"Just avoid the C-sharps"

[Roger Hare]

1 hour ago, Michael Eskin said:

Roger, I'm not talking about bands and audiences, I'm specifically talking about the viability of using a 20 button instrument in the context of a traditional Irish session, where it can absolutely be made to work, just like single row melodeons which have similar challenges.  

I was generalising a little because audiences were mentioned earlier, but I fully appreciate your point about 20-button instruments working in the context of a session. I didn't want to be too specific - maybe I should have been...

Edited November 22, 2023 by Roger Hare

[Kathryn Wheeler]

13 hours ago, Leah Velleman said:

Obviously I don't get to decide where the thread goes.

 

But I'd like to put in one more little plea for the topic to be "When people modify tunes like this, how do they do it?"

 

(If you want to argue about 20 buttons vs 30, session keys vs transposing, or C/G boxes vs others... well, honestly, I don't think there is a right answer to those questions, because it all depends on what you play, with who, and why. But in any case, there's plenty of other threads about them.) 

Hi Leah,

It sounds like, like me, you’d find this a fascinating exercise as well as useful.  I call it "embroidering around the C sharps".

 

It occurred to me that things were veering away from what you want to know and I’m sorry if I had any part in that.

 

If you’d like to chat about this using actual examples of a specific tune feel free to message me. 

 

All I can say is what works for me in the situations I play in.  

 

After a while it becomes almost second nature and you find yourself using work arounds that you’ve used before.  So it can be hard to explain! 
 

Also how I’d explain it depends on how much knowledge of music theory terms you already know.  And how you learn tunes (by ear, from dots). Looks like dots are ok since you shared some sheet music.

 

-  have a friend play the C sharp-ish section of tune slowly or play a YouTube video at a slower playback speed.  Try out different things - be playful, open minded, don’t be afraid to make a terrible sound. Record yourself or get the reaction of a friend over which was the best option. 

 

- sing the tune slowly whilst playing your concertina version. See if it goes (not everyone can do that but hey worth a try!)
 

- input the tricky bars into Musescore (which is free) or similar sheet music writing app/program.  It can play it back to you.  Input one of your ideas into another staff beneath so it plays at the same time.  Does it sound good? Tweak it .. rinse and repeat 

 

- Look at the function the C sharp has in the bar - is it part of a run up or down to another note?  In which case we are going to have to get to that note in some other way.  Does the note you’re going to have to be in the same octave?
 

Is there an underlying harmony of an A chord (A C# E) or A seventh (A C# E G) often used to lead back to a D at the end of a phrase.  If so could you substitute one of those other chord notes.

 

Ideally try to come up with a workaround that fits the character of the piece and doesn’t stick out like a sore thumb.

 

Gosh there’s a lot more that could be said - maybe do research into writing countermelodies and harmonies if you want some tips eg contrary motion, using thirds or sixths.  What’s appropriate for one style of music may not be for others though.  eg in some traditions and in history it was the practice to play or sing different versions of the same tune at the same time (heterophony). 

 

It’s far easier to work with an example and not have to put this stuff into words isn’t it! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Kathryn Wheeler

[Peter Laban]

If you want to know what 'people do' the only way is to listen to as many players as you can and compare what way they take through a tune.

 

You haven't specified at all which music, style etc you want advice about so don't be surprised you receive a wide range of replies.

 

As far as Irish music goes, there are lots of ways to get through a tune. But it depends on the tune, the type of tune, style etc how you go about avoiding certain notes. Pretty much as I indicated earlier. There"s no one size fits all solution. It depends on the function the notes have  in the tune. It's much easier to avoid passing notes that have a less important function in the tune. The transposing suggestion was in response to the specific question on how to approach The road to Lisdoonvarna. In that tune there was an important melodic function for some of the C#s.

 

So if you have a specific tune you  want to know about, ask.   But don't expect a detailed answer to such a wide ranging unspecified general  question. There are more ways to skin this particular cat.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Peter Laban

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

On 11/20/2023 at 4:49 PM, Leah Velleman said:

if you ask me. At that point "just go play harmony for that part" might well be the best bet...

 

 

That sample of music ( I have quoted here).. would be easy to take down one place to C major avoiding the dreaded C sharps altogether😊You do not need to manually copy it.. just number it down using a tablature will do same job🌝🌝

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

I think that the joy of listening to live performance is the realness of it.. that iis I mean mistakes and all. We often get used to perfect performances with each note precise .. and then a musician shows their humanity by what we may term 'fluffing' a note, slipping up so slightly, or altering a tone whether by choice or fact they are so taken with performance; then they forget the rigid rules.

That, to me, makes it more exciting, than absolute adherence without any sole🌝.

[Steve Schulteis]

1 hour ago, SIMON GABRIELOW said:

...that iis I mean mistakes and all.

...more exciting, than absolute adherence without any sole🌝.

 

I sea what you did there. 😉

Edited November 22, 2023 by Steve Schulteis
Edited for irony

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

50 minutes ago, Steve Schulteis said:

 

I sea what you did there. 😉

Oh its that dam mobile phone keypad so tiny I often need to use magnifying glass to see it - at all!

No wonder spelling errors occur!

[Peter Laban]

17 hours ago, SIMON GABRIELOW said:

I think that the joy of listening to live performance is the realness of it.. that iis I mean mistakes and all. We often get used to perfect performances with each note precise .. and then a musician shows their humanity by what we may term 'fluffing' a note, slipping up so slightly, or altering a tone whether by choice or fact they are so taken with performance; then they forget the rigid rules.

That, to me, makes it more exciting, than absolute adherence without any sole🌝.

I was just listening to Séamus Ennis' 'Ceol, Scéalta Agus Amhrain', it had been a long time,  too long, since I last heard it. He gets badly lost in some of the tunes but, being the musician he was, he always finds his way back. It doesn't detract from the magnificence of the playing  but I am not sure many others could get away with that sort of thing.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Peter Laban

[LR71]

In a group no one's going to notice the concertina isn't playing C#, that's all there is to it really.  I play in a small session with a very good player who has a small Carroll and even he fades into the mix when we're all going.

 

My only experience with melodeons was with a very talented local musician, who sadly passed away recently.  He had a B/C but preferred to play this D melodeon, made by some maker popular with the Cajun crowd.  This thing was LOUD.  Outdoors, that is.  Once the management at a pub insisted we play inside even though the weather was nice, and all you could hear was this melodeon and my banjo, it was like the fiddles/whistles/bodhran were all miming.  Kind of hilarious fun, really.

 

My friend was so talented you just didn't notice the absence of Cnat notes, and you can surely teach yourself to do the same with a 20 button and its lack of a C#.  But like the link in my last post shows you're limited to substandard old instruments; you may as well get a substandard old 30 button, or a better old one, or a good plain jane modern concertina. 

Edited November 23, 2023 by LR71

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

My late father ( whose melodeon accordion I now play) used to very characteristically  over worry over the details of his accordion notes.. "Does it sound in tune". type of worries.. of course the more he kept hearing .. the more he was convinced notes were not right ( to his own ears at least)!

There again with accordion often there two reeds mildly tuned to slightly waver ( clash) which is prefered apparently ( I was told by a tuning professional when I had it tuned years later )..more continental players prefer that effect. Well my dad was from Poland, however he obviously did NOT have that view ( of the wavering clashing wobbling) accordion sound .

That accordion I use still some 40 years since he bought it and is.. incidentally in C and C SHARP.🌝

 

 

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by SIMON GABRIELOW
Stupid tiny phone keypad again!