From Anglo to.. Duet or English?

[Mattx92]

Hello! I'm interested in buying another Concertina! I got my first model my McNeela New Swan 2 and play it everyday. Id really like to get either a duet or English but I wasn't sure which one would be the best. I think the only difference is the button layout right? I'm pretty fresh and new to Concertinas, but I'm absolutely loving them so I definitely don't mind taking the time to learn them.

[David Barnert]

10 hours ago, Mattx92 said:

I think the only difference is the button layout right?

 

Right, but that’s a BIG difference here. On an English you need both hands to play the melody, as scale notes alternate between the right and left hands. That means you can play fast but are limited in what you can do in addition to the melody (drones, chords if you work them out carefully in advance). On a duet, the melody is on the right, and the left hand has buttons an octave lower than the right (but usually not quite as many) so you can play chords or counter-melodies.

 

Think of it this way: English Concertina emulates a violin. Duets emulate a piano.

[Little John]

15 hours ago, Mattx92 said:

Id really like to get either a duet or English but I wasn't sure which one would be the best.

 

To play as well as the Anglo, or instead of? Very few people play more than one system. Most of us settle on one and learn to get the best out of it. So ask yourself these questions: what makes you think a different system might be better? What is it you want to do that you can't with an Anglo? (Or think you can't do?)

 

I tried for some years to maintain proficiency on both English and Crane duet, but really it was fool's errand. In the end I ditched the English (more-or-less) to concentrate on the Crane. Should have done it sooner.

 

LJ

[Clive Thorne]

Apart from the general finger dexterity and (to some extent) bellows control, there is very little cross over between the three systems, as littleJohn suggests above, there is very little "Crossover" between the systems. You really have to think about them as completely different instruments.

 

Some people will play more than one type of concertina, in the same way some peole might play both a guitar and a trumpet (but not at the sme time!).

Edited September 25, 2023 by Clive Thorne

[Little John]

19 minutes ago, Clive Thorne said:

in the same way some peole might play both a guitar and a trumpet

 

The difference is that Joe Public will know whether you're playing a guitar or a trumpet (and be able to name them). I doubt if one in a million will know whether you're playing and Anglo or an English concertina; and even then will call it an accordion or a 'squeezebox'.

 

I actually play bouzouki and fretless bass guitar as well as concertina, but all three have completely different sounds and serve different purposes. The only purpose playing both English and Crane served was to hold me back.

 

[Apropos of nothing, I find it amusing that people happily refer to 'concertina doors' or 'concertina files' and yet can't recognise a concertina.]

[wunks]

10 hours ago, David Barnert said:

 

On a duet, the melody is on the right, and the left hand has buttons an octave lower than the right (but usually not quite as many) so you can play chords or counter-melodies.

 

Duets emulate a piano.

I play the Jeffries duet .  Not common but not as rare as some suppose.  One important thing a piano can do that a duet cannot is shift both hands down or up on the keyboard.  Duets compensate for this by incorporating an overlap zone essentially allowing for 4 options for playing each note therein.  Most ( ? ) duets keep the C scale up the middle, only sometimes including C in the overlap.  As a result much of the melody for dance tunes based on fiddle playing will need to be played on the left hand as the low violin G string notes are not in the overlap zone.  If the melody is restricted to the right hand it will need to be transposed to another key or raised an octave.

[wunks]

3 hours ago, Clive Thorne said:

Apart from the general finger dexterity and (to some extent) bellows control, there is very little cross over between the three systems, as littleJohn suggests above, there is very little "Crossover" between the systems. You really have to think about them as completely different instruments.

 

Some people will play more than one type of concertina, in the same way some peole might play both a guitar and a trumpet (but not at the sme time!).

The Jeff duet and Anglo are an exception.  Everything's in nearly the same place.  I picked up a 30b Anglo recently and was surprised at how similar. 

[David Barnert]

44 minutes ago, wunks said:

As a result much of the melody for dance tunes based on fiddle playing will need to be played on the left hand as the low violin G string notes are not in the overlap zone.  If the melody is restricted to the right hand it will need to be transposed to another key or raised an octave.

 

Few traditional tunes go below the open D string on a fiddle, so for the most part they’re easily playable in the original key on the right hand.

 

40 minutes ago, wunks said:

The Jeff duet and Anglo are an exception.  Everything's in nearly the same place.  I picked up a 30b Anglo recently and was surprised at how similar.

 

I don’t play the Jeffries Duet and have never scrutinized the button layout, but Nick Robertshaw (remember him?) once told me that the JD was designed to be like an Anglo, but with separate rows for the push notes and the pull notes.

[wunks]

2 hours ago, David Barnert said:

 

Few traditional tunes go below the open D string on a fiddle, so for the most part they’re easily playable in the original key on the right hand.

 

 

I don’t play the Jeffries Duet and have never scrutinized the button layout, but Nick Robertshaw (remember him?) once told me that the JD was designed to be like an Anglo, but with separate rows for the push notes and the pull notes.

I knew "Big Nick" played the JD and had one changed to D core as I have done, probably for the same reasons.

[Mattx92]

These replies are excellent and filled with a ton of great info! I'm really glad I posted here. I never thought tof it like that. I figured id try to g t good at both, but you make a very valid point I never thought of. Learning two different ones would hold you back. I guess my main thing I'm wanting is more of a variety for chords, I enjoy my Anglo but sometimes I do wish I could have certain notes on push and pull to make a wonderful chord. 

[Clive Thorne]

2 minutes ago, Mattx92 said:

These replies are excellent and filled with a ton of great info! I'm really glad I posted here. I never thought tof it like that. I figured id try to g t good at both, but you make a very valid point I never thought of. Learning two different ones would hold you back. I guess my main thing I'm wanting is more of a variety for chords, I enjoy my Anglo but sometimes I do wish I could have certain notes on push and pull to make a wonderful chord. 

That's the "joy" of anglo - working within its limitations.

Of course you can always stick with the anglo but go for more buttons!

[Clive Thorne]

5 hours ago, wunks said:

The Jeff duet and Anglo are an exception.  Everything's in nearly the same place.  I picked up a 30b Anglo recently and was surprised at how similar. 

You are correct of course. I'd forgotten about the Jeffries duet.

[Little John]

9 hours ago, Mattx92 said:

I guess my main thing I'm wanting is more of a variety for chords, I enjoy my Anglo but sometimes I do wish I could have certain notes on push and pull to make a wonderful chord.

 

OK, so if that's the issue then it's either follow @Clive Thorne's advice to stick within the limitations of the Anglo or to get one with more buttons or change to a duet. The English won't really help you - unless you're playing only chords or only melody (but not both at the same time).

[Mikefule]

"The only difference is the button layout."  Nope, they are fundamentally different instruments that happen to bear a passing resemblance.  The violin and guitar are both stringed instruments with a broad shallow body and a long neck with tuning pegs, but the resemblance ends there.

 

The Anglo is heavily biased towards a small subset of closely related keys.  Even the ones that have loads and loads of extra buttons are not fully chromatic across their entire range; that is, some of the accidentals only appear once even though the instrument covers several octaves.  Each button produces two notes, one on the draw and one on the push.  Some notes are duplicated.  At first sight, there is no "logical" arrangement to the buttons, but the more you play, the more you realise that each one is in "just the right place".   The Anglo follows the internal logic of music, rather than the abstract logic of mathematics.  The rows are orientated more or less vertically when the instrument is being held.  The low notes are on the bottom left, and the high notes are on the bottom right.  The Anglo has hand straps which pass over the back of the hand, and these are essential to be able to play it. (Ignoring small novelty instruments with very few buttons.)

 

The English is designed almost completely logically.  You get one note per button, whether it is push or pull.  It is completely chromatic.  The rows are orientated more or less horizontally when the instrument is being played.  The English has a thumb strap and a "pinky rest" and is usually played without straps across the back of the hands.  The most distinctive aspect of the English is that a simple major scale alternates between left hand and right hand, with the lower notes towards the player and the higher notes further away.

 

There are several very different systems of duet, so it is misleading to think of "the duet" in the same way as we think of "the Anglo" or "the English."  Duet players no doubt have their reasons for preferring one system over another.

 

Duets are designed to be almost a portable piano, with the layout enabling a full and rich accompaniment to any melody.  As I understand it, the compass of the left hand overlaps the compass of the right hand which allows a whole load of musical opportunities not available on Anglo or English.

 

As a general rule, it is difficult to swap between the systems.  However, it is not impossible.   A few people play Anglo and English regularly.  I know someone who plays English, but also plays melodeon, which has some similarities in layout to an Anglo.  If you play two systems of concertina, I suspect the trick is to see them as two completely different instruments and ignore the superficial similarities.

 

From my personal experience, I tried hard and failed with the English, and took to the Anglo fairly easily.  However, I had some experience with harmonica and melodeon which share the layout of the main two rows of an Anglo.

[Anglo-Irishman]

19 hours ago, Little John said:

I actually play bouzouki and fretless bass guitar as well as concertina, but all three have completely different sounds and serve different purposes. The only purpose playing both English and Crane served was to hold me back.

I'm another multi-instrumentalist, and apart from the concertina, I also play stringed instruments. I feel comfortable with 5-string banjo and Autoharp, both solo and as accompaniment to my own singing, and can work up decent accompaniments on Waldzither and guitar. Each of these sounds different from the others, and offers different capabilities for arrangements. Also, some things are easy on one instrument, but more difficult on another. So yes, I need them all!!

Switching from one instrument to the other - even during a gig - is no great problem, because they are so different in shape, size and weight. When I take up one of therm, my brain recognises it immediately, and loads the appropriate routine in my "music processor."

My Anglo is part of the mix. I use it for solos, accompaniments and ensemble work. Needless to say, my brain never confuses it with any of the other instruments.

 

Once, when comparing my instruments, I realised that my anglo was the only "diatonic" in the bunch. Its C and G rows were super for solos or accompaniments in those keys, and for accompaniments in D and F. But the Autoharp had six keys available, and with a capo, the fretted instruments could be played easily in otherwise awkward keys.

So I read up about the duets, and decided that the Crane was the one for me. Completely chromatic, like a piano, so capable of accompanying any tune, whether sung by a bass, a tenor or a soprano.

So I bought one.

It was fun!

Squeezing bellows and pressing buttons was familiar to me, and I even found out that the layout could be regarded like a conjunction of banjo and mandolin: easy chords on the left, clear scales on the right.

I found out that some - very few - techniques were easier than on the Anglo; however, a few techniques were still easier on the Anglo. And after a while I realised that  - because I was playing to accompany my singing - I was playing the Crane in the Anglo's easy keys of C, G and F!

 

So the Crane is now in "retirement," and I've upgraded my Anglo, so it's really good when I need that free-reed sound!

 

Under other circumstaces, I might have ditched the Anglo, but as it is, the added value of the duet was not sufficient to justify the effort of mastering it at the expense of my Anglo progress.

 

Your mileage may vary!

Cheers,

John

[Lester Bailey]

I'm mostly a melodeon player but decided I wanted to play a concertina. Tried an anglo as it seemed the natural progression from the melodeon but just could not get on with it due to, in my mind, it being too alike but too different to the melodeon. So I now I play an English which I found easier due to it being completely different.  YMMV