Is This Going To Get Me Into Trouble?

[Ken_Coles]

I know I'm representing a minority but I would like to say some things in favour of wrist straps. I don't disagree with you, Jim, in most points you made, but playing the english the pulling is the difficult part, because the power is transfered to the instrument by the thumbstraps only. (On the push the pinkie helps.) The hevyier the concertina, the more effort is needed. In this situation wriststraps (yes, very loose ones) help a lot.

 

I believe with most free reed instruments the pull is the movement where you can emphasize phrases. The best example of that ist Tango-Bandoneon playing. And I feel the english concertina has a little weak spot there.

 

Am I the only pro-wrist-straps-man on concertina.net?

 

Nils

 

I am an anglo player with a history of RSI problems in my hands/arms. When I decided to try playing English concertina, it quickly became clear I needed more attachments to the instrument. I had Bob Snope at the Button Box add wrist straps to my Lachenal treble. It has made all the difference for me; I now sometimes rest the little finger and sometimes move it around and play notes with it. I would not have made this modification to an heirloom instrument, but this is a rosewood ended/metal button treble with various imperfections that reduce its value; it is no museum piece. Since my original carpal problems, I am not shy about modifying musical instruments to make them playable without medical issues; nothing sacred to me about the original design.

 

Ken

[JimLucas]

I know I'm representing a minority but I would like to say some things in favour of wrist straps.

Which minority? Those who use wrist straps are a minority. Those who think they're useful may not be. My own lack of enthusiasm for them is that I don't find them useful for the way I play.

 

I also recommend my own technique, but for people who don't use it, conclusions based on it may not apply.

 

I don't disagree with you, Jim, in most points you made, but playing the english the pulling is the difficult part, because the power is transfered to the instrument by the thumbstraps only.

The difference here is that the way I hold the instrument it is not only the thumbs that pull; it is also the little fingers. As my thumb presses downward on the frame inside the loop, so my little finger presses upward on the underside of the finger plate. This is the "grip" I talk about. It's really no different from holding a block of wood or any other object between the thumb and little finger. It only requires a little pressure, not a lot, but it means that when pulling on the end the pressure is on the pads of both thumb and little finger, not on the side of the thumb. It also means that the pulling is balanced on both sides of the keyboard, rather than being off center (only the thumb), which would produce a twisting force that has to be compensated in some way: bracing the instrument against a leg; or pressing against wrist straps; or pulling outward and upward, rather than just outward.

 

I want to emphasize that the pressure against both the finger plate and the thumbstrap support isn't great. It should be only enough to control the instrument. Unnecessarily strong pressure definitely will interfere with finger dexterity and perhaps lead to pain, but gentleness is what's required. This is a general rule which is true in other activities: It's very difficult to throw a ball accurately if you're squeezing it tightly as you try to release it.

 

I believe with most free reed instruments the pull is the movement where you can emphasize phrases. The best example of that ist Tango-Bandoneon playing. And I feel the english concertina has a little weak spot there.

By "emphasize" I presume you mean apply dynamic emphasis by a strong change in pressure. Others have also said that this is best (easiest) done on the pull, yet my personal experience is that there is little difference, but if there is any, my push seems the more dynamic. Could this difference in experience also be a consequence of the different ways we hold and control our instruments? (That's a question, not a claim. I don't really know.) I do make considerable use of such dynamic emphasis.

 

But I think the comparison with the bandoneon is misleading. The bandoneon is much larger and heavier than a concertina and it has a much floppier bellows. The size and weight make it much more difficult to control the ends of a bandoneon, and the limpness of the bellows adds to the difficulty, particularly on the push, if the instrument is supported and controlled only by the hands. (It's a bit like trying to push a string.) On the other hand, the more rigid bellows of English-construction concertinas can actually assist in keeping the ends oriented and under control, and their small size and weight make it reasonable (I know there are those who disagree) to have the instrument fully supported as well as controlled by the hands.

 

"Mostly on the pull" is only one component of the common style of bandoneon playing, as I've heard it described and also seen it. Another is to play in a sitting position and drape the bellows across the leg. The two are not independent. With the bellows draped over the leg, the strongest motion is a downward pull, where both hands are pulling against the anchor of the leg rather than against each other. Because the bellows aren't rigid, you don't get the same stability on the push, thus it's more difficult to make strong movements and also to control the orientation.

 

(As a digression, I'll ask two questions: Why don't bandoneonists play entirely on the pull, so they could get rid of half the reeds and nearly half the weight? And why don't we hear that players of Chemnitzer concertinas -- which differ from bandoneons mainly in the keyboard layout -- play mainly on the pull? If they don't, then maybe it's more a question of tradition and "belief" with bandoneonists than absoute superiority.)

 

The differences in size and bellows construction -- and with the English, the means of holding the ends -- give very different results for the different methods of holding and controlling bandoneons and English-engineered concertinas, which I believe makes transferring any "lessons learned" from one to the other questionable, at best.

 

But as I said somewhere above, if you don't hold the instrument the way I do, then my experience with other details -- not only wrist straps, but painful thumbs and more -- may not apply to you.

 

Am I the only pro-wrist-straps-man on concertina.net?

Others have raised their "voices" here in the past. Probably a few of them will weigh in, again.

[Mark Evans]

I've attached a picture of the instrument showing the attachment hardware.

 

 

 

 

Looking at Larry's concertina, I realize that my Aeola 64 note circa 1921 did indeed have the same hardware. It was a heavy beast and even as a young fella I had to brace my elbows into my belly while performing with my bluegrass band after a couple of songs. I later resorted to putting my foot on the instrument's case so it could be rested on the the left knee while standing. Maybe I would have liked straps. Today, with my hands as they are it would be a certainty.

 

The Morse is light and I love to move around with it while I play. No extra attachments are needed. I do miss the extra range however...but not that much .

Edited December 10, 2005 by Mark Evans

[JimLucas]

Looking at Larry's concertina, I realize that my Aeola 64 note circa 1921 did indeed have the same hardware.

So do my tenor-treble and my baritone-treble, but not my bass.

 

Wrist straps were common on tenor-treble and larger instruments, much less common on trebles. Many of those instruments today have the hardware, but no straps. Is it that these instruments were delivered with the hardware but without straps, because the owners didn't care for the straps and subsequently lost them, or that they wore them out, or what? We may never know.

 

It was a heavy beast and even as a young fella I had to brace my elbows into my belly while performing with my bluegrass band after a couple of songs.

This is the part that always leaves me wondering. I'm not a large individual. (5'6" -- 168 cm -- at high tide, I like to say. ) I'm moderately strong, but not particularly muscular. I don't lift weights or otherwise work out regularly, except for playing concertina. But I have no difficulty playing even the larger English concertinas -- my contrabass weighs 3.25 kg (7 lb, 2½ oz) -- while standing, supporting and controlling the instrument only with my hands and arms. (I find I have less control with the bar-and-strap support of my big duets, though I don't find it difficult to hold them up.) Even when seated I'm as likely as not to hold my larger Englishes suspended above my legs, not resting on them.

 

I admit that when I was starting out on a borrowed Lachenal I experienced some fatigue and pain in both my thumbs and little fingers, but with practice that went away... in a matter of a month or two, not years. It's my belief that most people should be able to build up the necessary strength and flexibility to hold and play a standard treble English concertina without extreme effort... strength and flexibility that I believe also help to prevent things like painful thumbs and repetitive-strain injuries.

 

However, this may depend on holding the instrument "my way", using both the thumb and the little finger (whether you hold it under the finger plate or simply brace it against the end). I use -- and exercise -- the natural strength of the thumb and finger, the muscles that bend those digits inward to press toward each other. I maintain that if you "hang" the instrument from your thumbs, then you have to press them upward to support it, an "unnatural" direction, involving weaker muscles. I think those muscles are much more likely to be overtaxed and much more difficult to strengthen. And I think it actually supports my case that there seems to be a strong correlation between those who claim my method of holding the concertina is "wrong" or "impossible" and those who claim that painful thumbs are "unavoidable" without accessory support.

 

Another point about supporting and controlling the instrument only with the thumbs: I mentioned elsewhere in this thread that this results in a torsion (twisting force), because the thumb loops are off center, while using both thumb and little finger eliminates the twisting by applying balancing forces on both sides of the center line. If only the thumbs are used, then they have to counteract the torsion with a twisting force of their own, another un-natural use of the thumbs which is likely to overstress the weaker muscles. I.e., another likely source of pain or injury.

 

There are various ways to relieve these strains on the thumb's weaker muscles: wrist straps & neck straps; bracing against the leg; even a support under the palm (so that instead of using only the thumb, or the thumb and little finger, one uses the thumb and the entire base of the palm for control). I prefer to use the thumb and little finger in a gentle gripping motion, employing the stronger muscles rather than the weaker ones. It works, at least for me, and very well.

[Mark Evans]

Jim, very interesting what you write here. At the time I owned the Aeola, my living was very physical (logger and later a comercial carpenter). I was in the best shape of my life. The pain and fatigue was associated with the pinky fingers and discomfort in the forearms. This crept up on me as I held the instrument out at an approximate 45 degree angle. To get a rest I would hoist the instrument up at a 90 degree angle, bracing the elbows in the (then flat) belly and it would be picked up by the vocal mike. I now realize that I was trying to support the whole weight with those pinkies.

 

Has my techique improved? I would say not. Again the Albion and it's lightness allows me to get away with foolishness I'm sure. I notice however that my possitioning of the pinkies is just barely on the finger plates these days, but they are curled, and that's mosty likely a sign of even more tension on them.

 

Old dog, older tricks I guess.

 

I will try this gentle gripping technique you discribe and see if those pinkies will relax a bit.

Edited December 10, 2005 by Mark Evans

[JimLucas]

I will try this gentle gripping technique you discribe and see if those pinkies will relax a bit.

Something important that I neglected to emphasize in this thread in my description of my "gripping" technique: I insert only the first (tip) joint of my thumb into the loop. If you jam your thumb in to the base, then you lose the use of the muscles in the two outer joints. You need to be able to bend them to grip. If you stick them through, then the only thing you'll be able to grip is air, not the concertina.

 

I also keep my thumb loops snug, so that my thumbs can't go in beyond the first loop. But if I borrow an instrument with loose loops, I don't try to tighten them, since I'm not using the loop to hold my thumb in place, but the "grip" -- pressing downward on the inside bottom of the loop -- keeps my thumb in position; it doesn't slide around.

 

I should also mention that for people who simply "hang" the instrument from their thumbs, sticking only the tip into the loop can increase the strain (and potentially, pain) on the weak muscles that are trying to pull upward against gravity. Using only parts of my technique while neglecting others should not be expected to give good results.

[Mark Evans]

Dagnabit! I'm very fond of jammin' thumbs up to the hilt with very loose thumb straps. Hum. since at this point in time I'm experiencing no pain, the experiment will have to wait. Me thumbs are happy and the pinkies can go hang. How's that for avoidance?

Edited December 10, 2005 by Mark Evans

[JimLucas]

...since at this point in time I'm experiencing no pain, the experiment will have to wait. ... How's that for avoidance?

We each have our priorities.

Whatever you do, enjoy!

[greenferry]

I've learned a lot from all the great details everyone has provided.

 

I have another question, though, about the thumbs and the position of the instrument. I wonder how many of you rotate the concertina so that the buttons are diagonal instead of horizontal -- and whether this technique gives the thumb a lot more control, since there is the benefit of gravity pulling the instrument downward, against the thumb. It occurred to me from the discussions of Simon Thoumire's technique that this may help explain why he can control the instrument with just the thumbs, and be able to use all four fingers to play.

[JimLucas]

...how many of you rotate the concertina so that the buttons are diagonal instead of horizontal.... It occurred to me from the discussions of Simon Thoumire's technique that this may help explain why he can control the instrument with just the thumbs, and be able to use all four fingers to play.

One reason he can do that -- and I suspect a major reason -- is that he never plays standing, and he braces his instrument against his leg. As I already mentioned, that applies regardless of the alignment of the fingers to the buttons. It holds the instrument in a stable position and orientation.

 

I like to be able to stand and to swing my concertina around in the air, two activities which are incompatible with the sit-and-brace method.

[Henrik Müller]

Do you have more detailed photos or descriptions?

 

regards, respi

Yep - here they come, and:

...

Am I the only pro-wrist-straps-man on concertina.net?

 

Nils

no, Nils, you are not (though I confess to never having tried a, say, Wheatstone, with straps - only studied the photo of you from Arran). See the following:

 

Here is the basic idea of the change to the Stagi:

 

 

 

1) Parts of standard size sides are made with 3 mm plywood and some 15x20 mm wood. This fakes part of the sides on a real instrument.

 

2) The size/vertical position of the fake sides basically moves the vertical instrument center (as I define here as the center of the b on my 48 button Wheatstone) up so the new center is a line touching the top of the a.

 

3) The thumbstraps are waaaay down compared to my Wheatstone, where the top of the thumbstrap (metal) aligns with the center of the G. Here it aligns with the center of the low G (right side). That one of the major changes.

 

4) In the picture, I have pointed out the dummy buttons - small paper dots for the buttons I miss.

 

5) The angled hand rest is clearly seen (I have unscrewed the hand strap)

 

Next photos: a bottom shot, an "inside" shot, and finally the thing in action:

 

 

 

I now consider needs for further explanations of the word "brutal" ended

 

/Henrik

[greenferry]

Henrik,

 

That's pretty amazing!

[David Barnert]

...how many of you rotate the concertina so that the buttons are diagonal instead of horizontal.... It occurred to me from the discussions of Simon Thoumire's technique that this may help explain why he can control the instrument with just the thumbs, and be able to use all four fingers to play.

One reason he can do that -- and I suspect a major reason -- is that he never plays standing, and he braces his instrument against his leg. As I already mentioned, that applies regardless of the alignment of the fingers to the buttons. It holds the instrument in a stable position and orientation.

 

I like to be able to stand and to swing my concertina around in the air, two activities which are incompatible with the sit-and-brace method.

See the discussion going on right now in the "Morris Music" thread. The angle the instrument is held at often depends upon whether or not it is supported by anything other than the hands (knee, neck strap).

[Henrik Müller]

...

See the discussion going on right now in the "Morris Music" thread. The angle the instrument is held at often depends upon whether or not it is supported by anything other than the hands (knee, neck strap).

Thanks, David (?!) - for making me realise that I kept forgetting to add one comment to the Stagi surgery series: it changes the playing position to "sit down" - classical EC "wave-the-thing-around" is off.

 

Since I focus solely on ITM, the main goal was to improve playability when sitting down. It probably looks fairly Anglo-like.

 

/Henrik

[Mark Evans]

Henrik, have you done anything with the reeds to produce that beautiful sound you're getting? If not, it's the damndist Stagi I've ever heard!

[Henrik Müller]

Henrik, have you done anything with the reeds to produce that beautiful sound you're getting? If not, it's the damndist Stagi I've ever heard!

Interesting question, Mark -

I think the only thing I've done is to play it a lot, and quite hard. I recently heard a clip with Mary MacNamara and Martin Hayes (from RTE new DVD), liked it a lot, sat down to play it... hmmm. Ah - C and F, of course. So - that will take a little longer. I started to listen to the Bb, which I rarely use, since I play very few tunes in F, and those I do play use higher notes that don't exist on this little thaing. Long story short: the Bb sound very different from the other notes ( I will have to provide an example after this, I am sure ).

The only explanation I can come up with is of course that the Bb reed has been used very little and the others abused very much. To paraphrase Eurythmics:

 

"Some of them want to be used, some of them want to be abused"

 

So I guess reed abuse is good

 

Someone said recently that the Stagi miniature was "sharp" - playing a phrase on the 1909 Wheatstone metal ends and then the same phrase on the Stagi makes the latter sound flat and dull. Still, it has something (yeah, cheap accordion reeds) that can be forced into sounding sweet, sometimes.

 

/Henrik