Anglo For Sale In Buy And Sell

[Theodore Kloba]

i've been thinking about this. while the concertina / big mac ratio will be increased in favor of concertinas in the usa, it will unfortunately be increased in favor of big macs in the exporting country. fortunately for the world as a whole, the global concertina / big mac ratio remains unchanged as a result of the transaction.

If the quantity of concertinas and Big Macs is constant, then you're right. The global ratio only changes when we increase concertina production and/or decrease Big Mac production. Hopefully (for the sake of the globe) US demand for UK concertinas will accelerate the production rate of UK manufacturers, without decreasing the production rate of US manufacturers.

[John Wild]

i've been thinking about this. while the concertina / big mac ratio will be increased in favor of concertinas in the usa, it will unfortunately be increased in favor of big macs in the exporting country. fortunately for the world as a whole, the global concertina / big mac ratio remains unchanged as a result of the transaction.

If the quantity of concertinas and Big Macs is constant, then you're right. The global ratio only changes when we increase concertina production and/or decrease Big Mac production. Hopefully (for the sake of the globe) US demand for UK concertinas will accelerate the production rate of UK manufacturers, without decreasing the production rate of US manufacturers.

 

But Big Macs are either eaten or otherwise disposed of soon after being produced. So the ratio should always be increasing in favour of the concertina.

 

- John Wild

[Mark Evans]

I'd have no trouble finding sacrificial victims if it meant keeping concertinas; probably wouldn't need to get as far as you Yanks...

 

This rotund Yank for one is very grateful that it most likely won't get that far .

[Paul Read]

Edited - wrong thread

Edited March 14, 2006 by Paul Read

[m3838]

>perhaps if we paid all the politicians to take up the concertina instead of making up bad laws,the world might be a >better place.

 

A concertina doesn't make you a better person. You don't want to wake up and find that all the politicians now play concertinas (at your expence) AND keep on making bad laws.

Besides, in a democracy there are no bad politicians, but bad citizens. We have what we deserve. Want better? - Get involved.

[Chris Allert]

>perhaps if we paid all the politicians to take up the concertina instead of making up bad laws,the world might be a >better place.

 

A concertina doesn't make you a better person. You don't want to wake up and find that all the politicians now play concertinas (at your expence) AND keep on making bad laws.

Besides, in a democracy there are no bad politicians, but bad citizens. We have what we deserve. Want better? - Get involved.

 

and what's worse than a politician making bad laws *and* playing the concertina badly? while you can in theory vote the politician out of office, you'll have a much harder time getting the politician to play better.

 

i agree that playing the concertina doesn't make you a better person, and from my own experience, it actually makes you worse at your day job. so it's very likely that if all politicians took up the concertina we would end up with even worse laws.

 

i seem to remeber a thread not long ago about how playing the concertina means you're going to hell, though i also recall that there was a problem with the logic leading to this conclusion.

[david_boveri]

On the other hand; I was upset at the suggestion that it would be worth vapourising all the concertinas in the world if it saved every member of the human race. I'd have no trouble finding sacrificial victims if it meant keeping concertinas; probably wouldn't need to get as far as you Yanks...

 

haha, i only said that for the sake of argument. i am, in truth, a horrible person. when new orleans got flooded, my first thought was, "oh no! the french quarter!" then it was, "i wonder how many wheatstones and jeffries were destroyed..." (i just hoped that there were none). then, i got around to thinking, "oh, man, those poor people."

[bill_mchale]

There is a theory in the UK and Ireland, which may or may not be true - I don't know, that the interest of US based indivduals in traditional instruments has forced the price of those instrument up and so "entry" into learning those instruments is financially much harder for the people whose tradition it actually is in the first place.

 

Well being that my Dad is from Mayo and my Mom is from Galway, I resent the idea that somehow I have less of a claim on the Tradition as someone who still lives in Ireland.. Sure I live in America, but America has a very vital Irish Music community and has probably had one since the first Irish came to this country. In many respects Irish Trad belongs to all the Irish, not just those still living in Ireland.

 

Are certain instrument prices going to be impacted by the demand? Sure, but then again the law of economics will play its hand. How many people made concertinas 25 years ago? How many do today? While there might a spike in prices for a while, over all it increases the total supply of instruments which means that it will be easier, not harder for future generations to get started in what essentially are niche instruments that have relatively prominent rolls in Irish music.

 

--

Bill

[bill_mchale]

I have seen several instances of Irish families having to make a deciscion to replace the family car OR buy one of the children a suitable (4K or more) concertina.

 

Pipes, concertinas etc have become rare and hard to find, there's no deying that. People turning up at workshops carrying several pristien Jeffries concertinas/two sets of Wooff pipes/a bunch of flutes etc without being really able to do the isntruments justice while highly talented young players are stuck with mediocre isntrumetns is likely to cause some resentment. And it happens.

 

I think we need to define suitable instruments here. Unless we are going to assume that one needs a Concertina with traditional reeds, there is little reason that one needs to have a 4,000 Euro instrument in order to have a suitable instrument. While the tone may not be quite the same, the general consensus seems to be that the Mid-range instruments are probably more suitable than alot of the Lachenals that are floating around out there; heck they probably out preform a century old Jefferies or Wheatstone that has never been restored. I have heard enough fine playing done on Edgley's, Morses and Tedrows (I am sure the same is true of the European makers) that I think it is fair to say that those instruments are no more an impediment to playing Irish Music than the cost of Old Violins versus student instruments is to aspiring classical Violin players.

 

I agree that hording Jefferies and stuff is bad, but on the flip side, it ultimately means that the total supply of instruments will increase in the long run. If this surge in popularity hadn't come along I doubt if guys like Suttner and Dipper would be making instruments... or at least anywhere near as many as they are now. The concertina would remain an instrument that would have continued to become increasingly rare as the old ones wore out.

 

--

Bill

[Guest Peter Laban]

I think we need to define suitable instruments here. Unless we are going to assume that one needs a Concertina with traditional reeds, there is little reason that one needs to have a 4,000 Euro instrument in order to have a suitable instrument. While the tone may not be quite the same, the general consensus seems to be that the Mid-range instruments are probably more suitable than alot of the Lachenals that are floating around out there; heck they probably out preform a century old Jefferies or Wheatstone that has never been restored. I have heard enough fine playing done on Edgley's, Morses and Tedrows (I am sure the same is true of the European makers) that I think it is fair to say that those instruments are no more an impediment to playing Irish Music than the cost of Old Violins versus student instruments is to aspiring classical Violin players.

 

I agree that hording Jefferies and stuff is bad, but on the flip side, it ultimately means that the total supply of instruments will increase in the long run. If this surge in popularity hadn't come along I doubt if guys like Suttner and Dipper would be making instruments... or at least anywhere near as many as they are now. The concertina would remain an instrument that would have continued to become increasingly rare as the old ones wore out.

 

--

Bill

 

 

'While your tone may not be quite the same'. There you have it. You don't take up the concertina to sound like a sort of accordeon do you. I think the general consensus here is that Marcus etc concertinas just don't have the sound. So we'll have to assume that we're talking about proper concertinas, not the accordeon reeded yokes. So when moving up from the starter/mid range there is not an awful lot of choice. My son went from a bottom range Lachenal to a Crabb. The transition cost an arm and a leg.

 

That the supply in the future may turn out better is not much use when you have a 10-12 year old raring to go.

[Brian Peters]

i agree that playing the concertina doesn't make you a better person, and from my own experience, it actually makes you worse at your day job. so it's very likely that if all politicians took up the concertina we would end up with even worse laws.

 

Idi Amin played melodeon and it didn't make him a notably wise or compassionate politician. But then, that was a melodeon.

 

On the more general thread, I am acquainted with the seller whose comments precipitated this thread, and I suspect they had more to do with seller's devotion to English traditional music - and the necessity for the English to possess appropriate instruments to play on - than any political motive. And maybe a bit of the old "How dare they buy London Bridge / The Queen Elizabeth (the ship not the monarch) etc." came into it too.

 

Speaking as a musician part of whose income (and job satisfaction) depends on teaching Anglo to players on the other side of the big pond, I wouldn't say I agree with him.

Brian

[Mark Evans]

So when moving up from the starter/mid range there is not an awful lot of choice. My son went from a bottom range Lachenal to a Crabb. The transition cost an arm and a leg.

 

That the supply in the future may turn out better is not much use when you have a 10-12 year old raring to go.

 

There you stand in the boots of a mum and dad with a gifted child who plays the violin, viola or cello. They'll pay more, the end of dreams to own a home more. Not fun and makes your heart bleed because you must. The idea I had to pay what I did for my home particularlly considering what it cost to build in 1861 makes my head spin. Blaming other folks is a waste of time and energy. Concertinas have been spared inflation and still have not taken the hit in relation to other instruments. Had not interest increased, certainly we would be headed the way of the Dodo bird.

 

Thanks to the mid range makers and folks like the Dippers who continue and abide.

Edited March 14, 2006 by Mark Evans

[Dirge]

On the other hand; I was upset at the suggestion that it would be worth vapourising all the concertinas in the world if it saved every member of the human race. I'd have no trouble finding sacrificial victims if it meant keeping concertinas; probably wouldn't need to get as far as you Yanks...

 

haha, i only said that for the sake of argument. i am, in truth, a horrible person. when new orleans got flooded, my first thought was, "oh no! the french quarter!" then it was, "i wonder how many wheatstones and jeffries were destroyed..." (i just hoped that there were none). then, i got around to thinking, "oh, man, those poor people."

He He! a soulmate!

[bill_mchale]

'While your tone may not be quite the same'. There you have it. You don't take up the concertina to sound like a sort of accordeon do you. I think the general consensus here is that Marcus etc concertinas just don't have the sound. So we'll have to assume that we're talking about proper concertinas, not the accordeon reeded yokes. So when moving up from the starter/mid range there is not an awful lot of choice. My son went from a bottom range Lachenal to a Crabb. The transition cost an arm and a leg.

 

That the supply in the future may turn out better is not much use when you have a 10-12 year old raring to go.

 

But the thing is, the tone of a Crabb is not quite the same as the tone of a Jefferies, which is not quite the same as the tone as Wheatstone. Every maker has their individual sound. Further, I definitely don't think that the Marcus sounds too much like an accordion (I own one in addition to several different accordions). Again, I think this is akin to the parent of a violinist complaining that the cost of a Stradivarius is making it impossible for their kid to progress on the violin.

 

Finally lets look at it realistically. Currently its going to cost somewhere in the $3500-$4500 range to buy a brand new Suttner (and I presume Dipper would be in the same ball park?), more for some other makes that use more traditional reeds. Considering the waiting lists, the makers are not charging market value for their instruments but rather are making rather modest livings off of making instruments. Now the price of the new concertinas is in the range we were discussing. If a person wants to pay more to get such an instrument sooner, that is their choice, but I think over all it suggests that the costs of Jefferies and Wheatstones is at least not completely out of line with the actual cost of making an instrument.

 

I also think it is somewhat unfair to claim that the Marcus's, Edgley's and others that use modern style accordion reeds are somehow not "proper concertinas".

 

--

Bill

[Chris Timson]

Bill, I was going to reply to this point as well, but I find you've said what I wanted to say, only probably better.

 

We have a friend who makes and repairs violins. The violin she plays in sessions is not one she made; when I asked her why she said that she charged UKP5000 each for them, and she wasn't going to take a 5000 pound instrument down the pub. I sat there looking at my 3500 pound Jeffries thinking strange thoughts ...

 

Chris

[bill_mchale]

Bill, I was going to reply to this point as well, but I find you've said what I wanted to say, only probably better.

 

We have a friend who makes and repairs violins. The violin she plays in sessions is not one she made; when I asked her why she said that she charged UKP5000 each for them, and she wasn't going to take a 5000 pound instrument down the pub. I sat there looking at my 3500 pound Jeffries thinking strange thoughts ...

 

Chris

 

Also lets be realistic. These days most people had alot more disposable income than most of the Irish did when alot of what we consider traditional music was getting started. I expect what we would turn our noses up as one of the poorer lachenals was probably quite highly valued by its owner a 80 or a 100 years ago.

 

--

Bill

[pmmack]

Bill, I was going to reply to this point as well, but I find you've said what I wanted to say, only probably better.

 

We have a friend who makes and repairs violins. The violin she plays in sessions is not one she made; when I asked her why she said that she charged UKP5000 each for them, and she wasn't going to take a 5000 pound instrument down the pub. I sat there looking at my 3500 pound Jeffries thinking strange thoughts ...

 

Chris

 

Wow, that's the exact same thing I said when taking up the 'tina and melodeon.

 

I do not and will not take a $2-4000 instrument into the pub, for sessions and solo, just to get cigar

smoke and stout bumped and poured in/on/around my boxes. I also use them every day at school

and do not want that little K5 child to touch or bump or heaven forbid actually break an expensive

box. I wanted and still use, basic workhorses that play well, but will not break the bank or cause undo

stress if messed up a bit.

 

Likewise, I do not take my $4000 Cerveny tuba anywhere but symphony band practice. I have a smaller

horn to take the bumps with.

[JimLucas]

I do not and will not take a $2-4000 instrument into the pub, for sessions and solo, just to get cigar smoke and stout bumped and poured in/on/around my boxes.

I guess there are pubs... and pubs. Taking a good instrument into a pub doesn't worry me. If it doesn't look safe to take it out of the case, then I don't stay. And if I do stay, it still goes back into the case while I'm not playing it. Cigaret smoke is difficult to avoid entirely in Denmark's pubs, but if it's too thick, I don't stay. And "too thick" means that if I'm worried about what it will do to my 'box, then I'm ten times as worried about what it will do to my body.

 

I also use them every day at school and do not want that little K5 child to touch or bump or heaven forbid actually break an expensive box.

I won't argue that point for you, since I assume you know your kids. However, I have more than once let a 5-year-old or younger I had just met play with my Æola while I went off to do something else. But each had asked very politely if he might try it, had paid close attention as I explained what one should and shouldn't do, and had demonstrated his understanding and carefulness before I left him alone. There have been other occasions when an adult who should have known better walked up and grabbed the instrument without asking,... and was saved from serious harm solely because I feared that he might drop it. In general, I find that children are more respectful of my concertinas than adults, not less. There are always exceptions, though.