Double-extended EC what would you call it?

[Matthew Heumann]

I have a lovely 64-button Aeola Wheatstone from Chris Algar. I love it, but don't know how to categorize it. It has the same fingering as a standard upward-extended 56-button treble, but with a additional octave down as well. It appears to be similar to what Wheatstone called a 19a model. The question is are they tenor-trebles, double extended trebles, treble-baritone?

Thanks for the answers in advance.

[seanc]

I would go with tenor- extended treble?

 

[d.elliott]

If the thumb strap centre lines are positioned opposite the note key centre lines as for a standard treble (C on Left and D on right), then it is a treble, extended up and down to baritone range. If the keys straps are set for a treble then it is not a baritone, which is a transposing instrument and has it's straps set for the C & D one octave lower.. The scale shown in your picture is not a full octave down, it is the tenor range, and upwards so the 'Baritone' label does not apply.

[Matthew Heumann]

Thank-you David, thumb straps are as in standard Treble, so I guess I'll go with Treble double extended down to Tenor?

Or maybe keep it simple: 64-button treble Wheatstone Aeola

Sounds like its time for a forum lesson/discussion on types, models and ranges of EC.

Thanks again.

---Matt

[David Barnert]

The picture seems to be a 56-key instrument. Only 28 keys are seen on the right side.

[Matthew Heumann]

David: The 1920s catalog that the picture came from only showed the one instrument but the write-up mentioned 56-64-button options. The model 9a was written up as a 64-button. Another case of a generic graphic.

[Clive Thorne]

10 hours ago, d.elliott said:

If the thumb strap centre lines are positioned opposite the note key centre lines as for a standard treble (C on Left and D on right), then it is a treble, extended up and down to baritone range. If the keys straps are set for a treble then it is not a baritone, which is a transposing instrument and has it's straps set for the C & D one octave lower.. The scale shown in your picture is not a full octave down, it is the tenor range, and upwards so the 'Baritone' label does not apply.

My head just exploded.

[Little John]

On 2/15/2024 at 1:15 AM, Matthew Heumann said:

It has the same fingering as a standard upward-extended 56-button treble, but with a additional octave down as well.

 

The extra 8 buttons would give you an additional fifth below, not an octave. That being so, I agree with

 

On 2/15/2024 at 1:32 AM, seanc said:

I would go with tenor- extended treble?

 

It a tenor-treble with an extended top end; so "tenor-extended treble" is a clear and accurate description.

 

On 2/15/2024 at 1:18 PM, Matthew Heumann said:

so I guess I'll go with Treble double extended down to Tenor?

 

Inventing your own terminology helps no-one.

 

 

[d.elliott]

Don't forget that the anomaly is the expression 'Tenor Treble'. by rights it should have been termed a 'Treble-Tenor' as it is a treble extended down through the Tenor range. There were  a few Tenor instruments made that  had the low 'C' on the Left hand side. I suppose that some might think of them as a short baritone?

[Little John]

1 hour ago, d.elliott said:

Don't forget that the anomaly is the expression 'Tenor Treble'. by rights it should have been termed a 'Treble-Tenor' as it is a treble extended down through the Tenor range.

 

I agree. I was just sticking with convention in using "tenor-treble".

 

1 hour ago, d.elliott said:

There were  a few Tenor instruments made that  had the low 'C' on the Left hand side. I suppose that some might think of them as a short baritone?

 

That's spot on, provided C3 was positioned exactly where C4 (middle C) would be on a treble.

 

[John Wild]

7 hours ago, d.elliott said:

Don't forget that the anomaly is the expression 'Tenor Treble'. by rights it should have been termed a 'Treble-Tenor' as it is a treble extended down through the Tenor range.

Someone I met a few years ago, on my enquiring, told me his instrument was a treble-baritone.

After a few more questions, I identified this as what is more commonly described as a baritone-treble.

His definition sounded more accurate to me, but I doubt if that would become an accepted definition now, when baritone-treble is commonly accepted.

[Geoffrey Crabb]

Mathew and all, 

Bit late to this,

Many descriptions for English concertinas, mostly confusing, have been used over the years but the convention adopted by past makers has been, besides shape, finish etc.

                 Number of keys (buttons) / Lowest to highest ranges included.

Therefore, the instrument under discussion would be, as suggested, a 64b Tenor- Treble.

 

One thing that I think would be advantageous is adding the actual range in the description of other instruments i.e.  56b Treble   Range G3- G6 

 

However, I have attached some info regarding descriptions and layouts, that some might find useful, or not.

 

English Desciptions.doc

 

Geoff

[Matthew Heumann]

Thank-you everyone for the input, its easy to see how one gets confused with the classifications.

And thank-you Geoffrey for the attachment. By the way, in the first years of my English Concertina playing (1972-73), I was visiting London and while walking around the neighborhoods stumbled upon the London Rd. Crabb Concertinas shop and was graciously invited in and given the grand tour by Harry himself (I seem to remember Neville working quietly in the other room). Fine gentleman! A milestone experience in my 50 yrs+ of EC.

[Little John]

On 2/17/2024 at 4:19 PM, Geoffrey Crabb said:

I have attached some info regarding descriptions and layouts, ...

 

Useful, though I disagree with the description (top of page 3) "48 button Tenor". It has treble fingering extended down to tenor range. It's exactly the same as the "56 button Tenor-Treble" below it apart from lacking the top row, so it's a 48 button Tenor-Treble.

 

I'm sure not everyone will agree, but to me a true tenor has F3 where your C4 is shown (and thus C4 where your G4 is shown).

 

John.

[Geoffrey Crabb]

On 3/2/2024 at 11:16 AM, Little John said:

Useful, though I disagree with the description (top of page 3) "48 button Tenor". It has treble fingering extended down to tenor range. It's exactly the same as the "56 button Tenor-Treble" below it apart from lacking the top row, so it's a 48 button Tenor-Treble.

Of course, everybody is entitled to their own thoughts. Certainly when ‘Wheatstone’ included a 48k (C3-F6) in their English range it was listed within the Tenor-Treble section of their pricelists (circa 1931 on). Later, ‘48 Tenor’ became standard.

I have no personal objection to ‘48K Tenor- Treble’ being used, if the range (C3- F6) is included and recognized universally.

 

On 3/2/2024 at 11:16 AM, Little John said:

 

I'm sure not everyone will agree, but to me a true tenor has F3 where your C4 is shown (and thus C4 where your G4 is shown).

With respect, I’m not sure what you mean by true? tenor.

 

Some alternative 48's with C3-F6 range were made 'to customer requirement' where the thumb strap and finger plate aligned with the F3 (left) and D3 (right) rows. Unfortunately, these were not popular to the used market due to this arrangement.

 

Geoff