Is This Going To Get Me Into Trouble?

[nils]

Many vintage english concertinas have means to fit wrist straps. The button box would certainly be able to do the necessary work without damaging the concertina.I try to attach a photo of a baritone with straps.

[JimLucas]

The wrist-strap seems like a worthwhile idea. Did you mean "Anglo wrist-straps," by any chance?

Contrary to many people calling them "wrist straps", I have yet to see an anglo player insert his/her wrists into those straps. They are hand straps!

 

Wrist straps for the English I may comment on after tonight's concert.

 

Gotta run!

[greenferry]

I try to attach a photo of a baritone with straps.

 

 

Nils,

 

That's a good clear photo, and the straps look quite nice the way they are attached. I will certainly think about this.

 

The important stuff here it the addition of a hand strap and a handrest - the latter is tilted at an angle (about 17 degrees). /Henrik

 

Getting back to Henrik's innovations, the handrest idea seems like a really useful one, too. Currently, I have the cupped palm of my hand resting against the wood. My hand is small enough that it sits on the edge easily. But I could envision some sort of soft, ergonomic, spongy-type (minimal) padding along the edge to make it even more comfortable. Perhaps something that could stick on lightly, without having to mar the finish of the wood. I wonder what product or materials would stick lightly to the wood, without leaving a mark, and also be adjustable? Is there any sort of sticky material or glue that doesn't ruin a wood finish? Anybody have any ideas on that?

 

Just a wild guess on the number, but is it by any chance Albion number 077? If so, I've seen and played that one. It's really nice and has a sweet tone. Felt like it had been carefully played in and taken excellent care of. I even think the tone might have mellowed just a bit compared to a newer one; say like Albion 277. -- bruce boysen

 

So right you are, Bruce, as it is your very own, indeed, and well cared for by an expert player. It definitely has good karma.

 

Thanks, Bruce!

 

[Larry Stout]

When I got my most recent Wheatstone (a model 21 nickel ended one from 1913) I noticed that it had inserts for a bolt like the one which holds the thumb straps and two small bolts symmetrically placed on the sides of the ends. Wanting to know more about the instrument I had just gotten I looked it up in the Horiman ledgers. There I found the notation SVWS, which I eventually figured out referred to steel vibrators (SV) and that they were originally supplied with a wrist strap (the WS). I've attached a picture of the instrument showing the attachment hardware.

 

Does anyone make replacement wrist straps of the kind supplied originally with this model? I'm not sure I'd want one since the instrument is fairly light and I usually play sitting down anyway, but I haven't seen wrist straps for English concertinas on any of the accessories pages.

 

Edited December 8, 2005 by Larry Stout

[RatFace]

His CD with pianist David Milligan is called "The Big Day In" - fantastic music-making!

 

The two CDs by his band "Keep it Up" are also excellent, especially On Safari.

 

As for the pinky - mine can be found (at different times) : on the rest, where yours is in the photo, not touching anything and on/playing buttons (fairly rarely) - see here.

 

My opinion is that constraining the hand through fixing the pinky (even more so when actually using it to support the concertina, resulting in static tension across the hand) and wrist/hand-straps will be bad news in the long run - but whether or not that matters depends on (a) how far/where you want to take your concertina playing ( if you're such a good musician that you'll be an awesome player anyway!

[lildogturpy]

But what seems easiest at first isn't necessarily the best in the long term.

 

I've been playing amost two years now and always had my pinkies bolted into the pinkie rest. As I'm getting to play faster and more from the feel of the tune rather than remembering the notes I've notice my pinkies go wandering while I'm not looking. Several times I've realized that while I still use my index, middle and ring fingers to play the notes, my pinkie seems to think I'm drinking a refined cup of tea and is pointing to the player sitting opposite me. As soon as I notice this I get all disoriented and herd them back into their rests. Maybe soon they'll try pressing on the buttons by themselves and I won't even realize. I would agree with Jim though, when I started out, the way I thought about my hand position and what my fingers were doing is quite different from now.

 

On a slightly different topic ... I don't use hand straps and don't like the idea for myself. I would like pointers on what to do with my wrists. I've begun to realize that ofter my hand is angled outward from my forearm so there is a bend at my wrist. My piano lessons when I was a kid taught me to "keep those wrists high" to give strength to the whole hand. Should I be aiming for a more straight hand/forearm, so my wrists don't "sag".

[John Wild]

If you ever get the chance to hear and watch Scottish player Simon Thoumire on the English, and the results achieved, I'm sure that it flies in the face of all traditional methods of holding the instrument. Hard to describe, but the fingers are almost along the rows rather than across them. He uses all 4 fingers and ignores the little finger plate completely. Has to be seen to be believed.

 

MC

 

I believe he holds the concertina in almost a vertical position, i.e. at right angles to the 'conventional' position. He is brilliant and totally unique.

 

Historically, I would mention the late John Hutcherson, a contemporary of Frank Butler. He held the concertina at the 'conventional' angle, but did not use the finger rest - he used the pinky in combination with other fingers to play melodies with sometimes complex harmonies or chords.

 

- John Wild

[malcolm clapp]

Apologies, Jim, and to any one else who found my post on this topic to be combatative and ambiguous.

 

Always happy to accept constructive criticism of my use of the English language and of my lack of knowledge.

 

MC

 

 

(Edited to check and correct syntax).

Edited December 9, 2005 by malcolm clapp

[JimLucas]

Apologies, Jim, and to any one else who found my post on this topic to be combatative and ambiguous.

I wasn't criticizing, just noting that different usage can lead to misunderstanding, as that one Topic I linked demonstrated. A common example of that sort of problem in the US is that at one end of the country "regular coffee" means black coffee, while at the other end it means coffee with milk. Some nasty complaints have resulted when a waiter on the "with milk" coast delivered a cup to someone from the "black" coast who simply ordered "regular". (The other way around, at least they could add the milk. )

 

The real problem with such misunderstandings is that we usually don't learn about them until they cause us trouble. That's why I was pointing it out now, before we developed a new thread as long and convoluted as the one I linked to.

[Mark Evans]

That's why I was pointing it out now, before we developed a new thread as long and convoluted as the one I linked to.

 

Jim, I loved that long and convoluted thread and enjoyed reading it again. Thank you for linking to it (I hoped you would).

 

I am from a region of the south were "regular coffee" means black and very, very strong. The move to New England 18 years ago brought only one nasty early morning coffee suprise...ugh. I straight way bought a lovely Italian machine from the now defunct Coffee Connection (swallowed up by mega monster Star*****) and have made my own "regular coffee" at home since .

[malcolm clapp]

Apologies, Jim, and to any one else who found my post on this topic to be combatative and ambiguous.

I wasn't criticizing, just noting that different usage can lead to misunderstanding, as that one Topic I linked demonstrated. A common example of that sort of problem in the US is that at one end of the country "regular coffee" means black coffee, while at the other end it means coffee with milk. Some nasty complaints have resulted when a waiter on the "with milk" coast delivered a cup to someone from the "black" coast who simply ordered "regular". (The other way around, at least they could add the milk. )

 

The real problem with such misunderstandings is that we usually don't learn about them until they cause us trouble. That's why I was pointing it out now, before we developed a new thread as long and convoluted as the one I linked to.

 

 

It's not the first time we've been here, Jim.

Edited December 9, 2005 by malcolm clapp

[greenferry]

I am from a region of the south were "regular coffee" means black and very, very strong. The move to New England 18 years ago brought only one nasty early morning coffee suprise...ugh. I straight way bought a lovely Italian machine from the now defunct Coffee Connection (swallowed up by mega monster Star*****) and have made my own "regular coffee" at home since .

 

Well, I'm not a linguist but my own experience here in the Boston area is that when you go to Dunkin Donuts and order just about any kind of coffee, they deliver it "with sugar," unless you remember to tell them "no sugar." Sometimes, they will remember to ask you, "Regular?" and if you say Yes, thinking that it will be just coffee and milk, you will wind up with coffee, milk, and sugar. Ever since I got an expresso machine, I like to drink mine at home. (without sugar!!)

[Mark Evans]

Ah, dear the Dunkin'....Here in small town Milford we have 4, count em' 4! One in the local grocery store so you can never be too far from a Dunkaccino "coffee drink'. They have provided cup holders on the grocery carts for just such an occation:ph34r: .

 

Now that we have a thread drift as wide as the Mississippi I'll attempt a course correction: So you have lucky #77, how do you intend to proceed with learning your way around the buttons? Chords, scales, tutorial or free style? I myself just plunged into tunes I liked and lurched off blindly by the seat a' me pants. Perhaps not the best method but what I'm always compelled to do.

[respi]

...

I did what came natural and anchored my pinkies on the wood (see picture).

 

Is this going to get me into trouble once I start playing? I am wondering if any of you have the same problem and how you get around it. Is it okay to not put pinkies in the finger rests?

...

Allright! A (good) can of worms. A can I have comfortably lived in for quite a while.

 

I have small (old) fingers, my little fingers are small, and around 2001-2... I found that I was getting pains in them, pains in the joints. I also realised I wasn't always using the pinkie rest, sometimes just placed the pinkie and, if possible, the ring finger on the metal end, like your photo.

 

Cutting a long story short: I bought a Stagi miniature, played it a while, and then (brutally) modified it, until it felt good:

 

 

 

(It has been modified a bit more = "real", comfortable thumb straps).

 

The important stuff here it the addition of a hand strap and a handrest - the latter is tilted at an angle (about 17 degrees). The result is that I play slightly across the rows - again like your photo. I'll see if I can come up with a photo of my hands, playing.

 

I am very, very comfortable playing this way - I can get low (though there isn't anything to press at the Stagi miniature ) and I can do the cross-fingering and all the "illegal" stuff necessary for me to play Irish music.

 

I should stress that this is in no way "the right way to do it" - what is comfortable for one person can be useless for another. But this works for me.

 

A note about the thumb straps: they are placed so that my thumbs go all the way through - contrary to when I play my Wheatstone, where I "carry" the instrument on the first part of the thumb. It seems to work like this:

 

With pinkie rests: my thumbs are just inside the straps (and I was getting thumb pains as well)

Wihout rests and with a handrest that encourages playing at an angle: the thumbs can go all the way through and thus carries the instrument better. Not that that is so important here - the Stagi is ridiculously light.

 

Take a look at this man:

 

http://www.simonthoumire.com/gallery.htm

 

See? Playing at an angle across the rows...

 

Needless to say, the concertina I am attempting to build, is based on this idea.

 

/Henrik

Hey, I had just the same problem with the Stagi miniature (though my hands are rather large...). So: How did you fix the "brutal change"? Do you have more detailed photos or descriptions?

 

regards, respi

[JimLucas]

Wrist straps for the English I may comment on after tonight's concert.

(The concert went well: The shanty chorus performed at the Seamen's Church across the sound in Sweden, and I think both the singing and accompaniment were the best we've done.)

 

Wrist straps: Wrist straps on the English are not meant to be used like the hand straps on an anglo or duet. They do go across the wrist, not the back of the hand. It's unwise to use them for support, though if your instrument slips out of your hands, they might catch it temporarily, allowing you to catch it before it hits the floor. They're no help at all when you're pressing the bellows, though some people press their wrists outward against them to help draw the bellows open.

 

It's unwise to depend on wrist straps for support for two reasons.

... One is that I've seen a couple of them break. (Those were old ones, but one can never be sure how strong they are. They're thinner leather than the usual hand straps.) If you come to depend on them to support the instrument, the day they fail may see you needing a new instrument.

... But the other reason is that in order to use a wrist strap to support the instrument with adequate control it will have to be relatively tight, tight enough to restrict the movement of your hand. Adjusted more loosely, they can still be used to help pull the bellows open, though I personally find that I don't need such assistance.

 

A word (well, several) about restricting hand movement: In standard orientation, the keyboard of the English concertina extends along the line from the wrist to the fingertips, but is narrow enough is the crosswise direction to fit entirely under the palm of most adult hands. To shift between the lower and higher notes, the fingertips have to be able to move extensively "forward" and "back" along that "long" direction, and that is greatly assisted by being able to move the hand forward and back. The thumb loop-and-finger rest means of holding the English allows just such motion without loss of control, since it can be done in part by bending the thumbs rather than by moving them. Flexing of the hand, wrist, and fingers can all be used to adjust the position of the fingertips. A too-tight wrist strap can take away some of that freedom of movement.

 

I admit that that would be less of a concern for someone who never uses the highest notes... or even for someone playing an Albion, which has 1½ rows less extension in both hands than on a standard 48-button model. (Then again, the Albion is so light that adding support seems excessive.) It should be more important for someone who uses the full range of a 56- or 64-button English, which I do. (I'm still looking for one of the fabled 84-button wonders. )

 

So if you want to use the wrist strap to help with opening the bellows, it might help. Otherwise, if you don't brace the instrument against your leg (e.g., if you play while standing) and don't use my recommended "grip" method of holding the instrument, then all the pullng will be done by your thumbs, which will also be trying to control the orientation of the ends. But as I've noted, using them for support while holding the instrument free in the air is not a good idea, and if you are seated and supporting the instrument with your leg, you shouldn't need added support.

[Henrik Müller]

Hey, I had just the same problem with the Stagi miniature (though my hands are rather large...). So: How did you fix the "brutal change"? Do you have more detailed photos or descriptions?

 

regards, respi

I can certainly make a small photo series that shows better what I did. When I say "brutal", it means that I didn't put any effort into doing it with precision or adding any finishing, laquer or cosmetics on the job. The goal was to find out if it worked (and hence use the idea for a "real" instrument).

 

Give me a couple of days and I'll come up with something.

 

The basic idea was to add more "size" to it, so that the bottom part (closest to the player) had the same dimensions as a "standard" concertina (6 1/4" across the flats), and then place the handrest and the hand straps on that. Click on my card and you can see it played.

 

Regards,

 

/Henrik

[nils]

I know I'm representing a minority but I would like to say some things in favour of wrist straps. I don't disagree with you, Jim, in most points you made, but playing the english the pulling is the difficult part, because the power is transfered to the instrument by the thumbstraps only. (On the push the pinkie helps.) The hevyier the concertina, the more effort is needed. In this situation wriststraps (yes, very loose ones) help a lot.

 

I believe with most free reed instruments the pull is the movement where you can emphasize phrases. The best example of that ist Tango-Bandoneon playing. And I feel the english concertina has a little weak spot there.

 

Am I the only pro-wrist-straps-man on concertina.net?

 

Nils

[Paul Read]

Some of the larger Wheatsones and many from the 1910-1929 period (and probably others) come fitted with wrist straps. As Jim Lucas has pointed out a number of times in the past, these are different to handstraps on an anglo. They sit across the wrist as opposed to just behind the fingers. I personally really like them but some people think they are somewhat restrictive.

 

I would think that in the old concertinas bands when you were marching or playing standing up they would have been extremely welcome.

 

I have had a couple of converted English concertinas pass my way where the thumstraps and finger rests have been replaced by home made handstraps.