of the Pope and Guy Fawkes, and also of other unpopular persons of the day. The burning of the Pope has long since gone in most parts of the UK and I doubt many UK citizens really think about the anti-Catholic origins and symbology, nor care, whether they be Protestant, Catholic or whatever. These days Guy Fawkes night is just a time for a party.

 

As far as I understand it, the preservation of the papal effigy used at Lewes is attributed to preserving the memory of 17 Protestant martyrs who were burnt at the stake in the town during the Marian persecutions of 1555–1557 (source Wiki). Outside of some sectarian areas of Scotland and Ulster I doubt there are many Brits that would be comfortable with this use of the papal effigy if they thought about it all.

 

If Lewes would be considered offensive, there are other great firework celebrations in other towns on the south coast near Lewes - for instance Hastings - that don't seem to perpetuate this symbology. See this Wiki article for more info and links.

 

- W